Gone / delisted - Brooks, Watts, McQualter, Sheldon.

[joffaboy]

FWIW I really don't like the model that RL is beginning to create.

So you wanted him to continue with the s.hite half arsed model that he inherited and failed to deliver us anything more than a Wizard Cup do you?

Why are we all pinning our hopes on rejects (AS exception) from rival clubs yet so willingly to let our own go after so many years and such high draft selections.

Because Dempster will fill the Attard stopper role, King will be our ruckman, and Schneider will be the crumming forward we have all cried out for.

Sweeney couldn't cut it as the Schneider role, Raymond couldn't cut it as a footballer, McQualter couldn't do the Attard job and Gardiner is a better prospect than Watts or Brooks as a depth forward.

The Sydney model isn't the model to win premierships. Yeh they won one....but it would be naive to believe that its a formula for sustained success.

So what? Just because we picked up a couple of Sydney players doesn't make us Sydney.

Addig 2=2 and getting six I am afraid.

[Oh When the Saints]

FWIW I really don't like the model that RL is beginning to create.

Why are we all pinning our hopes on rejects (AS exception) from rival clubs yet so willingly to let our own go after so many years and such high draft selections.

High draft selections who have been duds at AFL level.

The Sydney model isn't the model to win premierships. Yeh they won one....but it would be naive to believe that its a formula for sustained success.

I don't believe we are following the "Sydney model" (whatever that is), but even if we are:

Not a formula for sustained success?

5 finals series in a row and 2 grand finals for 1 premiership.

No, that's not sustained success

Its also asks the question...What the f*** to the recruiters do at local football games? Enjoy their time out in the sun? Seriously how hard is it to ensure that a player chosen within the top 20 in AUSTRALIA will be able to make it at the next level. Sometime it seems everyone is too concerned on picking up the smokey from nowhere and not ensuring class is selected every time.

Actually, the average number of games from a Top 10 draft pick 54 matches of AFL football.

54 matches.


The average number of matches for a player taken in the first four rounds of the draft is around 15, and the average number of years spent on a list is 2 and a half.


If, in the 3 picks we have in the draft this year, we pick ONE player who plays 100 games for the Saints, we have exceeded expectations.

[Riewoldting]

If Kosi goes down through the year which is most likely to happen who is going to play at FF ??

He played 19 of 22 games in 2007. Why would he "go down", and why is it "most likely to happen"?

[Oh When the Saints]

We've cleared out some of the deadwood in Thompson, Hamill, Voss, Clarke and Raymond, but we replaced it with more deadwood.

Schneider, Dempster and King are regular first 22 players at successful clubs, whereas none of Thompson, Hamill, Voss, Clarke or Raymond would have got a game with another club in '07.

I'm not putting a spin on our new recruits - the facts tell you they were first choice players in premiership teams in the past 3 years.

I fail to see how we are refilling our list with deadwood.

Now we are delisting players who actualy have talent and the ability to make a difference so we can bring in more deadwood. Nothing we have done (apat from the Schneider trade) makes the team any better.

The players we delisted may have talent and ability, but they have never shown it at AFL level. McQualter failed this year despite plenty of opportunity, and was poor at VFL level.

Watts may have been stiff, but where was the spot for a slow, one-grab 197cm key forward in our forward line? It didn't exist.

Fair dinkum, if you base your list management on the likelihood of particular players getting injured, then you would end up with 38 duds like McQualter and Watts.

We have acquired depth, but in the wrong positions. We already had too many flankers (Dempster, Gardiner) and ordinary ruckmen (King) on the list, and now we've delisted some of our midfield depth (McQualter) and all of our key forward depth (Brooks, Watts).

You've clearly never seen Dempster play. He is a midfielder, and plays exactly the same role as Steven Baker ... occasionaly in the back-line assigned to a player, most often in the midfield tagging someone.

I agree we have a lot of flankers, but no forward flankers. That's what C. Gardiner offers.

King is not an ordinary ruckmen ... at his best he is currently in the top 8 ruckmen in the AFL.

We are left with a ridiculously long list of flankers and crap ruckmen, with no depth for key defenders, key forwards or midfielders. Personally I think this has been a terrible few days of list management.

No depth in key defenders:
Gilbert
Maguire
Hudghton
Gwilt
S. Fisher

Compared with Geelong:
Harley
Scarlett
Egan
Milburn
Spencer

Fair dinkum ..... if you base your list around having even depth in each area to cover for injury, you won't end up with any decent players.


You must put faith in having 20 of your best 22 on the park each week, like the last 10 premiership teams have had.

[Oh When the Saints]

If you are fit and consistent (regardless of whether you are consistently great or terrible) you are a star in Lyon's books.

Why does he pick Xavier and Raph Clarke every week then? Neither of them are fit or consistent.

Neither is Milne.

But, hey, only "fit and consistent" players get a game under this coach ...

[mad saint guy]

Geary, Allen, Armitage, Howard, Jones, Gwilt - ALL up and coming

saints are looking good. no doubt.

Watts, McQualter, brooks while good not GOOD ENOUGH for afl football.

not point tryin to make them something they are not!!

Ok, lets compare our "up and coming" players to other strong clubs.

Geary, Allen, Armitage,Howard, Jones, Gwilt

vs

Hurn, Rosa, LeCras, Waters, Brown, McKenzie, McKinley, McNamara

Selwood, Hawkins, Varcoe, Djerrkura, Stokes, Prismall

Boak, Westhoff, Chaplin, Krakouer, Pearce, Carlile, Thomson, Willits, Lower, Gray, Bentley

Cloke, Thomas, Pendlebury, Shaw, Goldsack, Clarke, Reid, Brown, O'Brien, Rusling, Cox, Dawes

McIntosh, Wells, Smith, Hansen, Campbell, Thomas, Swallow, McMahon, Lower, Goldstein

Our list of up and coming players is pathetic.

From the 2000 and 2001 drafts (not including players we gained through trades) we have 7 regulars. From 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005 and 2006 we have 4 regular players.

Our list is hugely out of balance and Lyon is just making that worse. If this keeps up in a few years we will be in a similar situation to what Sydney is in now. All but 2 or 3 of their good players are over 27. Once that group retires, they simply won't have anyone left to win games. They will be pathetic for several years and really pay the price of constant topping up. Luckily for them they will get to take a flag away from it all.

[Riewoldting]

Luckily for them they will get to take a flag away from it all.

Isn't that what it's all about?

You seem to be suggesting that we are only allowed a flag if it comes as a happy consequence of picking kids year after year and hoping the planets align and they win a premiership.

The trade week moves indicate three things to me:

1. Lyon has inherited a list with a number of deficiencies, and specifically traded to address those
2. Lyon has a plan in mind to win a premiership within a certain period of time, and is executing that plan beautifully
3. Lyon recognises that our A-listers are the nucleus of a premiership-winning team, and is tweaking the list to ensure we get one before Riewoldt, Kosi, Dal Santo, Ball, Maguire and Hayes retire.

[Oh When the Saints]

Ok, lets compare our "up and coming" players to other strong clubs.

Geary, Allen, Armitage,Howard, Jones, Gwilt

vs

Hurn, Rosa, LeCras, Waters, Brown, McKenzie, McKinley, McNamara

Selwood, Hawkins, Varcoe, Djerrkura, Stokes, Prismall

Boak, Westhoff, Chaplin, Krakouer, Pearce, Carlile, Thomson, Willits, Lower, Gray, Bentley

Cloke, Thomas, Pendlebury, Shaw, Goldsack, Clarke, Reid, Brown, O'Brien, Rusling, Cox, Dawes

McIntosh, Wells, Smith, Hansen, Campbell, Thomas, Swallow, McMahon, Lower, Goldstein

Our list of up and coming players is pathetic.

Terrible analysis. Leave yourself wide open.


If you include McIntosh and Wells on that list MSG, then you need to include Goddard and Leigh Fisher (same draft) on our list.

If you include Shaw and Rusling on that list MSG, then you need to include S. Fisher and Raph Clarke (same draft).

If you include Stokes and Varcoe on that list MSG, then you need to include Gilbert and Gwilt on ours (same draft).

So all of a sudden, for a fair comparison, our list of "up and coming players" looks like:

S. Gilbert, R. Clarke, S. Fisher, B. Goddard, L. Fisher, J. Gwilt, D. Armitage, J. Allen, B. Howard, J. Geary ....

Looks just a tad better MSG?


If you are going to make comparisons, make them fair ........

Our list is hugely out of balance and Lyon is just making that worse. If this keeps up in a few years we will be in a similar situation to what Sydney is in now. All but 2 or 3 of their good players are over 27.

I believe all of the premiership teams back to the Bombers in '93 have had (I think) 12 players in the side over the age of 25.

I fail to see how trading for a 23 year old, 22 year old and 24 year old is ensuring our list is out of balance.


Your core needs to be aged 25-28 to win a flag. You cannot win a flag with a group of young 18 year olds.

St Kilda have 4 players aged over 28. Four.

Once that group retires, they simply won't have anyone left to win games. They will be pathetic for several years and really pay the price of constant topping up.

"That group" you refer to ..... is it the majority of our list aged between 20 and 26? Who all have 4-5 years left at AFL level.

Nick Riewoldt is a once-in-a-generation footballer, and you build a side around a guy like that.

Lyon's plan is obviously to win a premiership whilst Riewoldt is still playing, sometime in the next 5 years.

Fair enough to me .......


Why spend 4-5 years waiting for some 18-year olds to develop by which time you have pissed away all the good recruiting done at the 2001 draft?

[fonz_#15]

what good are the facts owts?? people present certain pieces of information to make their ow agenda/argument look convincing.. i mean after all this is the same poster who thinks Brooks is hard done by.

[joffaboy]

what good are the facts owts?? people present certain pieces of information to make their ow agenda/argument look convincing.. i mean after all this is the same poster who thinks Brooks is hard done by.

Very good point.

However OWTS has addressed MSG argument and has totally utterly and completely dismantled it.

MSG is harping because he has backed himself into a corner and wont see any alternatives.

[Spinner]

The Sydney model isn't the model to win premierships. Yeh they won one....but it would be naive to believe that its a formula for sustained success.

So what? Just because we picked up a couple of Sydney players doesn't make us Sydney.

Addig 2=2 and getting six I am afraid.

Picking up some Sydney players isnt the model im refering to. Its the persistence with rugged, classless workhorse such as Blake, Rix and CJ...its very clear how much they are favored by the coach.

Using that base of player to grind its way to wins. Instead of toppling over the opposition.

[Oh When the Saints]

How many games do you estimate Blake, CJ and Rix will play in 2008 without injuries?

None are in our best 22, so that would be 0.


With an "average" injury list, I would tip about 30 games between those 3 players.

Hardly the coach persisting with "workhorse" types in his best 22 ....

[fonz_#15]

i think there is at the very least a bench spot for blake..
i'm not his biggest fan but its aboutr time he is a cut a little bit of slack.
he did finish 9th in out b&f and you know what you will get from him each and every game (albeit not that efficient)

[Spinner]

How many games do you estimate Blake, CJ and Rix will play in 2008 without injuries?

None are in our best 22, so that would be 0.


With an "average" injury list, I would tip about 30 games between those 3 players.

Hardly the coach persisting with "workhorse" types in his best 22 ....

No...thats the coach hardly persisting based on YOUR assumptions of how many games they will play.

FACT of Persistence.
CJ being elevated.
Blake playing an entire season.
Blake having an abundance of game time
Blake finishing 9th in the B&F (coaching panel awards votes)
Rix being played - period.

[fonz_#15]

also, many people just don't understand that a clubs list can't have 5 riewoldts, 5 dal santo's, 5 hayes', 5 harvey's and 5 maxi hudghton's.

with a slary cap, it is impossible to have a star studded line up from the top of a list to the bottom. this is where the likes of blake and rix fit into our list. they don't demand nor should they expect big bucks, but they give it their all and stretch their limited ability as far as they possibly can.

[Oh When the Saints]

Alright Spinner ... how many games, given an average injury list, do you think Blake, Rix and Jones will play (you can chose your own "best 22")?

[joffaboy]

Blake playing an entire season.
Blake having an abundance of game time
Blake finishing 9th in the B&F (coaching panel awards votes)

Came 9th. Coaches who have all played AFL football some as premiership players others as premiership assistant coaches put together those awards.

If you wat to drop top ten players in our B&F where does that leave Kosi?

or are you suggesting tha the coaches rigged the numbers for Blakes to et in the top ten?

Fair Dinkum get over the fact that real football people know more about the qualities of Blake than you do

[Riewoldting]

you know what you will get from him each and every game

I think that's half the problem

[fonz_#15]

you know what you will get from him each and every game

I think that's half the problem

i don't disagree HOWEVER....

this is a sport with a tight salary cap, and unless your carlton you can't buy your premierships by having extra cash.

fact is we need players like the 2 mentioned because of the TPP/salary cap thing.

[Spinner]

Blake playing an entire season.
Blake having an abundance of game time
Blake finishing 9th in the B&F (coaching panel awards votes)

Came 9th. Coaches who have all played AFL football some as premiership players others as premiership assistant coaches put together those awards.

If you wat to drop top ten players in our B&F where does that leave Kosi?

or are you suggesting tha the coaches rigged the numbers for Blakes to et in the top ten?

Fair Dinkum get over the fact that real football people know more about the qualities of Blake than you do

I was stating a fact JB. The fact that Blake is rated by the coaches which is indicative of his top ten B&F finish.

Fair Dinkum - Make sure you understand (by reading) the post before attacking the opinions, or in this case a clear fact presented by a poster.

Feel free to attack, belittle, reject and dismiss my opinion(s) all you want. That attitude makes saintsational worth logging into...I myself do quite the same...but dont create opportunities to do so when they are clearly not there.

[Teflon]

Brooks has shown nothing in 5 years evertonfc. With Rix you know what you are going to get every week at AFL level or VFL level. With Brooks, it is a question mark.

On the minimum wage, Rix's reliability in a physical and mental sense mean he gets the nod. Plus he played 17-odd games for us this year, and Brooks played 2.

Clinton Jones vs. McQualter was a 50/50 for mine.


Watts is too slow for the game at AFL level. He's another Anthony Rocca, who has almost been squeezed out of Collingwood's side. You need mobility.

yep says it all.

Watts had me worried from the get go and smacked of recruiting for dad....you simply cant have treacle out of your forwards as we all saw Scarlett and trhe Cats defence regulalry streaming downfield this year setting up numerous attacks....

Shame bout Brooks - truly had talent...I guess no real desire

Why would we not have tried to off load Brooks/Watts to the Dogs who are desperate for a BIG forward???? and have many runners.....did we try?

Well done Ross - my gut feel when you took over as coach was you had a firm vision based in FOOTBALL not management......in 1 pre season youve stamped yourself on this list and identified and addressed our TRUE holes. Yes these players need to deliver - but its clear in terms of capability/requirements from a list perspective you have it nailed.

I sleep warm in this knowledge and my waterbed.

[Teflon]

Calling MSG to this thread. Your input would be interesting, I believe.

Most were saying that this year would be a big clearout, after Lyon got a chance to assess our list in full, but not THIS big. However, it's clear that Lyon's strategy involves filling depth holes with AFL footballers, and getting rid of players who have had 3+ years in the system and still not cracked the big time on a regular basis.

We've cleared out some of the deadwood in Thompson, Hamill, Voss, Clarke and Raymond, but we replaced it with more deadwood. Now we are delisting players who actualy have talent and the ability to make a difference so we can bring in more deadwood. Nothing we have done (apat from the Schneider trade) makes the team any better. We have acquired depth, but in the wrong positions. We already had too many flankers (Dempster, Gardiner) and ordinary ruckmen (King) on the list, and now we've delisted some of our midfield depth (McQualter) and all of our key forward depth (Brooks, Watts).

We are left with a ridiculously long list of flankers and crap ruckmen, with no depth for key defenders, key forwards or midfielders. Personally I think this has been a terrible few days of list management.

Thats all lovely if you just add it up on a positional basis and actually ignorw what time you have invested and what return you have got from the players let go - seriously Brooks was forward depth yeah?....Im not sure in the end he was even that IF these rumours are true.

Easy to say we havent improved the list - how can you make that call when these new guys havent kicked a ball in anger for us yet?

Tad early for grand statements made purely on a simplistic position count.

[Teflon]

can not believe the cr@p directed at Jones - his first half of the season priot to the collarbone was very good I thought - NO hes no Aussie Jones in the delivery stakes BUT hes not as bad as Andrew Thompson for mine either. he found the footy AND could run the lines with some true pace???

He got injured. Lost form. It happens????

But in all that HE SHOWED heaps more than McQualter ever did????

[mad saint guy]

Our list is hugely out of balance and Lyon is just making that worse. If this keeps up in a few years we will be in a similar situation to what Sydney is in now. All but 2 or 3 of their good players are over 27.

I believe all of the premiership teams back to the Bombers in '93 have had (I think) 12 players in the side over the age of 25.

I fail to see how trading for a 23 year old, 22 year old and 24 year old is ensuring our list is out of balance.

I am using the Sydney analogy. Their best players (with just a few exceptions) are over 27. Our best players are now mostly 24 or 25. If we continue looking for short term fixes with ageing ruckmen and GOP flankers from other teams we will not win a flag, and within a few years Roo, Kosi, Dal, Ball, Joey, Chips, Maguire, Gram, Goddard etc will be in their late 20's and near the end of their career and with no decent kids to take over. We just desperately lack decent players from 18-21. Gilbert will be good, while Armo and Allen seem likely. That is all.

The out of balance comment was also regarding the types of players. We have almost enough flankers to field a team and just 6-7 AFL quality midfielders.

Your core needs to be aged 25-28 to win a flag. You cannot win a flag with a group of young 18 year olds.

I think that is changing. Geelong won the flag because of their 22-23 year olds. Obiviously the older group was a key element, but you want the bulk of your team (particularly midfield) to be in their early-mid 20's. The time is gone when the team of 28 year olds would out do every other team because of their strength and experience.

St Kilda have 4 players aged over 28. Four.

Which is the standard now.

"That group" you refer to ..... is it the majority of our list aged between 20 and 26? Who all have 4-5 years left at AFL level.

Nick Riewoldt is a once-in-a-generation footballer, and you build a side around a guy like that.

Lyon's plan is obviously to win a premiership whilst Riewoldt is still playing, sometime in the next 5 years.

Look, we all have the same goal. I want us to win a premiership in the immediate future. I agree that Riewoldt is a player who can win you premierships, but he needs a decent midfield kicking it to him. No use in having ordinary 9 defensive flankers and 5 taggers in the team.

Why spend 4-5 years waiting for some 18-year olds to develop by which time you have pissed away all the good recruiting done at the 2001 draft?

With good recruiting and player management you don't have to wait 5 years. Just from the 2006 draft, Gibbs, Leuenberger, Boak, Selwood, Everitt, M.Brown, S.Edwards, Petterd, Davey, Krakouer, Hawkins, Thomas, Gray, Connors, Goldsack and Westhoff had an impact in the seniors.

From the 2005 draft Murphy, Thomas, Ellis, Kennedy, Pendlebury, Ryder, Clark, Higgins, Jones, Hurn, Birchall, Varcoe, Douglas, Dempsey, Bower, Hughes, Mills, Addison, Gilbert, Hooper, Warnock, Swallow, Carlile, Patfull, Bartram and Stokes have played some very good footy for their clubs.

You have to constantly be bringing the best available young talent to the club. You can't just have 2 or 3 good years of drafting and then recruit recycled hacks for the next 5 years (as we have done). Our list is good enough to make up for a few dodgy years of recruiting if we put a stop to the flow of hacks going through the club and draft some quality, but if we keep it up we will end up like Sydney.

[Munga]

I haven't read this thread because I thought it was someone's speculation.

Have they officially been delisted? Nothing on saints.com.au!