"St Kilda's riches may force Maguire to move on"
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Saintschampions08 wrote:What?Spinner wrote:I still cannot believe he is not in.
One of the best CHB in the league when on fire. Truly damaging.
He hasn't been on fire for 3 years...
Not only that, he's played a handful of games and is only now stringing together some games injury free ...
Do you honestly think Geelong will pick Matthew Egan as soon as he's fit next year?
I thought we were 12 games into the season.....More than half way through....thus that would hardly suggest picking Goose 'as soon as he is fit'.
And how does keeping him on ice for the finals make sense (another post) in the slightest....You would definitely want any player stinging games at AFL level before promoting him to the seniors for the finals.
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Junior
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Firstly he has done well to get back playing and he looks very fit. His body must be going well as he has now strung together half a season.
Having seen him play now on 3 occassions this year , the reality is that he is just not the same player. Not that I would expect him to be given the severity of the injuries that he has had.At his best he was in the top few CHB in the comp.
My memory of him at this best was his ability to take contested marks especially being third man up in a contest, his run off of half back and his long kicking. Unfortunately the game has changed in the last three years and teams are now reluctant to bomb it long to a contest so that eliminates his marking ability. He was always a long kick but not an accurate pass of the football he used to run and then kick it 50-60 metres. We no longer play like this and his long bombs would be turned over and cause us a problem. Even at his best he could be exposed by a quick leading forward and this is even more evident after the injuries.
What I have seen at VFL level is that he still has an unlimited amount of courage and is still a good contested mark, although I do think that he is now pushed off of the football easier than in the past, perhaps he does not have the same strenght in the legs. He reads the ball through the air as well as he as ever done. VFL football will have more bombs into the forward line as the skill level is not as high, so this suits Matt. What is happening is that sides kick to his man on the lead as he cannot keep up with them and since the rule changes with touching of the arms he gives away a lot of frees as he is struggling to keep up. His kicking to a teammate is poor and he turns the ball over a lot and he still likes to bomb the ball long, you may get away with at VFL level but not AFL Level.
He is clearly looking better up forward where he reads the play well and can make the play meaning his lack of pace is not as big an issue. He is an okay kick at goal and of course due to his marking ability does provide the get out clause should you need to bomb it into the forward fifty. His best football at VFL lecel this year has been up forward.
As much as I hate to say it he is at best a back up backman who I fear would be exposed at AFL level. I believe his only chance of making a regular comeback to AFL football is as a forward, the problem being that Kosi and Roo are clearly ahead of him. Maybe we could think outside of the square and consider playing Roo as the lead up forward who can move where he likes and Maquire at CHF. The issue would then be Kosi and him in the same forward line as can they provide froward pressure.
I hope he at least gets to play his 100th as he is a credit to himself to come back from what he went through.
But on the games I have seen he is not the Maquire of old and is not in our best 22 and I was standing just in front of Paul Couch on SUnday and he msut have been wearing Rose coloured glasses, but as his uncle what is he supposed to say.
Heres hoping Matt proves me wrong and comes back bigger and better than ever.
Having seen him play now on 3 occassions this year , the reality is that he is just not the same player. Not that I would expect him to be given the severity of the injuries that he has had.At his best he was in the top few CHB in the comp.
My memory of him at this best was his ability to take contested marks especially being third man up in a contest, his run off of half back and his long kicking. Unfortunately the game has changed in the last three years and teams are now reluctant to bomb it long to a contest so that eliminates his marking ability. He was always a long kick but not an accurate pass of the football he used to run and then kick it 50-60 metres. We no longer play like this and his long bombs would be turned over and cause us a problem. Even at his best he could be exposed by a quick leading forward and this is even more evident after the injuries.
What I have seen at VFL level is that he still has an unlimited amount of courage and is still a good contested mark, although I do think that he is now pushed off of the football easier than in the past, perhaps he does not have the same strenght in the legs. He reads the ball through the air as well as he as ever done. VFL football will have more bombs into the forward line as the skill level is not as high, so this suits Matt. What is happening is that sides kick to his man on the lead as he cannot keep up with them and since the rule changes with touching of the arms he gives away a lot of frees as he is struggling to keep up. His kicking to a teammate is poor and he turns the ball over a lot and he still likes to bomb the ball long, you may get away with at VFL level but not AFL Level.
He is clearly looking better up forward where he reads the play well and can make the play meaning his lack of pace is not as big an issue. He is an okay kick at goal and of course due to his marking ability does provide the get out clause should you need to bomb it into the forward fifty. His best football at VFL lecel this year has been up forward.
As much as I hate to say it he is at best a back up backman who I fear would be exposed at AFL level. I believe his only chance of making a regular comeback to AFL football is as a forward, the problem being that Kosi and Roo are clearly ahead of him. Maybe we could think outside of the square and consider playing Roo as the lead up forward who can move where he likes and Maquire at CHF. The issue would then be Kosi and him in the same forward line as can they provide froward pressure.
I hope he at least gets to play his 100th as he is a credit to himself to come back from what he went through.
But on the games I have seen he is not the Maquire of old and is not in our best 22 and I was standing just in front of Paul Couch on SUnday and he msut have been wearing Rose coloured glasses, but as his uncle what is he supposed to say.
Heres hoping Matt proves me wrong and comes back bigger and better than ever.
A champion team will always beat a team of champions.
From a StKFC perspective:
We won't trade him. Why would we? We've seen what he can do, he's tearing it up in the magoos and we're probably going to have a vacancy next year which he'll slot into nicely.
Plus, there's the investment side. We drafted him, developed him, and then when he was injured, we kept him on board, paid for all his surgery and rehabilitation. He's an excellent clubman and well worth keeping around.
We won't get his worth at the trade table. Vultures are circling using terms like 'injury prone' and 'what we're willing to give up'. If he's having trouble cracking the side, why would we trade him for a crap draft pick and/or a spud who's going to have more trouble cracking the side?
From Goose's perspective:
He'll be tempted. Naturally. Key backmen are highly sought after, he's in his prime, and likely there'll be dollars chucked his way by sides guaranteeing him a spot.
But should he make the move? Cain Ackland is a cautionary tale of chasing the dollars.
He's popular around the Saints, part of our long-term plans, and has a real chance at a premiership with us.
I'm hoping he'll stick with us.
We won't trade him. Why would we? We've seen what he can do, he's tearing it up in the magoos and we're probably going to have a vacancy next year which he'll slot into nicely.
Plus, there's the investment side. We drafted him, developed him, and then when he was injured, we kept him on board, paid for all his surgery and rehabilitation. He's an excellent clubman and well worth keeping around.
We won't get his worth at the trade table. Vultures are circling using terms like 'injury prone' and 'what we're willing to give up'. If he's having trouble cracking the side, why would we trade him for a crap draft pick and/or a spud who's going to have more trouble cracking the side?
From Goose's perspective:
He'll be tempted. Naturally. Key backmen are highly sought after, he's in his prime, and likely there'll be dollars chucked his way by sides guaranteeing him a spot.
But should he make the move? Cain Ackland is a cautionary tale of chasing the dollars.
He's popular around the Saints, part of our long-term plans, and has a real chance at a premiership with us.
I'm hoping he'll stick with us.
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BringBackMadDog
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Junior Wrote:
Excellent post, I think a few here on this site are judging Goose on what they saw 3 years ago. Unfortunately from what I have seen this year in the VFL, those days are behind him, he would seriously struggle on most of the key forwards these days who are all way too mobile for him and I don't think he suits a 3rd tall forward role as he is not mobile enough if the ball hits the deck. Goose was one of my favorite players but he has been crueled by injury.Firstly he has done well to get back playing and he looks very fit. His body must be going well as he has now strung together half a season.
Having seen him play now on 3 occassions this year , the reality is that he is just not the same player. Not that I would expect him to be given the severity of the injuries that he has had.At his best he was in the top few CHB in the comp.
My memory of him at this best was his ability to take contested marks especially being third man up in a contest, his run off of half back and his long kicking. Unfortunately the game has changed in the last three years and teams are now reluctant to bomb it long to a contest so that eliminates his marking ability. He was always a long kick but not an accurate pass of the football he used to run and then kick it 50-60 metres. We no longer play like this and his long bombs would be turned over and cause us a problem. Even at his best he could be exposed by a quick leading forward and this is even more evident after the injuries.
What I have seen at VFL level is that he still has an unlimited amount of courage and is still a good contested mark, although I do think that he is now pushed off of the football easier than in the past, perhaps he does not have the same strenght in the legs. He reads the ball through the air as well as he as ever done. VFL football will have more bombs into the forward line as the skill level is not as high, so this suits Matt. What is happening is that sides kick to his man on the lead as he cannot keep up with them and since the rule changes with touching of the arms he gives away a lot of frees as he is struggling to keep up. His kicking to a teammate is poor and he turns the ball over a lot and he still likes to bomb the ball long, you may get away with at VFL level but not AFL Level.
He is clearly looking better up forward where he reads the play well and can make the play meaning his lack of pace is not as big an issue. He is an okay kick at goal and of course due to his marking ability does provide the get out clause should you need to bomb it into the forward fifty. His best football at VFL lecel this year has been up forward.
As much as I hate to say it he is at best a back up backman who I fear would be exposed at AFL level. I believe his only chance of making a regular comeback to AFL football is as a forward, the problem being that Kosi and Roo are clearly ahead of him. Maybe we could think outside of the square and consider playing Roo as the lead up forward who can move where he likes and Maquire at CHF. The issue would then be Kosi and him in the same forward line as can they provide froward pressure.
I hope he at least gets to play his 100th as he is a credit to himself to come back from what he went through.
But on the games I have seen he is not the Maquire of old and is not in our best 22 and I was standing just in front of Paul Couch on SUnday and he msut have been wearing Rose coloured glasses, but as his uncle what is he supposed to say.
Heres hoping Matt proves me wrong and comes back bigger and better than ever.
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Spinner
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Its a pretty safe opinion to state that the football club wont want to trade him....But I can hardly see the club justifying a contact of his true worth without the bloke playing seniors this year, and the doubt that has been cast over injury.goodie wrote:From a StKFC perspective:
We won't trade him. Why would we? We've seen what he can do, he's tearing it up in the magoos and we're probably going to have a vacancy next year which he'll slot into nicely.
Plus, there's the investment side. We drafted him, developed him, and then when he was injured, we kept him on board, paid for all his surgery and rehabilitation. He's an excellent clubman and well worth keeping around.
We won't get his worth at the trade table. Vultures are circling using terms like 'injury prone' and 'what we're willing to give up'. If he's having trouble cracking the side, why would we trade him for a crap draft pick and/or a spud who's going to have more trouble cracking the side?
From Goose's perspective:
He'll be tempted. Naturally. Key backmen are highly sought after, he's in his prime, and likely there'll be dollars chucked his way by sides guaranteeing him a spot.
But should he make the move? Cain Ackland is a cautionary tale of chasing the dollars.
He's popular around the Saints, part of our long-term plans, and has a real chance at a premiership with us.
I'm hoping he'll stick with us.
Anyone going to another club can increase their value, but the case with Goose is that his price to potential value is considerably high and it is likely other clubs are more likely to take the risk and offer a fairer contract.
At the end of the day its not all about 'chasing dollars' - the difference is that this is his career, and one that is limited - players dont play until 65. Loyalty is only a small factor, much greater is the security of the individual, and the individual's family and future. I fear we might be heading towards a situation in which we may lose him and that would be upsetting.
But, on the other hand players shouldnt be gifted games as we are playing for the now - but I truly hope he forces his way in soon!
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maverick
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With you on every word 100%Junior wrote:Firstly he has done well to get back playing and he looks very fit. His body must be going well as he has now strung together half a season.
Having seen him play now on 3 occassions this year , the reality is that he is just not the same player. Not that I would expect him to be given the severity of the injuries that he has had.At his best he was in the top few CHB in the comp.
My memory of him at this best was his ability to take contested marks especially being third man up in a contest, his run off of half back and his long kicking. Unfortunately the game has changed in the last three years and teams are now reluctant to bomb it long to a contest so that eliminates his marking ability. He was always a long kick but not an accurate pass of the football he used to run and then kick it 50-60 metres. We no longer play like this and his long bombs would be turned over and cause us a problem. Even at his best he could be exposed by a quick leading forward and this is even more evident after the injuries.
What I have seen at VFL level is that he still has an unlimited amount of courage and is still a good contested mark, although I do think that he is now pushed off of the football easier than in the past, perhaps he does not have the same strenght in the legs. He reads the ball through the air as well as he as ever done. VFL football will have more bombs into the forward line as the skill level is not as high, so this suits Matt. What is happening is that sides kick to his man on the lead as he cannot keep up with them and since the rule changes with touching of the arms he gives away a lot of frees as he is struggling to keep up. His kicking to a teammate is poor and he turns the ball over a lot and he still likes to bomb the ball long, you may get away with at VFL level but not AFL Level.
He is clearly looking better up forward where he reads the play well and can make the play meaning his lack of pace is not as big an issue. He is an okay kick at goal and of course due to his marking ability does provide the get out clause should you need to bomb it into the forward fifty. His best football at VFL lecel this year has been up forward.
As much as I hate to say it he is at best a back up backman who I fear would be exposed at AFL level. I believe his only chance of making a regular comeback to AFL football is as a forward, the problem being that Kosi and Roo are clearly ahead of him. Maybe we could think outside of the square and consider playing Roo as the lead up forward who can move where he likes and Maquire at CHF. The issue would then be Kosi and him in the same forward line as can they provide froward pressure.
I hope he at least gets to play his 100th as he is a credit to himself to come back from what he went through.
But on the games I have seen he is not the Maquire of old and is not in our best 22 and I was standing just in front of Paul Couch on SUnday and he msut have been wearing Rose coloured glasses, but as his uncle what is he supposed to say.
Heres hoping Matt proves me wrong and comes back bigger and better than ever.
I may be wrong in saying this but it seems the people who have seen Goose play a few times this year at Sandy are the ones with doubts on if he is now good enough, after all his injuries, to get a game this year and the people who want him in havent seen him play but are hoping he can play like he did in 2005. Not sure if I am right with that theory or not.
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BringBackMadDog
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I may be wrong in saying this but it seems the people who have seen Goose play a few times this year at Sandy are the ones with doubts on if he is now good enough, after all his injuries, to get a game this year and the people who want him in havent seen him play but are hoping he can play like he did in 2005. Not sure if I am right with that theory or not.
Absolutely right mate, He is a ripper of a bloke, had the good fortune to chat to him a few times, but i think the speed of the game is going to test him
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Animal Enclosure
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I don't buy the old 'the games changed' chestnut.
With the rolling zone teams have been forced to bomb the ball long regularly against us. There is less space to short pass into & the ball doesn't progress up the field as quickly as it did without the zone. As a result teams have to kick the ball long and high into their forward line where Goose would be very valuable.
If anything, the game has changed to suit him.
There is a role there... it's just filled by someone else at present who is doing a pretty reasonable job.
With the rolling zone teams have been forced to bomb the ball long regularly against us. There is less space to short pass into & the ball doesn't progress up the field as quickly as it did without the zone. As a result teams have to kick the ball long and high into their forward line where Goose would be very valuable.
If anything, the game has changed to suit him.
There is a role there... it's just filled by someone else at present who is doing a pretty reasonable job.
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BAM! (shhhh)
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We really shouldn't be surprised that articles considering whether Maguire will be at the Saints next year are starting to surface. Surely it's a question that becomes more pertinent with each week he can't find a spot in the senior team.
As has been pointed out - regardless of speculation on skill - he's either got to displace someone from a very stingy backline to get in for '09, or await injury.
Given his history, and given teams willing to give him a go, salary won't even come into it - a shot at AFL level will... and even Hudghton's retirement doesn't guarantee a spot in a team that will have Dawson, Blake, Fisher and Gilbert playing.
The question though is not whether Goose would be able to get a shot at AFL level (he would) it will be what he can do with it, and in what time frame.
I would bet that all things being equal, most teams would have given him a shot by now, lacking a backline whose performance is rivaled by the history books rather than the opposition. While those watching him at VFL level may doubt his speed, given his success swinging forward, you'd certainly think that a Carlton (lacking in key backs, and without a 2nd forward) would love him, you'd think that an aging Sydney would love him, you'd think that others would also love him... but won't be able to find a trade fit.
You'd think that Goose will be looking to assure himself of an AFL spot next year, and try to get back to his best (whether or not he ever reaches it) at the top level, rather than fight for a place.
The attributes that made Goose a quality back were hardness at the ball, marking, closing speed, and endurance. The attributes that had him among the top CHBs going around were long kicking and endurance to run off his man (I've thought a few times that if he gets a crack this year, the thing he needs to do to make himself a fixture is bust the flood with a 60m shot at goal when we're setting up outside a flooded 50 - if he still can). As a CHB flat out running speed is less important than closing speed amongst a good back 6 - prior to this year, the way to outpoint Fisher was typically on a lead, and while by cutting that out, Fisher has been jawdroppingly good defensively, you never saw to many complaints about Fisher's defense, because beating him on the lead generally either invited a 3rd man up inside 50, or got you the ball out on the wing - your CHB doesn't end up your sole back against a Brendan Fevola.
If Goose has lost his closing speed, it will limit him (closing speed is to backmen what acceleration is to forwards), but won't preclude him from being a good AFL backman (or even a forward) given other attributes.
It may well however keep him out of the Saints 22.
And if he's out of the Saints 22 on merit, as much as I want him there, I'm not going to begrudge him a shot elsewhere.
As has been pointed out - regardless of speculation on skill - he's either got to displace someone from a very stingy backline to get in for '09, or await injury.
Given his history, and given teams willing to give him a go, salary won't even come into it - a shot at AFL level will... and even Hudghton's retirement doesn't guarantee a spot in a team that will have Dawson, Blake, Fisher and Gilbert playing.
The question though is not whether Goose would be able to get a shot at AFL level (he would) it will be what he can do with it, and in what time frame.
I would bet that all things being equal, most teams would have given him a shot by now, lacking a backline whose performance is rivaled by the history books rather than the opposition. While those watching him at VFL level may doubt his speed, given his success swinging forward, you'd certainly think that a Carlton (lacking in key backs, and without a 2nd forward) would love him, you'd think that an aging Sydney would love him, you'd think that others would also love him... but won't be able to find a trade fit.
You'd think that Goose will be looking to assure himself of an AFL spot next year, and try to get back to his best (whether or not he ever reaches it) at the top level, rather than fight for a place.
The attributes that made Goose a quality back were hardness at the ball, marking, closing speed, and endurance. The attributes that had him among the top CHBs going around were long kicking and endurance to run off his man (I've thought a few times that if he gets a crack this year, the thing he needs to do to make himself a fixture is bust the flood with a 60m shot at goal when we're setting up outside a flooded 50 - if he still can). As a CHB flat out running speed is less important than closing speed amongst a good back 6 - prior to this year, the way to outpoint Fisher was typically on a lead, and while by cutting that out, Fisher has been jawdroppingly good defensively, you never saw to many complaints about Fisher's defense, because beating him on the lead generally either invited a 3rd man up inside 50, or got you the ball out on the wing - your CHB doesn't end up your sole back against a Brendan Fevola.
If Goose has lost his closing speed, it will limit him (closing speed is to backmen what acceleration is to forwards), but won't preclude him from being a good AFL backman (or even a forward) given other attributes.
It may well however keep him out of the Saints 22.
And if he's out of the Saints 22 on merit, as much as I want him there, I'm not going to begrudge him a shot elsewhere.
"Everything comes to he who hustles while he waits"
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evertonfc
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I have it on good authority that is Goose is getting a little restless but wants to stay and is committed to St Kilda.
Besides, we will not be compensated at trade week what we think he is worth.
And we're talking about a player who we've put an enourmous amount of rehab work into, so I fully expect the club wants to keep him and I would hope he can be retained.
Still, watch this space, especially if he doesn't get a game and Max plays on in 2010.
Besides, we will not be compensated at trade week what we think he is worth.
And we're talking about a player who we've put an enourmous amount of rehab work into, so I fully expect the club wants to keep him and I would hope he can be retained.
Still, watch this space, especially if he doesn't get a game and Max plays on in 2010.
Clueless and mediocre petty tyrant.
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saintly
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max did say at his re-signing late last year that this would be his final year. however he can of course change his mind.ohwhenthesaints! wrote:I think many have highlighted, that it will have a lot to do with if Max plays on next year or not....
hoever, if twe won the premiership i am 100% sure he will retire
Here's the thing, would Goose play with Sandy with the same level of intensity that he would play in the seniors? I am certainly not accusing him of thinking himself above everyone else, but his heart is probably with the boys given that he has been there done that. I am sure given a run in the seniors that he would probably play with a bit more passion....plugger66 wrote:I may be wrong in saying this but it seems the people who have seen Goose play a few times this year at Sandy are the ones with doubts on if he is now good enough, after all his injuries, to get a game this year and the people who want him in havent seen him play but are hoping he can play like he did in 2005. Not sure if I am right with that theory or not.
I would hope he is trying 100% afterall he hasnt been given a game yet so why would he even subconsciously cost.ohwhenthesaints! wrote:Here's the thing, would Goose play with Sandy with the same level of intensity that he would play in the seniors? I am certainly not accusing him of thinking himself above everyone else, but his heart is probably with the boys given that he has been there done that. I am sure given a run in the seniors that he would probably play with a bit more passion....plugger66 wrote:I may be wrong in saying this but it seems the people who have seen Goose play a few times this year at Sandy are the ones with doubts on if he is now good enough, after all his injuries, to get a game this year and the people who want him in havent seen him play but are hoping he can play like he did in 2005. Not sure if I am right with that theory or not.
One could argue that he has been playing 100%, but how long to we expect him to continue to do so with no reward for effort? He would be endeavouring to break into the side, and my point was that his intensity may benefit as a result....not his skill level.plugger66 wrote:I would hope he is trying 100% afterall he hasnt been given a game yet so why would he even subconsciously cost.ohwhenthesaints! wrote:Here's the thing, would Goose play with Sandy with the same level of intensity that he would play in the seniors? I am certainly not accusing him of thinking himself above everyone else, but his heart is probably with the boys given that he has been there done that. I am sure given a run in the seniors that he would probably play with a bit more passion....plugger66 wrote:I may be wrong in saying this but it seems the people who have seen Goose play a few times this year at Sandy are the ones with doubts on if he is now good enough, after all his injuries, to get a game this year and the people who want him in havent seen him play but are hoping he can play like he did in 2005. Not sure if I am right with that theory or not.
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http://www.saints.com.au/season2009/new ... fault.aspx
Hayes backs Maguire’s attitude
By Luke Holmesby
4:47 PM Thu 25 June, 2009
MATT Maguire is doing everything he can to earn a recall to St Kilda’s senior team but teammate Lenny Hayes says there is no questioning his attitude as he looks to return to the side.
A newspaper report this week suggested Maguire may look elsewhere at season’s end to further his AFL career, but Hayes, who lives with Maguire, says he is doing everything he can to be selected.
“He has been really good. There is going to be a bit of frustration there but you wouldn’t really know it. He goes out there, he trains really hard and he is a professional bloke,â€
Hayes backs Maguire’s attitude
By Luke Holmesby
4:47 PM Thu 25 June, 2009
MATT Maguire is doing everything he can to earn a recall to St Kilda’s senior team but teammate Lenny Hayes says there is no questioning his attitude as he looks to return to the side.
A newspaper report this week suggested Maguire may look elsewhere at season’s end to further his AFL career, but Hayes, who lives with Maguire, says he is doing everything he can to be selected.
“He has been really good. There is going to be a bit of frustration there but you wouldn’t really know it. He goes out there, he trains really hard and he is a professional bloke,â€
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Rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation, continuing steadfastly..!!
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The only consolation in this is that we have a former Geelong player, who is not in the media, going to the press and saying what he has said.
My take is that Geelong are very worried about us to put out one of their former players attempting to destabilise St Kilda by saying Maguire will leave if he does not get a game and, to boot, saying we are no good and should have lost our last two games including one to a bottom team, "if they had 2 key forwards".
And their former player is saying this in the build up to a minor round match between St Kilda and Geelong.
Coincidence?
My take is that Geelong are very worried about us to put out one of their former players attempting to destabilise St Kilda by saying Maguire will leave if he does not get a game and, to boot, saying we are no good and should have lost our last two games including one to a bottom team, "if they had 2 key forwards".
And their former player is saying this in the build up to a minor round match between St Kilda and Geelong.
Coincidence?