The Fox Report - Round 18

[rodgerfox]

It's clear that as the Fox Report revealed several weeks ago, our opponents now know the best way to beat us. Stop our run from defence, and you're in with a show. The problem for them is that we have the luxury of having 3 great running defenders in Sam Fisher, Jason Gram and Sam Gilbert. Hard to stop all three.
The problem for us is that Gilbert is hurt, Fisher is getting successfully tagged (and strangely used by Lyon) and Gram is a bit down on form. Put simply, we need these three guys in form come September or we're vunerable.

We do have more than that one string to our bow, however that is our best string. And in finals you really need your best options working. The pressure that goes on our mids when our running defenders aren't creating play, becomes immense. And really, the average depth starts to show when this happens.

Having said that, we're not really much different to the other contenders. Geelong need Mackie and Enright getting their hands on the ball, the same as Hawthorn need Guerra and Hodge winning it in defence. The life of a midfielder becomes far easier if you can confidently run to space, knowing that you'll be getting quality ball. But if you're forced to sprint the extra 30m into defence to fill a whole or contest a stoppage every time, the role of a midfielder changes totally. Then obviously in turn, the role of a forward changes too. This is why Mark Thompson tagged Goose at Docklands in early 2005, why Thomas tagged Joel Smith at the G in 2003 and why now all sensible coaches do their best to make sure guys like Heath Shaw and Sam Fisher aren't allowed easy ball in the back half.
It's also why I expect to see Nick Maxwell checked quite closely as we approach September. As mad as this sounds, he's actually impacting games quite heavily because he's being allowed to play an important role on his own terms. He's a spud, but a spud who's slipping under the radar. Will be interesting to see how Collingwood go if clubs nullify Maxwell as the 3rd man up.

Roos made sure the ball found it's way into the hands of Max and Blake on Saturday night. This what our opponents want. And what we don't want. Those guys aren't necessarily going to stuff up, but they don't create the play and break lines like Gram, Fisher and Gilbert. Stopping Gram, Fisher and Gilbert doesn't mean you'll win - it just means you're in with a show. Frankly, although that's a weakness for us it also shows what a difficult side we must be to play against. I mean, how do you beat us?
Win the contested footy? You still lose. Win the ruck? Lose. Nullify our run from defence? Lose. Keep Roo and Kosi quiet? Lose. Isolate our defence? Yep, still get rolled.

I sometimes think that a sign that you've 'made it' as an AFL footballer, is when you get tagged. When your influence on the game is sufficient to warrant the opposition making specific effort to take you out of the equation. If you agree with that theory, then it explains why we're a good side right now - we have over a dozen players who need to be stopped or they can impact the game. Geelong have been like this for a long time, and Hawthorn were last year too.

What I find most interesting about us this year, and perhaps it's in contradiction to the above, is that Lyon seems obsessed with players having roles. Guys like Gwilt, Eddy, Geary etc. who have people scratching their heads every week they are selected, are there to play a role.
They aren't picked on their ability, and I also don't believe that they are picked on their work ethic. They must be being picked because of a role that they play. The concept of 'roles' isn't new, I know. But the extent of it at Moorabbin at the moment certainly is.
I believe it's to the point where you will get picked simply because you can run hard. If you can run to a space on the ground when we have the ball, then run to a space on the ground when they have the ball you will get a game. If you can notch up numbers in certain areas then you will get a game.
This is why there is the perception of 'favourites'. The average footy follower looks for inclusions who can get the nut, or kick a winning goal, or directly influence the result of a match. But I genuinely don't think that's the train of thought with Ross Lyon.
I think Raph does certain things each week which most don't see, or are unaware of as being important to the team, and I believe that Eddy is doing some role that we're oblivious to. I think Dempster ditto, Gwilt the same and so on, and so on.
The problem with this, is that you have blokes in the team who aren't actually good footballers. Which means you then rely on your 'stars' to make the play. And if they don't, then there isn't anyone left to do it. The positive is, that this makes life easier for your 'stars', as the roles being played by the lesser lights make is easier for the stars to do what they do best.

Then again, I could be wrong. Lyon could just be picking these guys cause he thinks they're good.

Gardiner's calf is a worry. Although McEvoy is close to being a very good player I reckon. He's getting his hands on the nut but just not quite holding them - this is confidence, and you feel that he just needs to hold one of these big contested grabs to really get the ball rolling. And he'll need to. Once you pop a shoulder, it gets loose. Once it gets loose, it pops out again. For a ruckman who requires to have his arms up alot, this is not ideal. King might be a concern now.
Pretty handy goal from McEvoy on Saturday night too

Back to Gardiner's calf, and Gilbert's back, and Luke Ball's form etc.etc. Anyone else have a feeling we're resting players? Albeit slightly more discreetly than the Cats.

Milne has been awesome this year, but as a professional footballer, and as much as we'd all like to bash Jarrod Crouch, he let him under his skin far too easily on Saturday night.

I heard a comment from Riewoldt the other week about 'tapering' their training. He did pretty much confirm that we'd be starting a 'mini pre-season' shortly in preparation for being at peak fitness for the finals. For those who don't know what this means - effectively you bust your arrse on the track for a couple of weeks, and as a result are generally pretty flat and tired on match day during this time. This is usually the explanation for dominant teams appearing to drop off a bit heading into the finals. The other concept of tapering is infact the opposite. You reduce your training significantly leading up to the finals. This means that any niggles or stress that have built up over the season can be reduced prior to the finals.
Either way, there is an impact on the performance during this period. So don't get too worried about our efforts over the next month. We have some pretty switched on people looking after the welfare of the players, so regardless of what we hear in the media about 'not resting players' or 'still giving 110%' - don't believe it. Things like Lenny Hayes having 7 hitouts as 3rd man up on Saturday night are ways that smart coaches can give key players a rest without actually giving them a rest.

I saw another thread on the commentary, and I have to agree. It's really painful at the moment. Watching a replay of a Saints game right now, is like sitting in front of 3 opposition supporters at the game. The bias is incredible, and although it shouldn't be - it's very agitating. Broadcasters need to get fair dinkum, and acknowledge the bias of their commentators. They should simply say 'Ok, everyone knows you barrack for Carlton, so barrack for Carlton as much as you want.'
It's far more insulting when they pretend to hide it.
What they then need to do, is ensure that someone else in the box is barracking for the opposition. They can be as vias as they want, just makre sure there's someone else there to balance it up. This would make for entertaining viewing, and listening.

How savagely did Clinton Jones gets walloped on Saturday night? I hope he was crook, because it's become a real luxury to confidently say that at least one of our opponents' good players will have a reduced impact on the game. Watching McVeigh run riot on Saturday early made me realise how important Jones has been.

Very good, and important to win a game where we lost contested footy. We've lost that stat three times this year, and they have been our smallest wins. Clearly it's an area we want to do well in, but to still win when we're beaten in this area is very important. Infact we lost contested footy, were smashed in the ruck and lost our defensive run - yet still won the game away from home. Good effort. And lots to learn.

If you're well coached, you don't need a loss to learn. You can still learn when you're winning.

The longer the season goes, the more I think the MCG will suit us. We don't like being cramped. And I don't think silky pinpoint skills are a strength of ours. The fact that we're winning at Docklands, doesn't mean we can't win at the G. We've won at AAMI, won in Perth, won in Sydney, won indoors at Docklands and won outdoors at Docklands. Won in front of big crowds, won in front of small crowds.
If we get rolled in September, it won't be because of the ground being 4m wider.

We surely have the best leadership group in the comp. They drop players, without leaking it to the press. They don't get on the piiss and let the club down. They come up with their own 'Trademark'. They challenge each other. They stick together.

Very good culture at the club these days.

[maverick]

That was a good read, thanks RF.

[asiu]

onya mr fox

[matrix]

"They aren't picked on their ability, and I also don't believe that they are picked on their work ethic."
"I believe it's to the point where you will get picked simply because you can run hard."



ps: i agree on a lot of the other points

[The Craw]

What I find most interesting about us this year, and perhaps it's in contradiction to the above, is that Lyon seems obsessed with players having roles. Guys like Gwilt, Eddy, Geary etc. who have people scratching their heads every week they are selected, are there to play a role.
They aren't picked on their ability, and I also don't believe that they are picked on their work ethic. They must be being picked because of a role that they play. The concept of 'roles' isn't new, I know. But the extent of it at Moorabbin at the moment certainly is.

I find this observation quite interesting.

In the corporate world, positions are defined by SOP’s (standard operational procedures) and are designed and implemented so a business can operate, at a lower level, so that in theory any person can fulfill the roll regardless of skill level. If by chance some-one comes into that role and performs quite well, then they are indentified and as such given the opportunity to exit and progress in a more meaningful and important role.

If you follow that synergy with team process and structure, is RL in essence following a business module to develop his team?

[roxanne]

Great report. I agree - it must be frustrating to beat us in contested ball, nullify (to a point) our run from the backline, keep our star fowards quiet and still get rolled! I think it goes to another point you make - the roles that players are given. James Gwilt once said his role was to be the Hammil like big body in the forward line creating some mayhem and managing a few goals. I think Eddy has running role - create contests, hurt a few people and run hard enough to create links, hopefully between players who can dispose of it better than him. He's a hard nut. Dempster is actually a star player in under the radar clothing. Is often used as a stopper which hides the fact he's genuinely skilful. McEvoy is really turning into a player, holding his marks and becoming quite deft with the ball. Like him a lot. The only thing worrying me at the moment is our goal kicking accuracy. BJ and Joey can't buy a goal at the minute and we have a few players (Lenny, Ball, Ray for example) who couldn't kick one if their lives depended on it. We don't have a dead eye dick, Kosi looks the closest. That's one area we have to get really sharp in come September.

[Cairnsman]

great read

[White Winmar]

Nice work RF. Balanced and insightful, especially the part about nullifying our run out of defence. As much as I love the Max, he still causes my heart to leap into my throat when he has the ball under pressure. The swines certainly didn't seem to worry about him getting possessions.

[OneEyedSainter77]

Good post. Agree with most of it, can't really say anything else.

[aussiejones]

Tight games reveal our weaknesses .

Big wins are virtual training drills.

Roos put a lot of effort into the Swans game combined with a smaller ground ......and nearly pinched it.

Ross Lyon has a lot to think about .

Also , our guys cannot afford to be undiciplined (Milney).

[plugger66]

Well written but people who talk about weakness should remember that we just came off thrashing sides that are 3rd and 5th. We had a downer, Swans had an upper and we still won even if we were a bit lucky. We may be obsessed with winning 25 in a row but my bet is the coaching only care about 4 games out of our next 7. the Hawks this week as a win we probably stop the hawks making the 8 and hopefully 3 wins in the finals. I reckon they could give a stuff about the last 3 games so results or performances may not be to our usual in that period but there is no need to worry at all.

[OneEyedSainter77]

Well written but people who talk about weakness should remember that we just came off thrashing sides that are 3rd and 5th. We had a downer, Swans had an upper and we still won even if we were a bit lucky. We may be obsessed with winning 25 in a two by my bet is the coaching only care about 4 games out of our next 7. the Hawks this week as a win we probably stop the hawks making the 8 and hopefully 3 wins in the finals. I reckon they could give a stuff about the last 3 games so results or performances may not be to our usual in that period but there is no need to worry at all.

agree 100% I wish the finals started next week, it seems like we are just going through the motions every week now.

[Beno88]

Good point on our run from defence. Interesting to note that the two games Gilbert has missed has seen the two highest scores kicked against us.

[meher baba]

What I find most interesting about us this year, and perhaps it's in contradiction to the above, is that Lyon seems obsessed with players having roles. Guys like Gwilt, Eddy, Geary etc. who have people scratching their heads every week they are selected, are there to play a role.
They aren't picked on their ability, and I also don't believe that they are picked on their work ethic. They must be being picked because of a role that they play. The concept of 'roles' isn't new, I know. But the extent of it at Moorabbin at the moment certainly is.
I believe it's to the point where you will get picked simply because you can run hard. If you can run to a space on the ground when we have the ball, then run to a space on the ground when they have the ball you will get a game. If you can notch up numbers in certain areas then you will get a game.
This is why there is the perception of 'favourites'. The average footy follower looks for inclusions who can get the nut, or kick a winning goal, or directly influence the result of a match. But I genuinely don't think that's the train of thought with Ross Lyon.
I think Raph does certain things each week which most don't see, or are unaware of as being important to the team, and I believe that Eddy is doing some role that we're oblivious to. I think Dempster ditto, Gwilt the same and so on, and so on.
The problem with this, is that you have blokes in the team who aren't actually good footballers. Which means you then rely on your 'stars' to make the play. And if they don't, then there isn't anyone left to do it. The positive is, that this makes life easier for your 'stars', as the roles being played by the lesser lights make is easier for the stars to do what they do best.

I agree with you up to a point. Gwilt and Raph are attempting (with varying success) to fill specific roles: physical forward a la Hamill and linebreaking quarterback respectively. Dempster is presumably being eased back into footy, after which I assume he'll play mainly as a tagger (as he did with good effect in the second half on Sat night).

But I'll buggered if I can see what Eddy's "role" has been in recent weeks. Unless Ross has told him to go out and run all over the field in a somewhat slow-moving but persistent fashion, gather very few possessions and then turn most of them over to the opposition!!

[Sobraz]

But I'll buggered if I can see what Eddy's "role" has been in recent weeks. Unless Ross has told him to go out and run all over the field in a somewhat slow-moving but persistent fashion, gather very few possessions and then turn most of them over to the opposition!!

Agree that this must be Eddy's role, cos he's doing it to perfection...

Realistically his position must be the first to open up when one of Zac, Gilbo, Ball, Geary, Anyone, is ready to come in...

That aside, excellent report... The best of the season...

[desertsaint]

interesting that most posts on the forum are highlighting our poor defensive effort.
i was sick in bed and so listened to the match only, but the commentators were suggesting it was our mids that were getting well beaten, meaning less pressure on the ball carrier/kicker entering our defensive 50, and also giving less options for the run/kick out of defence.
given that one of the commentators was aussie jones, i'd put a lot of credibility in those observations.

[BringBackMadDog]

interesting that most posts on the forum are highlighting our poor defensive effort.
i was sick in bed and so listened to the match only, but the commentators were suggesting it was our mids that were getting well beaten, meaning less pressure on the ball carrier/kicker entering our defensive 50, and also giving less options for the run/kick out of defence.
given that one of the commentators was aussie jones, i'd put a lot of credibility in those observations.

Spot on we got walloped in contested footy and clearances all game, and that is a dangerous thing on a small ground, one kick and its in the forward 50. That is the problem when you don't have another hard in and under to support Lenny, if he is tagged out of the game we are vulnerable. Mind you Sydney are one of the best clearance teams in the comp so if we were ever going to be beaten in this stat it was this week.

[undecided]

Does the fox report remind anybody of the stool sample from our old friend violentstool

[meher baba]

interesting that most posts on the forum are highlighting our poor defensive effort.
i was sick in bed and so listened to the match only, but the commentators were suggesting it was our mids that were getting well beaten, meaning less pressure on the ball carrier/kicker entering our defensive 50, and also giving less options for the run/kick out of defence.
given that one of the commentators was aussie jones, i'd put a lot of credibility in those observations.

Spot on we got walloped in contested footy and clearances all game, and that is a dangerous thing on a small ground, one kick and its in the forward 50. That is the problem when you don't have another hard in and under to support Lenny, if he is tagged out of the game we are vulnerable. Mind you Sydney are one of the best clearance teams in the comp so if we were ever going to be beaten in this stat it was this week.

That's right, we were outgunned in the middle.

Without Ball in there, our opponents only need to blot Lenny out of the game and they can't help but get on top.

The good news is that Brett Kirk seems to be just about the only guy in the AFL who can be guaranteed to keep Lenny quiet.

[InkerSaint]

Yep - CJ not at his best apparently.

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... p?p=787243

[#1GILL]

[Milton66]

Given that Ball, Dal and Milne are alll big name stars who have been dropped, the reason players like Eddy and Co get a game is because they are disciplined enough to do what's required.

As a student of the game, surely you know that less talented players are required to play a "role" that allows the stars to play their bit?

That's why stars win matches, which you have often stated that it's the top 12 that win you games. So what's the confusion about these players? And who would you select in their place?

Leigh Matthews was doing it since his days at Collingwood, and the Swans won a flag doing it.

The upside is that if we have injuries or suspensions, lesser players can step in and not upset team balance too much.

[meher baba]

Given that Ball, Dal and Milne are alll big name stars who have been dropped, the reason players like Eddy and Co get a game is because they are disciplined enough to do what's required.

As a student of the game, surely you know that less talented players are required to play a "role" that allows the stars to play their bit?

That's why stars win matches, which you have often stated that it's the top 12 that win you games. So what's the confusion about these players? And who would you select in their place?

Leigh Matthews was doing it since his days at Collingwood, and the Swans won a flag doing it.

The upside is that if we have injuries or suspensions, lesser players can step in and not upset team balance too much.

Well, at various times during the season, I would have had X, Armo, Leigh Fisher and Geary in the side ahead of Eddy. Jack Steven would have been a contender as well.

The Swans have had some pretty unexciting players turn out for them in recent years but, when they were at the top of their game in the 2004-07 period, I don't reckon a player of Eddy's calibre would have gotten a look in at any point.

[rodgerfox]

Given that Ball, Dal and Milne are alll big name stars who have been dropped, the reason players like Eddy and Co get a game is because they are disciplined enough to do what's required.

As a student of the game, surely you know that less talented players are required to play a "role" that allows the stars to play their bit?

That's why stars win matches, which you have often stated that it's the top 12 that win you games. So what's the confusion about these players? And who would you select in their place?

Leigh Matthews was doing it since his days at Collingwood, and the Swans won a flag doing it.

The upside is that if we have injuries or suspensions, lesser players can step in and not upset team balance too much.

I think you've missed my point.

Teams always have their lesser lights. But it's generally clear why they get a gig - mostly because there's no one better available, or because they 'have a dip' or try hard.

In our case, it seems to have gone beyond that. Where certain players obviously have some sort of attribute or ability that others with more talent don't have.

For example, watching Eddy play, you must wonder why he is playing ahead of Luke Ball.
However when you hear Lyon talk about Eddy, he specifically talks about his running ability.
This, along with Lyon's penchant for structure (which is a fancy of saying where people stand on the ground at various stages of the game) lead me to believe that Eddy is in the team because he can run from one spot to another, quickly and when Lyon wants him to.

I don't even think he's expected to get the ball. If he does, I think it's a bonus.

Of course, this is just a theory and could be completely wrong.

[meher baba]

Eddy is in the team because he can run from one spot to another, quickly and when Lyon wants him to.

I don't even think he's expected to get the ball. If he does, I think it's a bonus.

If Eddy was actually quick, this theory would have something going for it.

Eddy is fairly pedestrian, but he has an enormous motor on him, and can literally run all day. Which would be absolutely fantastic if he had enough skills to - for example - tie up an important opposition defender.

But we saw on Saturday night that the Swans, at least, didn't rate Eddy highly enough to put any of their players anywhere near him. So he was running around somewhat aimlessly. He got the ball a couple of times and wasted it.

To Lyon's credit, I think he sensed this and benched Eddy for long periods of the game. I doubt we'll see him in the top 22 again this season.