Importance of getting Dempster fit!!!!

[Duggie]

Hopefully there are a couple of 'Dempsters' waiting in the wings should we need them, either through injury or loss of form.

[meher baba]

Couple of things

Dempster would have been more than Handy if given BOG by Lovell and Lyon......if he was handy with the ball, he would have been better without it.....his first role is stopping, second is creating.......who did he play on???? how much influence did they have????

MB - Would we be a better team with King 30yo 224games, Hudghton 33/231 and Dempster 25/75 games - all mature bodies.....all have played in more than 10 finals all have played in Grand Finals???? -- if they were all fit and ready to go

than

McEvoy 19yo 5games, Raph 23/45 (and zero confidence), Geary 21/23 (just running out of steam a bit) - all of whom have futures (as have Armo 21/16, Eddy 21/15, Lynch 18/0, Steven 19/0, Stanley 18/0)...

You can always look to improve the side.....regardless of how well you are travelling.....I saw weaknesses in all three I named above under extreme pressure - at this stage of thier development..

BM, I totally respect your views on football - you know a hell of a lot more than I do - and I totally agree with your point that - given that we are now engaged on a long runup to what we hope will be a winning performance in a GF - we should favour hard bodies and experience over promising youth.

So yes - barring injuries - definitely King over McEvoy, probably Max over Dawson (I know I'm in a minority on here about this, but I still think that's the way the chips will fall at a crunch), and probably (but I'm less sure about this) Dempster over Geary, and the likes of Gwilt, Eddy, Armo, Miles, etc. only coming into consideration if others are injured.

But not Dempster over Raph: not yet. I hope/expect that Ross will give Raph a few more games to see if he can get his confidence and form back to 2008 finals levels (and his physical condition: we can never be certain how big a factor the epilepsy is going to be week in/week out). If this can be achieved, I see Raph as an essential player for us in the finals, and possibly the difference between our winning and losing.

If he doesn't make it, I'd look first of all at having Dawson at CHB and letting Blake do more running. Failing that, my next option would probably be Miles.

I'm sorry, but I can't see Dempster playing the same role. He is the additional defender we possibly don't need ATM. Over 14 games this season, we have played 14 out of the 15 teams and have kept our opponents down to an average of around 60 points a game without Sean.

I know it's not an entirely meaningful stat, but I note that - since Dempster has come to the Saints - we have won 11 out of 19 games with him and 17 out of 20 games without him.

A lot of posters on here seem to think that Dempster is good at running the ball out of the backline. I have mainly only seen him delivering long, accurate kicks, plus the occasional shot at goal from outside 50. I can't recall ever having seen him run the ball and break lines like Fisher, Gilbert, Raph, Gram, etc.

I suspect that the Swans were hoping he would develop more of an attacking game - he is pretty quick and good by hand and feet - and his failure to do so is why they decided to get rid of him. Some players just don't develop as ball users, even if they seem to have the necessary skills. I'm not sure why this is, but it does happen.

I think we need to maximise our number of linebreakers, not our lockdown players, to beat the Cats. Has the post-injury Dempster suddenly developed linebreaking skills? I'm not sure.

On Sunday, we effectively beat them in a low-scoring shoot out. There were over 100 inside 50s in the game, and the Cats had more than us. We beat them because they missed a lot of targets (goals and marking players) when going forward, and we got them on the rebound by moving the ball quickly to our much more dangerous attacking unit.

I think we could play the Cats 100 times with the current lineup and still struggle to do any better than 50/50 at centre bounces and stoppages. They have an awesome midfield unit.

We will only beat their midfield by by-passing it as much as possible. That's where Dempster, with his long kicking, possibly makes more sense than Geary. But we need an in-form Raph too (and, of course, Fisher, Gilbert, Ray, BJ and - if he pulls his socks up a bit - Gram too). We need this many running/long kicking players because the Cats - as they showed on Sunday - are prepared to tag several of them.

GT suggested last week that Lyon might revert to a "lock down" style of play against the Cats on Sunday. GT was wrong, Lyon didn't do anything of the sort, which - to my mind - demonstrated that he had totally come of age as a coach.

If we had gone into the game on Sunday with lots of taggers trying to create endless stoppages, would we have won? I doubt it: the Cats simply have too many dangerous midfielders.

Anyway, these are just my opinions,

[bigcarl]

McEvoy 19yo 5games, Raph 23/45 (and zero confidence), Geary 21/23 (just running out of steam a bit) - all of whom have futures (as have Armo 21/16, Eddy 21/15, Lynch 18/0, Steven 19/0, Stanley 18/0).....

well if he does come in i hope it is for a similar type.

match-ups and negating and stopping the opposition is one thing (and very important) ... but so is winning your own ball and creating.

i think we've sometimes been overly-reactive in the past and have gone into matches with too much tag and too little talent.

the balance atm is about right IMO and i base that on the fact that we've won 14 straight and just beaten the best team in the land.

[matrix]

i like the bit about dempster being regarded as the fittest at the club.
we have some pretty fit blokes running around the park now!.

maybe a rotation from back thru the middle is a poss in the future?

[spert]

Guys, Dempster is a good player, but no champion, so let's not get carried away..it's a big step from VFL to AFL, especially after a knee reco. I would think Eddy may be next in line and maybe grabbing Geary's spot. I think Geary looked a bit out of his depth physically against Geelong, where Eddy looks to be a bit stronger in the body.

[BigMart]

No one is saying he is a 'champion' we have a few of those......

He is an essential player due to his flexibility (speed/endurance/size combination - he is a super athlete) he can lock down mediums as well as smalls (not talls) the point was about the number of dangerous mediums across HF in the teams in the finals race......they were listed

MB....

Would you want Raph to line up on
Chapman, SJ
Murphy, Gia, Higgins
Pendlebury, Thomas, Didak
Knights, Thompson

all dangerous HF's

Gilbo or Sam can take one.....the other is always prefered as a loose.....I would like to see Dempster locking on the other one.....

Dempster also has the ability to move to a wing and run with a danger if Gram or Ray are struggling - like Sun....and one of those can be freed up to run off HB...

Sean could run with Swan, Bartel, Griffin if they are hurting us...

and with Sean's 12-15 possesions they are giong to be pretty effective.....like the stats that Mini gets..

Raph on current form 2009 is not in our best 22, not even best 32.....Begley and Miles must be bewildered....

Dempster is NO Guy McKenna, but he will be in the seniors in the next fortnight - injury or not.

[SaintWodonga]

I thought Dempster was great last year, started slowly, but finished the year off well, rarely beaten and kicked some nice goals.

Brings 2 Grand Finals of experience to the club. Which could be very handy.

[mad saint guy]

The number of taggers we could potentially have is a bit of a worry. Baker, Jones, Dempster and McQualter is too many.

[Con Gorozidis]

i said this a month back and got bagged!

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... highlight=

[PJ]

I just can't see Ross changing 2 of the current back 6 not in one go anyway. The match ups and combinations are many and the only players that look at all suspect are Raph & Geary. Would he ditch Geary after 1 invisible game - not likely given his current stance on team stability yet perhaps it could prove to be defining for the strength and flexibility of the backline and if it's someone like Dempster he would need a good run at it - say 6 weeks. Remembering he's had a few good games at VFL but is still an unknown in our current lineup.

If both Max & Dempster were to play then at least one of either Blake or Zac must go - Zac is the more likely but I'd hate to lose this kind of player with the confidence he has at present and given the chemistry of our back 6..

[Milton66]

Raph is the obvious out ... same style/position of player, with Dempster IMO a better footballer ...

completely different style of player from what i've seen of dempster. one is a shutdown artist, the other is an offensive runner.

That explains all the offensive comments posted about Raph.

Boom boom.

[bigcarl]

Raph is the obvious out ... same style/position of player, with Dempster IMO a better footballer ...

completely different style of player from what i've seen of dempster. one is a shutdown artist, the other is an offensive runner.

That explains all the offensive comments posted about Raph.

Boom boom.

queen: "the peasants are revolting."
king: "i know."

[starsign]

I also think he would be a great option if a chapman or ablett goes forward. It was the only time CJ looked under pressure was playing full back on ablett. We ened someone to help him out (ablett goes forward and dempster gets him while CJ slips onto someone else or keeps going in the midfield.

good thinking!
and I would think the Dumpster is well in RL's planning come september

[fugazi]

BigMart...are you saying that our best defence no longer has Max in it?

Never thought I'd see the day....

[PJ]

How would this backline go? I'd still have Raph on the bench

Dempster Max Blake
Gilbert Zac Fisher

With Bakes on the bench coming in to take another small if needed

[plugger66]

How would this backline go? I'd still have Raph on the bench

Dempster Max Blake
Gilbert Zac Fisher

With Bakes on the bench coming in to take another small if needed

So you want one ruckman, on onballer and 2 backmen on the bench. it doesnt work that way. 3 on ballers and a ruckman have to be on the bench to be a successful side.

[sunsaint]

How would this backline go? I'd still have Raph on the bench

Dempster Max Blake
Gilbert Zac Fisher

With Bakes on the bench coming in to take another small if needed

So you want one ruckman, on onballer and 2 backmen on the bench. it doesnt work that way. 3 on ballers and a ruckman have to be on the bench to be a successful side.

you're splitting hairs plugger
we won on Sunday and "effectively" only had 1 ruckman.
Max has been a great warrior for the club, but I think the time is coming that Raph and Max will be interchangeable, the same goes for Baker.
As the legs get older, they look like they are jogging on the spot.
So it may be Raph for Max, get used to it.
The stability of Zac, Blake, Fisher and Gilbert has been outstanding.
People have forgotten the drive Dempster gave us before his injury in 08. And will be an automatic selection once match fit.
And I really just dont get the hatred for Raph, he walked back into a good side in what was the biggest pressure game of the year against the best opposition, he had a great work ethic, you couldnt say he was beaten by his opponent (especially in the air) and played 92% first game back.

[PJ]

So you want one ruckman, on onballer and 2 backmen on the bench. it doesnt work that way. 3 on ballers and a ruckman have to be on the bench to be a successful side.

So you think Raph and Bakes can only play back.

[Bernard Shakey]

Bakes is on his way out for mine.

Too slow, no penetration and no longer an effective tagger.

The game has passed him by.

[joffaboy]

Bakes is on his way out for mine.

Too slow, no penetration and no longer an effective tagger.

The game has passed him by.

The harsh reality is that this seems pretty close to the mark

[meher baba]

Bakes is on his way out for mine.

Too slow, no penetration and no longer an effective tagger.

The game has passed him by.

The harsh reality is that this seems pretty close to the mark

Gee, I don't know, I thought Bakes was the heart and soul of our win on Sunday. He never shirked a contest, no matter how tough, he smashed into opponents at every opportunity, and no Cats player who took a mark anywhere near him was allowed to get away with it without copping a bit of sweetly timed "unavoidable" impact.

[PJ]

Bakes is on his way out for mine.

Too slow, no penetration and no longer an effective tagger.

The game has passed him by.

You may be right but it seems Lyon still wants him in and I'm sure he's not just being nice. I still think he gives us a fair bit of teeth.