Saintsational Fan Forum - A passionate community of St Kilda Football Club fans discussing news, history, players, trade rumours, results, AFL stats and more.
Ghost Like wrote: ↑Sun 16 Sep 2018 2:04pm
Petracca does from time to time get a run in the midfield or off a wing. Yes, predominantly on the half forward line. With a midfield of Jones, Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney plus others, Petracca is a luxury. Petracca will be one of those with the ability to play one out from the goal square. Not required to do that at present with McDonald, Weideman and Hogan.
He is versatile or certainly will be given another two seasons.
Unfortunately McCartin has one position to make his own, the pressure to do that is immense on top of being #1, his documented illness, multiple concussions and being in an average team where everything is magnified when the cracks appear.
It was not his fault he was #1, that falls on Elshaug, the U/18 system allowing bigger kids more freedom and our own panic.
His brother appears a better prospect, highlighted by a more professional club in Sydney.
I wish Paddy could play in another position then he would be worth another year or two but wishes are easy, it is the reality that's hard to take.
Great point...
Elshaug, do you mind answering this one for all us paying members....
Tony the flog says : “When we made the home visit you could just see he came from good stock through the hospitality and how genuine his family were and are as people and the kind of upbringing he had had,”
“It made you think to yourself that this is a good family, these are good people. Sometimes you can just tell from the warmth and the vibe when you walk into a home."
Now Tony...you know this has nothing to do with being a good footballer don't you....YOU F*CKING INEPT INCOMPETENT FLOG THAT YOU ARE!!! PLEASE F*CK OFF ALREADY!!!
I gather you don't like Elshaug. All clubs had McCartin in the top 3.
Interestingly, if you look at the Elshaug draft/trade period and look at players traded in/recruited, and assuming a player is at least a GOP if he plays, or has shown the talent to play 50 games, there are 30 players in that period.
That does not include players like Paton, Pierce, who may well play 50 games.
For the 2005-10 draft period, players who have played more than 50 games - 8.
Granted the draft picks in the earlier period were generally not as good, but that is a major discrepancy, and imo drafting in that era was far worse, and is causing us problems with senior experience now. The Elshaugh period would compare OK with many clubs.
Ghost Like wrote: ↑Sun 16 Sep 2018 2:04pm
Petracca does from time to time get a run in the midfield or off a wing. Yes, predominantly on the half forward line. With a midfield of Jones, Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney plus others, Petracca is a luxury. Petracca will be one of those with the ability to play one out from the goal square. Not required to do that at present with McDonald, Weideman and Hogan.
He is versatile or certainly will be given another two seasons.
Unfortunately McCartin has one position to make his own, the pressure to do that is immense on top of being #1, his documented illness, multiple concussions and being in an average team where everything is magnified when the cracks appear.
It was not his fault he was #1, that falls on Elshaug, the U/18 system allowing bigger kids more freedom and our own panic.
His brother appears a better prospect, highlighted by a more professional club in Sydney.
I wish Paddy could play in another position then he would be worth another year or two but wishes are easy, it is the reality that's hard to take.
Great point...
Elshaug, do you mind answering this one for all us paying members....
Tony the flog says : “When we made the home visit you could just see he came from good stock through the hospitality and how genuine his family were and are as people and the kind of upbringing he had had,”
“It made you think to yourself that this is a good family, these are good people. Sometimes you can just tell from the warmth and the vibe when you walk into a home."
Now Tony...you know this has nothing to do with being a good footballer don't you....YOU F*CKING INEPT INCOMPETENT FLOG THAT YOU ARE!!! PLEASE F*CK OFF ALREADY!!!
I gather you don't like Elshaug. All clubs had McCartin in the top 3.
Interestingly, if you look at the Elshaug draft/trade period and look at players traded in/recruited, and assuming a player is at least a GOP if he plays, or has shown the talent to play 50 games, there are 30 players in that period.
That does not include players like Paton, Pierce, who may well play 50 games.
For the 2005-10 draft period, players who have played more than 50 games - 8.
Granted the draft picks in the earlier period were generally not as good, but that is a major discrepancy, and imo drafting in that era was far worse, and is causing us problems with senior experience now. The Elshaugh period would compare OK with many clubs.
With all due respect takeaway, a GOP at St.Kilda and Carlton are not GOPs elsewhere.
They wouldn't get a game elsewhere, so to say that we have recruited 50+ game players - is a 'success' doesn't make any sense - as it's inside a bubble
When you fill your list with crap, you only have crap to choose from - 50+ games is no amazing achievement in an environment like that.
For example - Mr Jack Newnes would not have gotten another game after the first couple of rounds in another club, but at the Saints he was played every week consistently - each week he was poorer and poorer.
With your rationale, you would say - "That Jack Newnes, now he was an awesome pick up - 50+ games player!!"...umm.....no
I think I would rather roll the dice and keep McCartin unless we think that his health issues will prevent him from ever getting fully AFL fit.
I've seen him do some very good things in games, continuity has really cruelled his career so far with 7 being the most games consecutive he's played and only 35 in total.
He may not become a star, but could still be a very handy player if he gets his body right.
I don't think another ordinary year would damage his trade value too much… he may go from a mid 2nd rounder to a 3rd rounder, so keep him for another year and try to work him towards 50 games… a bit of confidence and a few goals would go a long way.
Ghost Like wrote: ↑Sun 16 Sep 2018 2:04pm
Petracca does from time to time get a run in the midfield or off a wing. Yes, predominantly on the half forward line. With a midfield of Jones, Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney plus others, Petracca is a luxury. Petracca will be one of those with the ability to play one out from the goal square. Not required to do that at present with McDonald, Weideman and Hogan.
He is versatile or certainly will be given another two seasons.
Unfortunately McCartin has one position to make his own, the pressure to do that is immense on top of being #1, his documented illness, multiple concussions and being in an average team where everything is magnified when the cracks appear.
It was not his fault he was #1, that falls on Elshaug, the U/18 system allowing bigger kids more freedom and our own panic.
His brother appears a better prospect, highlighted by a more professional club in Sydney.
I wish Paddy could play in another position then he would be worth another year or two but wishes are easy, it is the reality that's hard to take.
Great point...
Elshaug, do you mind answering this one for all us paying members....
Tony the flog says : “When we made the home visit you could just see he came from good stock through the hospitality and how genuine his family were and are as people and the kind of upbringing he had had,”
“It made you think to yourself that this is a good family, these are good people. Sometimes you can just tell from the warmth and the vibe when you walk into a home."
Now Tony...you know this has nothing to do with being a good footballer don't you....YOU F*CKING INEPT INCOMPETENT FLOG THAT YOU ARE!!! PLEASE F*CK OFF ALREADY!!!
I gather you don't like Elshaug. All clubs had McCartin in the top 3.
Interestingly, if you look at the Elshaug draft/trade period and look at players traded in/recruited, and assuming a player is at least a GOP if he plays, or has shown the talent to play 50 games, there are 30 players in that period.
That does not include players like Paton, Pierce, who may well play 50 games.
For the 2005-10 draft period, players who have played more than 50 games - 8.
Granted the draft picks in the earlier period were generally not as good, but that is a major discrepancy, and imo drafting in that era was far worse, and is causing us problems with senior experience now. The Elshaugh period would compare OK with many clubs.
With all due respect takeaway, a GOP at St.Kilda and Carlton are not GOPs elsewhere.
They wouldn't get a game elsewhere, so to say that we have recruited 50+ game players - is a 'success' doesn't make any sense - as it's inside a bubble
When you fill your list with crap, you only have crap to choose from - 50+ games is no amazing achievement in an environment like that.
For example - Mr Jack Newnes would not have gotten another game after the first couple of rounds in another club, but at the Saints he was played every week consistently - each week he was poorer and poorer.
With your rationale, you would say - "That Jack Newnes, now he was an awesome pick up - 50+ games player!!"...umm.....no
I agree we haven't recruited enough B+ or A Graders. But you missed the point - at least the Elshaugh period was better than the 6 or so years before that, which was a disaster, and is costing us now. 50 games plus is at least some sort of measure, I am not saying they necessarily were an awesome pick up. You mentioned Newnes, didn't have a good year this year (with plenty of others), but earlier years have been pretty good and would have got a game with quite a few sides. Will be interesting if we try to trade out some of our "GOPs" - whether other clubs are interested, and how they go at other clubs. I reckon better than you think.
This topic seems to get rehashed once a month and reaches much the same conclusion.
Bothy Paddy and Billings were always going top 3 regardless of which club had the picks. If not the saints, Paddy would be a Dee. We got spooked by Boyd and went KPF.
Pick one historically rarely ends up the best player in the draft - its not an exact science.
Had we have taken Petracca, we would have been disappointed because at this stage, he would go about pick 5 in a 2014 redraft.
Besides, i think the recruiters earn their money with the later picks - not first rounders
I just think we have had more issues around developing players than recruiting them.
FWIW, Paddy has shed a ton of weight and i think with the 6-6-6 thing, he might have a big year (head knocks permitting)
If u compare Maynard and JDG v Paddy and Goddard.
Then take in to account the Pies had 11 wins in 2014 and we only had 4 so they were coming off a higher base then it's no surprise they are in a prelim.
The other comparison is when they had a season of 9 wins it was a huge catastrophe. The sky was falling in.
If we have a season of 9 wins we are up and about and full of optimism and back slapping.
Like when we went close to Hawthorn we were pleased.
They won the game but were ropable.
I am not sure he has been "unlucky" with injuries. Unlucky means you don't normally get something and it happens. Injuries just seem to be the norm over his entire football life.
BenLong#21 wrote: ↑Mon 17 Sep 2018 1:06pm
If u compare Maynard and JDG v Paddy and Goddard.
Then take in to account the Pies had 11 wins in 2014 and we only had 4 so they were coming off a higher base then it's no surprise they are in a prelim.
The other comparison is when they had a season of 9 wins it was a huge catastrophe. The sky was falling in.
If we have a season of 9 wins we are up and about and full of optimism and back slapping.
Like when we went close to Hawthorn we were pleased.
They won the game but were ropable.
BenLong#21 wrote: ↑Mon 17 Sep 2018 1:06pm
If u compare Maynard and JDG v Paddy and Goddard.
Then take in to account the Pies had 11 wins in 2014 and we only had 4 so they were coming off a higher base then it's no surprise they are in a prelim.
The other comparison is when they had a season of 9 wins it was a huge catastrophe. The sky was falling in.
If we have a season of 9 wins we are up and about and full of optimism and back slapping.
Like when we went close to Hawthorn we were pleased.
They won the game but were ropable.
Big cultural differences.
Yep and Paddy could easily be playing in a prelim this weekend… Cox is an absolute spud.
BenLong#21 wrote: ↑Mon 17 Sep 2018 1:06pm
If u compare Maynard and JDG v Paddy and Goddard.
Then take in to account the Pies had 11 wins in 2014 and we only had 4 so they were coming off a higher base then it's no surprise they are in a prelim.
The other comparison is when they had a season of 9 wins it was a huge catastrophe. The sky was falling in.
If we have a season of 9 wins we are up and about and full of optimism and back slapping.
Like when we went close to Hawthorn we were pleased.
They won the game but were ropable.
Big cultural differences.
Hard to do direct comparisons, but Collingwood have had their fair share of cultural issues. Also had their fair share of draft misses.
The natural advantage they have is more money, better resourced, other ways of remunerating players outside the cap, ability to attract players as a destination club
I am not sure he has been "unlucky" with injuries. Unlucky means you don't normally get something and it happens. Injuries just seem to be the norm over his entire football life.
Ghost Like wrote: ↑Sun 16 Sep 2018 2:04pm
Petracca does from time to time get a run in the midfield or off a wing. Yes, predominantly on the half forward line. With a midfield of Jones, Oliver, Brayshaw, Viney plus others, Petracca is a luxury. Petracca will be one of those with the ability to play one out from the goal square. Not required to do that at present with McDonald, Weideman and Hogan.
He is versatile or certainly will be given another two seasons.
Unfortunately McCartin has one position to make his own, the pressure to do that is immense on top of being #1, his documented illness, multiple concussions and being in an average team where everything is magnified when the cracks appear.
It was not his fault he was #1, that falls on Elshaug, the U/18 system allowing bigger kids more freedom and our own panic.
His brother appears a better prospect, highlighted by a more professional club in Sydney.
I wish Paddy could play in another position then he would be worth another year or two but wishes are easy, it is the reality that's hard to take.
Great point...
Elshaug, do you mind answering this one for all us paying members....
Tony the flog says : “When we made the home visit you could just see he came from good stock through the hospitality and how genuine his family were and are as people and the kind of upbringing he had had,”
“It made you think to yourself that this is a good family, these are good people. Sometimes you can just tell from the warmth and the vibe when you walk into a home."
Now Tony...you know this has nothing to do with being a good footballer don't you....YOU F*CKING INEPT INCOMPETENT FLOG THAT YOU ARE!!! PLEASE F*CK OFF ALREADY!!!
I gather you don't like Elshaug. All clubs had McCartin in the top 3.
Interestingly, if you look at the Elshaug draft/trade period and look at players traded in/recruited, and assuming a player is at least a GOP if he plays, or has shown the talent to play 50 games, there are 30 players in that period.
That does not include players like Paton, Pierce, who may well play 50 games.
For the 2005-10 draft period, players who have played more than 50 games - 8.
Granted the draft picks in the earlier period were generally not as good, but that is a major discrepancy, and imo drafting in that era was far worse, and is causing us problems with senior experience now. The Elshaugh period would compare OK with many clubs.
With all due respect takeaway, a GOP at St.Kilda and Carlton are not GOPs elsewhere.
They wouldn't get a game elsewhere, so to say that we have recruited 50+ game players - is a 'success' doesn't make any sense - as it's inside a bubble
When you fill your list with crap, you only have crap to choose from - 50+ games is no amazing achievement in an environment like that.
For example - Mr Jack Newnes would not have gotten another game after the first couple of rounds in another club, but at the Saints he was played every week consistently - each week he was poorer and poorer.
With your rationale, you would say - "That Jack Newnes, now he was an awesome pick up - 50+ games player!!"...umm.....no
I agree we haven't recruited enough B+ or A Graders. But you missed the point - at least the Elshaugh period was better than the 6 or so years before that, which was a disaster, and is costing us now. 50 games plus is at least some sort of measure, I am not saying they necessarily were an awesome pick up. You mentioned Newnes, didn't have a good year this year (with plenty of others), but earlier years have been pretty good and would have got a game with quite a few sides. Will be interesting if we try to trade out some of our "GOPs" - whether other clubs are interested, and how they go at other clubs. I reckon better than you think.
Elshaug was the club’s Recruiting Manager from 2011 to 2014 before stepping up to the role of Recruiting and List manager at the end of 2014.
Are you referring to a 6 year period before 2011?
In regards to Newnes...IMO I don't believe he has been any good for a few years now....and racks up possessions from having the ball kicked backwards to him.
He will never get traded out while Richo is there, as they have some man love going on between them.
If hypothetically he DID get traded, I think you would find that he would be poor again at another side....and then I suppose Saints loyalists will start to blame that other team's 'development' of him again....sigh*
I am happy to admit that I am wrong if the opposite happens....but I don't believe that it will.
The only chance for him is for the AFL to bring in zones.
Knowing the Saints "luck" they will trade him then the AFL will bring in the zones.
Hold him and the zones wont come in.
repta wrote: ↑Mon 17 Sep 2018 5:40pm
The only chance for him is for the AFL to bring in zones.
Knowing the Saints "luck" they will trade him then the AFL will bring in the zones.
Hold him and the zones wont come in.
This is true. I've been saying this since mid-year when the competition committee met. If they reduce congestion and make more 1 on 1's via the 6/6/6 rule - Paddy is a chance. Otherwise - he's not mobile enough to work up and back to burn a defender or we're not smart enough as a coaching group to isolate him.
He would look a completely different player if you put him in a team with a midfield that can hit him on the chest when he leads rather than sit it on his head or bouncing at his feet
Will always look like a rubbish player with our current midfield.
Life is never more fun than when you're the underdog competing against the giants.
SaintPav wrote: ↑Mon 17 Sep 2018 8:49pm
Direct swap for Hanners. Rumours it’s being discussed as well.
Richo just said on 360 not happening Paddy is a part of the future plan & is staying & that Dan Hanneberry can be the player he was & he still has head in the sand IMO
No problem with McCartin staying, so long as the team is picked on merit. I’ve seen nothing to suggest he should be ahead of Bruce or Membrey ... or Marshall for that matter.
I am not sure he has been "unlucky" with injuries. Unlucky means you don't normally get something and it happens. Injuries just seem to be the norm over his entire football life.
Interesting.
I watched him standing next to Carlisle in the warm up earlier this year, and he looked to be the same height. Possibly only slightly shorter. And Jake is listed at 201cm.
