Ross Lyon recruiting finally getting smelly?

[Con Gorozidis]

0-10 for the super coach.

[SainterK]

Ross coached team running out of gas, how unusual...

No coincidence the players that lifted in the last

[Johnny Member]

No coincidence either, that they totally dominated 2 quarters of footy yet never really dominated the scoreboard.

Textbook Lyon.

[The Fireman]

suffer in your jocks Ross


PS this would have hurt bigtime.

[Enrico_Misso]

On ya Ro$$y
Given me a huge laugh today at your expense.

Your gameplan is SHYTE.

I hope you don't win another game for the season you PARASITE.

[saintsRrising]

SR

Being an AA
Past or previous
I think it means that you can play the game a bit... Doesn't it

Everyone uses it when convincing of the capabilities of Carlisle.. Even though he never actually was ... And has had 3 years of non achievement since.

To Con and BigMart. Yes it is an indication. But is meanigless unless you compare.

I just had a few spare minutes and so I thought I woud apply the Con Gorizidis AA calculation to GT's reign.

By the method that Con has stated he calculated AA's (That you calculate it is the pplayer has ever won an AA. ie King counts even though it was won well before he came to the Saints) if you then calculate the AA's available to GT it was 15 AA's compared to Lyon's 10 AA's.


I personally I think it is wrong to trot out the stat the way you are both are using it. But hey on the basis that you seem to want to use it and applying Con's logic that with 10AA's Billy Brownless would have won two flags, then I guess that with GT's list he would have won 3. Or is 50% more AA's double and so you would get 4 flags?

[BigMart]

How did GT have 15 AAs in the list at one time?

[saintsRrising]

How did GT have 15 AAs in the list at one time?

I calculated it using Cons measure which was how many players played under Lyon who had won an AA who have won AA in their playing careers. Evidently it is a supposed measure of available quality to the coach. (Not my theory) I mean the GTrain by 2008 was gone and so even though he had won 2 AA's does that really mean anything to win a flag in 2008?

Under GT's tenure there were 15 players who have won AA in their playing careers. Con stated he had 10 for Lyon. however looking now he may have missed some as I get 13.

I have not bothered to look up how many the Cats or Pies had by that measure. I suspect the Cat's count would be on the high side.

Personally I think it is only meanigful to look at what a player and team was in a given year, and to not just extract the best from his career.

I mean look at Pav this year. 6 time AA, but that means squat with his form this year.

[Con Gorozidis]

How did GT have 15 AAs in the list at one time?

I calculated it using Cons measure which was how many players played under Lyon who had won an AA who have won AA in their playing careers. Evidently it is a supposed measure of available quality to the coach. (Not my theory) I mean the GTrain by 2008 was gone and so even though he had won 2 AA's does that really mean anything to win a flag in 2008?

Under GT's tenure there were 15 players who have won AA in their playing careers. Con stated he had 10 for Lyon. however looking now he may have missed some as I get 13.

I have not bothered to look up how many the Cats or Pies had by that measure. I suspect the Cat's count would be on the high side.

Personally I think it is only meanigful to look at what a player and team was in a given year, and to not just extract the best from his career.

I mean look at Pav this year. 6 time AA, but that means squat with his form this year.

Doesn't Pav strengthen my point? Lyon had Pav for 5 years and some of this was at his peak. Pav was incredible in 2012 for instance. Dominated and kicked 69 goals.
So Pav being an AA player clearly benefited Lyon's record as coach.
You are somehow implying that because Pav is past it in 2016 that Lyon never benefited from having Pav as an AA on his list.

Also a quick count of our 2004 Prelim final team is 8 AA quality players. 2 less than the 2009 GF team which had 10 AA quality players.

[saintsRrising]

How did GT have 15 AAs in the list at one time?

I calculated it using Cons measure which was how many players played under Lyon who had won an AA who have won AA in their playing careers. Evidently it is a supposed measure of available quality to the coach. (Not my theory) I mean the GTrain by 2008 was gone and so even though he had won 2 AA's does that really mean anything to win a flag in 2008?

Under GT's tenure there were 15 players who have won AA in their playing careers. Con stated he had 10 for Lyon. however looking now he may have missed some as I get 13.

I have not bothered to look up how many the Cats or Pies had by that measure. I suspect the Cat's count would be on the high side.

Personally I think it is only meanigful to look at what a player and team was in a given year, and to not just extract the best from his career.

I mean look at Pav this year. 6 time AA, but that means squat with his form this year.

Doesn't Pav strengthen my point? Lyon had Pav for 5 years and some of this was at his peak. Pav was incredible in 2012 for instance. Dominated and kicked 69 goals.
So Pav being an AA player clearly benefited Lyon's record as coach.
You are somehow implying that because Pav is past it in 2016 that Lyon never benefited from having Pav as an AA on his list.

Also a quick count of our 2004 Prelim final team is 8 AA quality players. 2 less than the 2009 GF team which had 10 AA quality players.

LOL. No not at all. What I am quite clearly saying that just because Pav won 6 AA's it matters naught when he is passed it.

King was brilliant in his AA year. Was he brilliant with us? Did he exhibit AA form with us? No, but he was solid and useful and morso as our ruckstocks were poor and with the brilliant Gardiner having injury issues very useful to have in an era where you could play two ruckman.

My point it is a completely meaningless stat to add up past or future honors in rating a list. It only matters how good a list is in that particular year and indeed game.


Did Woewodin winninga Brownlow one year at all help him at Collingwood? Apart from the size of his paycheck = no.

[Johnny Member]

I think you're putting too much focus on King in this example.

[saintsRrising]

I think you're putting too much focus on King in this example.

Ok...according to Con even Billy would have won two GFs as he had 10 AA's.

Flaw in this theory is the opposition. Cats had 16AAs....and unlike Con's list were all in very good form in the years we were challenging.

Scarlett
Enright
Ablett
Kelly
Selwood
Chapman
SJ
Taylor
Harley
Corey
Milburn
Bartel
Mooney
Ling
Mackie
Hawkins

So using Con's theory 16 > 10 = Big Billy would have won 4 flags by coaching the Cats against Lyon and the Saints. Lyon might as well ahve never shown up as result was foregone!


My point remains that it is absolutey meaningless to raise any stat unless you actually compare it!

In this case if you actually compare the stat raised by Con it is actually counter to his hypothesis and not in support of it.

[samoht]

Fremantle showed us up for more than half of the match on the weekend and looked dangerous with their run and spread and the way they were combining - we were on the backfoot and trying to negate them for the better part of the match.

Even with the injuries, I felt that we were playing a superior team - for a fair part of the match.

So much so, that it made it obvious that we really do need to recruit 2 running players of the ilk of a Motlop or a Hill or a Smith (from Hawthorn) - to improve our team.
Freo made us look like witches hats over the 2nd and 3rd quarters.

How Freo is at 0-10 is an indictment to Lyon. When was the last time a team was at 0-10 and gone from finishing first one year to last on the ladder the next?
Lyon is plumbing new depths.

[saintsRrising]

Fremantle showed us up for more than half of the match on the weekend and looked dangerous with their run and spread and the way they were combining - we were on the backfoot and trying to negate them for the better part of the match.

Even with the injuries, I felt that we were playing a superior team.

How this team is at 0-10 is an indictment to Lyon. When was the last time a team was at 0-10?

I don't disagree. Lyon has not moved with the times tactically, and this years interchange cap has only made it worse for him. Once he could sustain his gameplan for 4 quarters, but these days opposition coaches and players can crack it and when they do they score at a much superior rate.

Freo won 2.5 quarters and Saints won 1.5 quarters. But when the Saints were on top they scored at a much faster rate when they were on top.

Coaches need to move with the times. I mean just look at the Blues under Malthouse vs under Bolton (playing much more the Hawothorn way).

[samoht]

Our forward line and Fisher/Roberton saved us - Freo were the better team in their run and carry and their spread and they also killed us in clearances and dominated the forward entries for a large part of the match.

We need to add another couple of runners/playmakers - Billings and Webster not playing didn't help - but we really do need to recruit a couple of Motlop/Dangerfield types to improve.

Freo impressed me enough to think that if AR was coaching them - they'd probabaly be at 3-7 at least, not 0-10!

[freely]

This is why we recruited Freeman - if we can ever get him on the park!

[samoht]

This is why we recruited Freeman - if we can ever get him on the park!

(I know we are off topic - strayed off Lyon discussion)

Freeman is a bit iffy - we need to make this type of player a priority - chase an established young player or draft the best available.

And we need 2 of them - not 1.

Back to Lyon -

if I was coaching Freo, I would have played their new number 40 - the big strapping lad - in the forward line when they were killing us around the ground and dominating the forward 50 entries.
Try to stretch our back line.

But Lyon has a defensive mindset - bless his soul.

[BigMart]

I question whether a few of them were AAs

Tom Harley?
Millburn, Ling??

[saintsRrising]

I question whether a few of them were AAs

Tom Harley?
Millburn, Ling??

Harley = 2008
Milburn = 2007
Ling = 2007

[BigMart]

Btw
They did win 3 flags... So SR doesn't help your argument

[White Winmar]

Another Lyon coached side loses with a score of 67 points. Reminds me of a couple of important games he coached us in. Let's be frank, they were all over us for two quarters and should've put us away, when they got to a lead of 19 points. Bennell sitting in the stands (troubled and injured. Andrew Lovett, anyone?), Gumbleton and Sylvia, his two big projects. Couldn't thrive in the Lyon cage. Defensive gameplan that can't beat the best. Deja vu. How the Dockers rubbed their hands with glee and taunted us for allowing them to pinch our coach. Turns out he was a Trojan Horse. At least he has plenty of time to rebuild. He's going to need it. I just hope he concentrates on that rebuild. The real problem will be reinventing himself. Perhaps he really is a one-trick Trojan pony.

[saintsRrising]

Btw
They did win 3 flags... So SR doesn't help your argument

Really?? Why not?? Were the Cats in a different competition to StKilda? Do they hand out flags for coming second or third?
And actually it was Con's and your argument. I was just pointing out the flaw in it.

The Con theory was that Brownless could have coached St Kilda to 2 premieships as he had 10 AAs. Now unless there is some alternate universe that would mean that we had to knock off the Cats.

Con and you keep quoting the 10AA line that supposedly would deliver someone who had never coached not just one premiership but two.

I was just pointing that the Cats had 16AA, and not to metion all of their AA's were within a few years of our flag window, and all won at the Cats. Whereas not all of the StKilda 10 were near that time window, and not all won at the Saints. So extending Con's logic the Cats should have easily acounted for the Saints. That is of course unless there were other factors like coaching that came into play, or that relying on AA "won at anytime" is not a measure in itself.

So if that is your and Con's argument that the Saints should have won two flags and that any moron could have done it then your logic is flawed.

I also pointed out that the preceding StKilda coach had by Con's measure more AA's than Lyon but did not make GF's. So agin your logic is flawed.

Big Mart you are normally an anylytical type of guy and so I am surprised that you go along with Con on this.


Lyon may well have been a one trick pony, and may well remain that, but IMO he had one trick at the right time for StKilda. My view remains that another coach at that particualr junction in time is unlikely to have matched or bettered Lyon record with us. Who knows maybe Clakson could have, but I doubt any other coach would have.

[saintsRrising]

Another Lyon coached side loses with a score of 67 points. Reminds me of a couple of important games he coached us in. Let's be frank, they were all over us for two quarters and should've put us away, when they got to a lead of 19 points. Bennell sitting in the stands (troubled and injured. Andrew Lovett, anyone?), Gumbleton and Sylvia, his two big projects. Couldn't thrive in the Lyon cage. Defensive gameplan that can't beat the best. Deja vu. How the Dockers rubbed their hands with glee and taunted us for allowing them to pinch our coach. Turns out he was a Trojan Horse. At least he has plenty of time to rebuild. He's going to need it. I just hope he concentrates on that rebuild. The real problem will be reinventing himself. Perhaps he really is a one-trick Trojan pony.

Again I can only agree in the main, though I do not agree with the Tojan part. However do not forget that Freo like StKilda got him in with the brief to chase the flag immediately.


Personally I think it will be fascinating to watch Lyon and Freo now that after about Round 5 that Lyon's brief has been changed to the dreaded "R" one. Rebuilding. As you now say he has to totally re-invent himself. Many coaches flounder in such a phase.

[Con Gorozidis]

Btw
They did win 3 flags... So SR doesn't help your argument

Really?? Why not?? Were the Cats in a different competition to StKilda? Do they hand out flags for coming second or third?
And actually it was Con's and your argument. I was just pointing out the flaw in it.

The Con theory was that Brownless could have coached St Kilda to 2 premieships as he had 10 AAs. Now unless there is some alternate universe that would mean that we had to knock off the Cats.

Con and you keep quoting the 10AA line that supposedly would deliver someone who had never coached not just one premiership but two.

I was just pointing that the Cats had 16AA, and not to metion all of their AA's were within a few years of our flag window, and all won at the Cats. Whereas not all of the StKilda 10 were near that time window, and not all won at the Saints. So extending Con's logic the Cats should have easily acounted for the Saints. That is of course unless there were other factors like coaching that came into play, or that relying on AA "won at anytime" is not a measure in itself.

So if that is your and Con's argument that the Saints should have won two flags and that any moron could have done it then your logic is flawed.

I also pointed out that the preceding StKilda coach had by Con's measure more AA's than Lyon but did not make GF's. So agin your logic is flawed.

Big Mart you are normally an anylytical type of guy and so I am surprised that you go along with Con on this.


Lyon may well have been a one trick pony, and may well remain that, but IMO he had one trick at the right time for StKilda. My view remains that another coach at that particualr junction in time is unlikely to have matched or bettered Lyon record with us. Who knows maybe Clakson could have, but I doubt any other coach would have.

I am not saying 'any moron' could have won a flag. I firmly believe Lyon is a good coach. Well above average. I put him in the same category as Eade and Northey. That probably puts him in the top 10-15% of all coaches in history. I am just saying if we had a really really good coach (top 10%) - we could/should have won at least one flag with that group of players (10 x AA).

[whiskers3614]

Lyon lovers getting fewer all the time on here.

We all know who the true believers are!