Seb Ross

[The_Dud]

A lot of straw-man arguments being thrown out by the ‘Seb truthers’.

Everyone agrees Seb is a good/handy player that has the capabilities of playing very good games. You need good/handy players to make up a great side.

Some seem to refuse to acknowledge Seb’s limitations, most notably disposal by foot and hitting the scoreboard, these are a few of the things that hold him back from reaching the next level where players like Steele, Sinclair and Gresh currently sit.

I have been watching Seb's disposal by foot very closely for all five games. It's a lot better than others in the side and something he has been badly maligned over. Even hit the scoreboard on saturday.

I would prefer all his shots on goal go between the two big sticks, stop trying to hit the scoreboard.

Yep he doesn’t do that either.

In 160+ games he has kicked only 30 goals!

I haven’t yet found another mid with a lower goal ratio than him.

[SaintPav]

Vortex

Are you vaccinated?

Relevance to anything, Kapo!

[CQ SAINT]

For a club with one flag, we sure like to hero worship.
We love a fight to the death and bar one, season after season we die.
Then when club development takes priority over hero worship, we look to chop off the head and implode, back into the worship of fallen heroes.
It plagues us. All of us. Then we blame Richmond, Carlton, Sydney at el, for wooing our guns and the media and its array of successful ex footballers, for pointing out our failures. Only we are allowed to do that.

[Scollop]

For a club with one flag, we sure like to hero worship.
We love a fight to the death and bar one, season after season we die.
Then when club development takes priority over hero worship, we look to chop off the head and implode, back into the worship of fallen heroes.
It plagues us. All of us. Then we blame Richmond, Carlton, Sydney at el, for wooing our guns and the media and its array of successful ex footballers, for pointing out our failures. Only we are allowed to do that.

Nailed it.

The pursuit of our second premiership needs to be the focus and the club’s future is in jeopardy if we can’t get close in the short or medium term future

If I hear a coach or someone from the footy department say “we’re not changing” or “we’re not dropping _____” … I’ll fair dinkum spew!!

And there are still little remnants of this hero worship and protection of individuals from within the club. Gears could have been a Sandy player and could have been offered a position as an assistant coach. I can understand that he is former captain of the club and a warrior, but why did we keep him as a player on the senior list? It is wishful thinking to say that he’ll come good at the end of the year.

And don’t come at me with crap about not respecting Jarryn. I’ve been a huge fan of his throughout his career and supported his elevation as captain when many on here didn’t.

[takeaway]

For a club with one flag, we sure like to hero worship.
We love a fight to the death and bar one, season after season we die.
Then when club development takes priority over hero worship, we look to chop off the head and implode, back into the worship of fallen heroes.
It plagues us. All of us. Then we blame Richmond, Carlton, Sydney at el, for wooing our guns and the media and its array of successful ex footballers, for pointing out our failures. Only we are allowed to do that.

Quite a broad statement, I'm unclear what you are getting at.

Any specific examples to illustrate your point, if you are indeed making one?

[B.M]

I would say, less of hero worshipping and more about defending a player against bulls***

[CQ SAINT]

For a club with one flag, we sure like to hero worship.
We love a fight to the death and bar one, season after season we die.
Then when club development takes priority over hero worship, we look to chop off the head and implode, back into the worship of fallen heroes.
It plagues us. All of us. Then we blame Richmond, Carlton, Sydney at el, for wooing our guns and the media and its array of successful ex footballers, for pointing out our failures. Only we are allowed to do that.

Quite a broad statement, I'm unclear what you are getting at.

Any specific examples to illustrate your point, if you are indeed making one?

I think there is an example specific to this post. Have you read it?

[CQ SAINT]

Calling for improvements in the skills of our most awarded players, being stripped down to false claims of a mob of detractors saying he is s*** and should be dropped or traded, even after evidence is presented which supports that his game has been further developed, tweaked and formatted under a 'best for team and club' ethos, that he has tested the waters elsewhere, that he has stood back from leadership duties after he was top 2 in the B&F for 3 years, and served as captain in a B&F year is bulshot if you ask me.
All the while, the list has been flipped and we have talented youth coming on, mercenaries have been employed in recruiting, coaching and the playing list, our non existent game plan, which has had us in finals 2020, and likely again in 2022 and from no where we seemingly have the depth to cover our current absences and win 4/5 with a very healthy percentage and an average out put of 13.9 and deficit of 10.7 over the last 13 games since the bye last year, is what's called priotising development and structure.
The peanut gallery in here has been too busy bitching, whining and worshiping heroes, to notice.

[takeaway]

For a club with one flag, we sure like to hero worship.
We love a fight to the death and bar one, season after season we die.
Then when club development takes priority over hero worship, we look to chop off the head and implode, back into the worship of fallen heroes.
It plagues us. All of us. Then we blame Richmond, Carlton, Sydney at el, for wooing our guns and the media and its array of successful ex footballers, for pointing out our failures. Only we are allowed to do that.

Quite a broad statement, I'm unclear what you are getting at.

Any specific examples to illustrate your point, if you are indeed making one?

I think there is an example specific to this post. Have you read it?

Nope, can't see anything relevant. So, no examples? Fair enough.

[CQ SAINT]

For a club with one flag, we sure like to hero worship.
We love a fight to the death and bar one, season after season we die.
Then when club development takes priority over hero worship, we look to chop off the head and implode, back into the worship of fallen heroes.
It plagues us. All of us. Then we blame Richmond, Carlton, Sydney at el, for wooing our guns and the media and its array of successful ex footballers, for pointing out our failures. Only we are allowed to do that.

Quite a broad statement, I'm unclear what you are getting at.

Any specific examples to illustrate your point, if you are indeed making one?

I think there is an example specific to this post. Have you read it?

Nope, can't see anything relevant. So, no examples? Fair enough.

Another strong contribution to the conversation. Cheers

[saynta]

Since when does sticking up for a very good footballer being continually maligned on this forum by posters who consistently display very little real football knowledge, constitute hero worship?

To me that is just another attempted put down by someone trying to justify the unjustifiable.

[Yorkeys]

It's possible to appreciate Seb and also acknowledge/embrace the good changes in management, coaching, recruitment, player development, fitness and membership that have taken the Club a long way from the dark decade days ?

Don't have to be mutually exclusive. Seb in the side is not a proxy for failure. Is it?

Fans liking Seb and the Club managing the end of Jarryn's career in a mutually respectful and profession manner which includes where he continues some role of benefit is hardly going to stop the trajectory of our improvement. Possibly helps underpin it.

[B.M]

Is it possible to respect a player who in those ‘dark days’ was our best performed player or thereabouts?

I consider our dark days the 1980s when we won 6 wooden spoons in 8 years and were only winning about 4 games and losing by massive margins?

The 2010’s we won 1 spoon and that was when Seb was only 20 and barely in the 22.

How does everyone rate Jack Steven?

[CQ SAINT]

Is it possible to respect a player who in those ‘dark days’ was our best performed player or thereabouts?

I consider our dark days the 1980s when we won 6 wooden spoons in 8 years and were only winning about 4 games and losing by massive margins?

The 2010’s we won 1 spoon and that was when Seb was only 20 and barely in the 22.

How does everyone rate Jack Steven?

Gone and therefore irrelevant.

[B.M]

Definitely relevant to discussion

[CQ SAINT]

Definitely relevant to discussion

Ok then. He was very quick, powerful, had great timing on his attack on the ball and like Seb, he was able to stand up and produce effective response to overwhelming opposition.
Unlike Seb, he had a high impact offensively and was a known goal kicker and could produce attacking forays of goal in a short time and do his work at stoppage and around the ground.
His kicking was ok but could be inconsistent and was well below his other abilities, and some might think his preparation and personal conduct was questionable. In the end, there was little doubt that he went off the rails.

Its moderately relevant to the era and provides a clear point of difference between our two most offensive catalysts in the mid to late Richo era, post our push for glory under Lyon and the post the retirements and clean out of the stars of that era.

[skeptic]

Jack Steven was a much better player IMO
Reached the elite standard and stayed there. Backed up week after week despite getting heavy attention and won more than his fair share of games for us. Match winner.

Clearly the stand out player the years he won the B&Fs (4 times) for us and none were or have been questioned. Demonstrates his consistency in excellence

How Jack gets flak for being a great player in poor teams (meant as a slight on his B&Fs) but the same ppl are livid if similar suggestions are made about Ross is beyond me. Steven produced.

The kid did everything he could do.

Disappointed his career ended the way it did but he fell on some tough times and didn’t cope.

[B.M]

I think Jack was a better player than Seb too… star player in a poor team

Reason I bring him up, check out where the team finished in his B&F years?

Are those awards meaningless because the team was poor? Absolutely not!!!

He performed well regardless of having a poor team around him!

So tell me

Why the different rules for Seb?

We can’t use two different arguments for two different players to suit agendas?

Either we rate none or we rate both… can’t have it both ways!!!

[B.M]

Furthermore

Both Trevor Barker’s B&Fs were in wooden spoon seasons

Same with Greg Burns

Barker I would call a star

Burns a very good player

Their B&F awards are in no way meaningless because of the team they played in, in fact it shows they stood up, despite being in a s*** team!

[CQ SAINT]

Furthermore

Both Trevor Barker’s B&Fs were in wooden spoon seasons

Same with Greg Burns

Barker I would call a star

Burns a very good player

Their B&F awards are in no way meaningless because of the team they played in, in fact it shows they stood up, despite being in a s*** team!

Whats this got to do with the way Ratten has handled Seb Ross.and they way Seb has responded

[CQ SAINT]

You respect Ross's B&F's. I think Marshall and Roberton were better players, that doesn't detract from Ross's efforts.

[CQ SAINT]

The way Richo and his cohort valued Ross, must be one of the shining accomplishments of their coaching careers. He certainly can't be blamed for letting them down. Bit aspects of what he was doing were changed after Ratten and IMO, those changes, which Ross has executed, has made him a better player and us a better team and club.

[skeptic]

I think Jack was a better player than Seb too… star player in a poor team

Reason I bring him up, check out where the team finished in his B&F years?

Are those awards meaningless because the team was poor? Absolutely not!!!

He performed well regardless of having a poor team around him!

So tell me

Why the different rules for Seb?

We can’t use two different arguments for two different players to suit agendas?

Either we rate none or we rate both… can’t have it both ways!!!

I don’t know what argument you’re making.

Both are rated. Not equally because Steven was by far the better player.

When Steven won his awards he was a clear, undisputed winner and was widely regarded as an elite player. He backed up for 5-6 years ish

When Ross won his… his second one in particular a lot of ppl felt Roma deserved it (right or wrong) and though his first year was more clear cut, there is a contingent that felt Roberton was a better candidate (I think… I don’t really remember).

Steven went on to produce back to back consistent performances and established himself as an elite player beyond doubt.

Ross dropped a level and whilst playing mostly at a top 22 standard, has been more inconsistent with his standard/effort questioned at times.
Whether you agree or not… there’s no argument that he’s attracted heavy criticism over the last 2-3 years for not playing consistently to the standard expected of him

Why is there an argument as to why both aren’t rated equally.

They’re not.

Do we think whoever kicked the most goals for the club last year is on par with Gehrig’s 2004… they both kicked the most goals for the club. That’s a stat right. Performance is equal?

Don’t know why I’m bothering answering though because the argument is always the same.

Let me ask you this… do you think Ross was as good in 2020, 2021 and so far in 2022 as he was in 2017?

[B.M]

You think Roberton and Marshall were better?

The people who matter, and have far more football knowledge and insight than you didn’t

FWIW
I thought Ro would win in 19
But he didn’t - he had better games, but obviously Ross was more consistent.

In 2017
Ross was easily our best player - he was clear favourite going in and won easily polling in 20 out of 22 games!

1. Seb Ross 159 votes
2. Dylan Roberton 124 votes
3. Jarryn Geary 121 votes
4. Jake Carlisle 119 votes
5. Jack Billings 110 votes
6. Jack Steven 108 votes
7. Jimmy Webster 88 votes
8. Jack Newnes 83
9. Jade Gresham 81 votes
10. Nathan Brown 78 votes

[CQ SAINT]

You think Roberton and Marshall were better?

The people who matter, and have far more football knowledge and insight than you didn’t

FWIW
I thought Ro would win in 19
But he didn’t - he had better games, but obviously Ross was more consistent.

In 2017
Ross was easily our best player - he was clear favourite going in and won easily polling in 20 out of 22 games!

1. Seb Ross 159 votes
2. Dylan Roberton 124 votes
3. Jarryn Geary 121 votes
4. Jake Carlisle 119 votes
5. Jack Billings 110 votes
6. Jack Steven 108 votes
7. Jimmy Webster 88 votes
8. Jack Newnes 83
9. Jade Gresham 81 votes
10. Nathan Brown 78 votes

Fair argument. I still believe Roberton to be the better footballer.
Interesting that a coaching panel who have taken us to another level since these geniuses from the Richo era, clearly haven't rated Ross the same way, or, he hasn't played as well. You can make up your own mind.
In 2017 Seb Ross dominated our voting.
That brings us back to the original connection in our thoughts. No surprises there but you've thrown out a few insults, introduced some ridiculous comparisons and proven very little to back your opinions other than some outstanding performances by Ross that he has struggled to emulate consistently for the majority of his 160 games.