I hate to say it but

[Con Gorozidis]

Max on Stevie J. Bakes on Chappy. We win the game.
To all the "Ross Lyon knows best" people out there. He made a mistake. Plain and simple.

max was not a "sentimental" pick. The fact is max always has been and always will be a better footballer than dempster. end of story.

[sax]

Max on Stevie J. Bakes on Chappy. We win the game.
To all the "Ross Lyon knows best" people out there. He made a mistake. Plain and simple.

max was not a "sentimental" pick. The fact is max always has been and always will be a better footballer than dempster. end of story.

And you coach.......Who?

[plugger66]

Max on Stevie J. Bakes on Chappy. We win the game.
To all the "Ross Lyon knows best" people out there. He made a mistake. Plain and simple.

max was not a "sentimental" pick. The fact is max always has been and always will be a better footballer than dempster. end of story.

I went to the game and cant remember Dempster playing Johnson so why would Max replace Dempster.

[Con Gorozidis]

Max on Stevie J. Bakes on Chappy. We win the game.
To all the "Ross Lyon knows best" people out there. He made a mistake. Plain and simple.

max was not a "sentimental" pick. The fact is max always has been and always will be a better footballer than dempster. end of story.

I went to the game and cant remember Dempster playing Johnson so why would Max replace Dempster.

no you are right. He was far too busy getting towelled up by Andrew Mackie

[SainterK]

This is coming from someone who didn't even have us in the eight

[plugger66]

Max on Stevie J. Bakes on Chappy. We win the game.
To all the "Ross Lyon knows best" people out there. He made a mistake. Plain and simple.

max was not a "sentimental" pick. The fact is max always has been and always will be a better footballer than dempster. end of story.

I went to the game and cant remember Dempster playing Johnson so why would Max replace Dempster.

no you are right. He was far too busy getting towelled up by Andrew Mackie

Footy is such a simple game. RL obviously lost us the GF by not playing Max. Footy is that easy.

[Con Gorozidis]

Max on Stevie J. Bakes on Chappy. We win the game.
To all the "Ross Lyon knows best" people out there. He made a mistake. Plain and simple.

max was not a "sentimental" pick. The fact is max always has been and always will be a better footballer than dempster. end of story.

And you coach.......Who?

i coach noone. so that means all afl coaches never make mistakes?
i aint been to the moon but i know its there.

max is a better footballer. he just is.

[SainterK]

Max on Stevie J. Bakes on Chappy. We win the game.
To all the "Ross Lyon knows best" people out there. He made a mistake. Plain and simple.

max was not a "sentimental" pick. The fact is max always has been and always will be a better footballer than dempster. end of story.

And you coach.......Who?

i coach noone. so that means all afl coaches never make mistakes?
i aint been to the moon but i know its there.

max is a better footballer. he just is.

OK, let's just say it wasn't about who was the better footballer. Put on your coaches hat again for a moment, and tell me what you would have done had you played Max and his hamstring went in the first quarter?

[fingers]

Max on Stevie J. Bakes on Chappy. We win the game.
To all the "Ross Lyon knows best" people out there. He made a mistake. Plain and simple.

max was not a "sentimental" pick. The fact is max always has been and always will be a better footballer than dempster. end of story.

I went to the game and cant remember Dempster playing Johnson so why would Max replace Dempster.

no you are right. He was far too busy getting towelled up by Andrew Mackie

Footy is such a simple game. RL obviously lost us the GF by not playing Max. Footy is that easy.

Gee it worries me when we agree so vehemently on something

[SaintHomer]

rubbish, max wouldn't be able to keep up with stevie j all over the ground. although dangerous forward, stevie j would have ran him all over the ground.

it sounds like those who say we should have moved max onto jarman. IMO, nobody would have stopped jarman that day.

it's gone, we lost, we need to move on (mind you, i'm struggling and still hurting).

[SydneySainter]

Max on Stevie J.

I think it's an un-justified assumption that Max can still match up on the competitions most dangerous smalls. Your argument has relevance only in the 'hindsight' that Stevie J was underdone. The fact is that Baker is still so effective in what he does, that it was impossible to tell.

The last time I remember Max beating a small was Brad Johnson and he's a 349 game veteran, hardly in his prime. Max's career best form was arguably last year and the only time I remember him playing on a small was a brief stint against Aker, who killed him.

To say that in the twilight of his career that he could still run-with and shutdown a dangerous small such as Stevie J or even Chappy (as someone suggested earlier), that's just wishful thinking.

But, all this argument is, is hindsight.

[skeptic]

there's pbly a couple of dozen things RL could have done differently that may have won us the game. At a glance:

-McEvoy may have had more influence around the ground then King

-Max could have had more influence on the game than Raph

-ANy of Armitage, Eddy or Geary may have been better than Dempster

-Any of Armitage, Eddy, Geary may have done better than then Sept's under performing Ray

-Maybe more credence should have been paid to the history that shows Milne simply doesn't step up on the big occassions

The fact remains that we should have been at least 5 goals up at 3/4 time but we squandered our opportunities in front of goals

[chook23]

Was Mackie in best for cats..........No....................

well below .......why?

+ Max played 1 year too long

people think that the max running around in the 2's was the same max at his best..............

32-3 year old .....worn out but WAS a past great

[JABBER]

con is a saint bagger who dosn't know his footy

[markp]

What if he was on the bench icing his hammy after the first 10 minutes?

We kick straight we win... Umpire sees that Hawkins 'goal' scrape the post we win.

We had every chance to win and we lost, deal with it.

[elvis lives]

so what.. we should never question the coach? every thing he does and says is right 100% of the time?

lord help us if that is the policy of the Saints heirarchy.

Fact is coaches make mistakes. Even coaches that have a 22-2 record for the home and away. In fact, a coach that has a 22-2 record in home and away that doesnt win the flag should probably be scruitinised for his GF performance & team selection more than any other.

I've got no doubt that Ross would admit he made some mitstakes. Indeed, he has admitted as much saying that he should have given Luke Ball more time on the ground, particularly in the last qtr. No shyt. We are getting smashed in the clearances and our second best clearance getter is sitting on the bench. The writing was on the wall after the games Luke missed, particularly Essendon and Nth Melbourne, where we got beaten in the clearances for one of the few times for the whole year.

This idea that Max had an injury concern is a complete furphy. Ross has never said that Max was left outduen top injury and no doubt would have had it been the case - to avoid all of the speculation. Clearly Ross was wrapped in Zac's performances for the year and for this reason he felt he deserved a spot - despiet qquestionable performance in the leadup to the GF. There might be no sentiment in footy, but its hardly brutal decision making leaving a rookie having a good year in a grand final team over an experienced, champion veteran who has proven himself over 10 years as one of the best full backs in the league - just because you felt the rookie had earnt it. Max is/was the best option at full back. No two ways about it.

And don't even start me on the non-selection from round 21 onwards of david armitage. He did more in the hawthorn game than eddy did cumulatively over the whole year, but it was clear that Eddy had Ross's favour and Armitage didn't.

Ross deserves full credit for a great, albeit ultimately unsuccessful season, but he plays favourites with players - in my mind there is no doubt about that - giving some repeated opportunities regardless of results (see: Raph, Dempster, Eddy and to a lesser extent Dawson) and ignoring others who have displayed clear form (see: Armitage, Ball, Hudgton & X - early in the season). the consistent but by no means universal theme here is that if you were brought to the club while Ross was coach then you will get plenty of opportunties. If you were here before Ross got here, then you have to go above and beyond to prove your worth.

[Milan Faletic]

Just when I thought the wound was starting to heal, Con comes out and pulls the scab off.

Is there anything new in this thread? Anything that hasn't been mentioned ad nauseum over the last three weeks on numerous threads.

Not if you have read and/or contributed since GF day.

Let's start another new thread on Luke Ball.

[Junior]

loved Max as a player, but anyone that thinks he could play on a half bank flank on Steve Johnson is kidding themselves.

Nothing wrong with the 22 selected, if we had kicked straight and had converted more of our numerous inside 50's it would all be a non issue.

We did not lose because Max did not play, we lost because we kicked terribly for goal.

[borderbarry]

It was not Dempster keeping Max out of the finals, he only played the one, it was Dawson.

[boneless23]

Gilbert on Johnson and Bakes on Chapman maybe....but if my uncle had tits, he would be my aunty.

[plugger66]

so what.. we should never question the coach? every thing he does and says is right 100% of the time?

lord help us if that is the policy of the Saints heirarchy.

Fact is coaches make mistakes. Even coaches that have a 22-2 record for the home and away. In fact, a coach that has a 22-2 record in home and away that doesnt win the flag should probably be scruitinised for his GF performance & team selection more than any other.

I've got no doubt that Ross would admit he made some mitstakes. Indeed, he has admitted as much saying that he should have given Luke Ball more time on the ground, particularly in the last qtr. No shyt. We are getting smashed in the clearances and our second best clearance getter is sitting on the bench. The writing was on the wall after the games Luke missed, particularly Essendon and Nth Melbourne, where we got beaten in the clearances for one of the few times for the whole year.

This idea that Max had an injury concern is a complete furphy. Ross has never said that Max was left outduen top injury and no doubt would have had it been the case - to avoid all of the speculation. Clearly Ross was wrapped in Zac's performances for the year and for this reason he felt he deserved a spot - despiet qquestionable performance in the leadup to the GF. There might be no sentiment in footy, but its hardly brutal decision making leaving a rookie having a good year in a grand final team over an experienced, champion veteran who has proven himself over 10 years as one of the best full backs in the league - just because you felt the rookie had earnt it. Max is/was the best option at full back. No two ways about it.

And don't even start me on the non-selection from round 21 onwards of david armitage. He did more in the hawthorn game than eddy did cumulatively over the whole year, but it was clear that Eddy had Ross's favour and Armitage didn't.

Ross deserves full credit for a great, albeit ultimately unsuccessful season, but he plays favourites with players - in my mind there is no doubt about that - giving some repeated opportunities regardless of results (see: Raph, Dempster, Eddy and to a lesser extent Dawson) and ignoring others who have displayed clear form (see: Armitage, Ball, Hudgton & X - early in the season). the consistent but by no means universal theme here is that if you were brought to the club while Ross was coach then you will get plenty of opportunties. If you were here before Ross got here, then you have to go above and beyond to prove your worth.

RL probably makes plenty of mistakes but so does every coach especially in hindsight. I am pretty sure Thompson made mistakes in the coaches box during and before the game but the biggest mistake we made wasnt selction, it was missing easy shots early in the game and RL couldnt do much about that. In hindsight I would be a rich man but we dont get those choices.

[skeptic]

so what.. we should never question the coach? every thing he does and says is right 100% of the time?

lord help us if that is the policy of the Saints heirarchy.

Fact is coaches make mistakes. Even coaches that have a 22-2 record for the home and away. In fact, a coach that has a 22-2 record in home and away that doesnt win the flag should probably be scruitinised for his GF performance & team selection more than any other.

I've got no doubt that Ross would admit he made some mitstakes. Indeed, he has admitted as much saying that he should have given Luke Ball more time on the ground, particularly in the last qtr. No shyt. We are getting smashed in the clearances and our second best clearance getter is sitting on the bench. The writing was on the wall after the games Luke missed, particularly Essendon and Nth Melbourne, where we got beaten in the clearances for one of the few times for the whole year.

This idea that Max had an injury concern is a complete furphy. Ross has never said that Max was left outduen top injury and no doubt would have had it been the case - to avoid all of the speculation. Clearly Ross was wrapped in Zac's performances for the year and for this reason he felt he deserved a spot - despiet qquestionable performance in the leadup to the GF. There might be no sentiment in footy, but its hardly brutal decision making leaving a rookie having a good year in a grand final team over an experienced, champion veteran who has proven himself over 10 years as one of the best full backs in the league - just because you felt the rookie had earnt it. Max is/was the best option at full back. No two ways about it.

And don't even start me on the non-selection from round 21 onwards of david armitage. He did more in the hawthorn game than eddy did cumulatively over the whole year, but it was clear that Eddy had Ross's favour and Armitage didn't.

Ross deserves full credit for a great, albeit ultimately unsuccessful season, but he plays favourites with players - in my mind there is no doubt about that - giving some repeated opportunities regardless of results (see: Raph, Dempster, Eddy and to a lesser extent Dawson) and ignoring others who have displayed clear form (see: Armitage, Ball, Hudgton & X - early in the season). the consistent but by no means universal theme here is that if you were brought to the club while Ross was coach then you will get plenty of opportunties. If you were here before Ross got here, then you have to go above and beyond to prove your worth.

I agree with you whole heartedly.

Whilst he's done plenty right, he has also made plenty of mistakes.

In regards to the grandfinal however, you can't expect him to go against his own winning forumla.

[SydneySainter]

so what.. we should never question the coach? every thing he does and says is right 100% of the time?

lord help us if that is the policy of the Saints heirarchy.

Fact is coaches make mistakes. Even coaches that have a 22-2 record for the home and away. In fact, a coach that has a 22-2 record in home and away that doesnt win the flag should probably be scruitinised for his GF performance & team selection more than any other.

I've got no doubt that Ross would admit he made some mitstakes. Indeed, he has admitted as much saying that he should have given Luke Ball more time on the ground, particularly in the last qtr. No shyt. We are getting smashed in the clearances and our second best clearance getter is sitting on the bench. The writing was on the wall after the games Luke missed, particularly Essendon and Nth Melbourne, where we got beaten in the clearances for one of the few times for the whole year.

This idea that Max had an injury concern is a complete furphy. Ross has never said that Max was left outduen top injury and no doubt would have had it been the case - to avoid all of the speculation. Clearly Ross was wrapped in Zac's performances for the year and for this reason he felt he deserved a spot - despiet qquestionable performance in the leadup to the GF. There might be no sentiment in footy, but its hardly brutal decision making leaving a rookie having a good year in a grand final team over an experienced, champion veteran who has proven himself over 10 years as one of the best full backs in the league - just because you felt the rookie had earnt it. Max is/was the best option at full back. No two ways about it.

And don't even start me on the non-selection from round 21 onwards of david armitage. He did more in the hawthorn game than eddy did cumulatively over the whole year, but it was clear that Eddy had Ross's favour and Armitage didn't.

Ross deserves full credit for a great, albeit ultimately unsuccessful season, but he plays favourites with players - in my mind there is no doubt about that - giving some repeated opportunities regardless of results (see: Raph, Dempster, Eddy and to a lesser extent Dawson) and ignoring others who have displayed clear form (see: Armitage, Ball, Hudgton & X - early in the season). the consistent but by no means universal theme here is that if you were brought to the club while Ross was coach then you will get plenty of opportunties. If you were here before Ross got here, then you have to go above and beyond to prove your worth.

No one will ever accuse Ross Lyon of being an unquestionable genius and yes, he made decisions in the grand final that I'm sure he regrets. But, I'll forgive Saints supporters of being somewhat defensive of Lyon as the proof is in the pudding! Had we kicked straight, we would have won. End of story.

In regards to the comment of Max being clearly the best option at fullback, explain what Max had done this year to justify that wrap? A shutdown job on Fev, granted, but be honest, shut down jobs on Fev have become a regulation for very good defenders. I love Max, but in my oppinion, his best is behind him. As for Dawson, who played beyond expectation since debuting for us, I was somewhat bemused by the instant sledging he received the moment Max was dropped. Yes, Zac has a lot to learn and yes, Max's experience is invaluable, but to still see Zac chase and tackle, take contested marks in defence (something that Max almost never backs himself to do) and still being solid in the one-on-one battles, the club had every right to back him and those supporters who were involved in the game-day Zac sledging during the finals series did nothing for the young man but lump unnecessary pressure on his shoulders.

As for X, when has he ever been anymore an injury plagued mid with potential? Eight years on our list and never being able to manage a full season. Tore his hamstring last year, season over and did an ACL while rebuilding his form in the VFL early this year. What was Lyon supposed to do, play him at the start of the season when he was underdone? As for Raph, was drafted in 2003, thus at the club three years before Lyon so can hardly be a 'favourite that was brought to the club while Ross was coach'. Ball was dropped, played through the VFL, brought back into the seniors, dropped again and returned to play in the entire finals series, even the granny, after a very ordinary preliminary final, so he was hardly being ignored. Ignored would be to throw him into the VFL and let him rot.

As for Armitage, I would have also liked to see him get much more game time and I'm not sold on Eddy either, but nor am I going to speculate without knowing the facts.

[matrix]

im still farked off that he is now over at the Filth

[3rd generation saint]

Sorry to tell you this Elvis, but Luke was in the building against Essendon.