Dear Ross Lyon

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SainterK
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223757Post SainterK »

Spinner wrote:Best coach in the AFL.
You think?

This years results won't impact that thought process?

What if say Watters can get the Saints deep into the finals, or Sanderson can pull the Crows up to a GF appearance in the space of 12 months?

I liked Ross, not sure I considered him the best in the business though, could you expand a little?

(oh and skeptic questioned Ross a lot earlier than 2011, I remember)


plugger66
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223759Post plugger66 »

skeptic wrote:
SaintPav wrote: Did posters like Septic and others make these call at the time? I'd say no...At least SainterK has the guts to back certain players in.
One frustrating thing is that the answer was yes... didn't like the team selected at the time and I said so... can't prove it now and you just go on and on about calling me a hindsight specialist whilst forumites that have been here longer like Sainter K can at least remember that my criticism started growing a lot more mid 2010.



My issue in 09 was a simple one. As the game at TD in 09 showed Geelong were a strong finishing team which meant we needed run. Anything less than an 6-7 goal 3/4 time lead was going to go down to the wire.

The team we selected had both king and Gardiner who were average at best then... Dempster as a forward utility (not the close checking defender we have since come to love). 2 of 3 of them shd have made way for runners.

In the last 1/4 we fatigued, lost the ability to run and spread and could barely get our hands on the pill... which was compounded by the decision to take Ball off which was a MISTAKE the coaches acknowledged although in my opinon they did it deliberately

It never ceases to amaze me that some of you guys simply cannot fathom that RL made some poor decisions on the day and that it wasn't just the players missing goals... it's such a simplistic argument. If one of those goals had gone through obviously the game would have changed but we'd still have a team that would run out of steam

Tell me you are joking that a game in round 14 showed that the side we would play 10 weeks later was a strong finishing team. Does that make Sydney a strong finishing team so we better prepare for that?

Anyway seen that you have said that what you are saying is not hindsight you sould be able to show us many posts in 09 where you said similar comments and I dont mean after the GF. Can you show us a few?


plugger66
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223760Post plugger66 »

SainterK wrote:
Spinner wrote:Best coach in the AFL.
You think?

This years results won't impact that thought process?

What if say Watters can get the Saints deep into the finals, or Sanderson can pull the Crows up to a GF appearance in the space of 12 months?

I liked Ross, not sure I considered him the best in the business though, could you expand a little?

(oh and skeptic questioned Ross a lot earlier than 2011, I remember)

If you didnt think he was the best you at least had him in the top one. I love your loyalty but He has left so some people do change their mind.


SainterK
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223762Post SainterK »

plugger66 wrote:
SainterK wrote:
Spinner wrote:Best coach in the AFL.
You think?

This years results won't impact that thought process?

What if say Watters can get the Saints deep into the finals, or Sanderson can pull the Crows up to a GF appearance in the space of 12 months?

I liked Ross, not sure I considered him the best in the business though, could you expand a little?

(oh and skeptic questioned Ross a lot earlier than 2011, I remember)

If you didnt think he was the best you at least had him in the top one. I love your loyalty but He has left so some people do change their mind.
He had my full support while he was there.

Does that mean I think he was the best?

Hadn't thought about it to be honest, I guess I always assume that premiership coaches are the best, however perhaps Spinner is alluding to the fact that there isn't many of those around now other than Chris Scott?

One thing you can't argue is that I am more loyal to the players, than the coach, reckon they are a pretty special bunch this era.


plugger66
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223766Post plugger66 »

SainterK wrote:
plugger66 wrote:



If you didnt think he was the best you at least had him in the top one. I love your loyalty but He has left so some people do change their mind.
He had my full support while he was there.

Does that mean I think he was the best?

Hadn't thought about it to be honest, I guess I always assume that premiership coaches are the best, however perhaps Spinner is alluding to the fact that there isn't many of those around now other than Chris Scott?

One thing you can't argue is that I am more loyal to the players, than the coach, reckon they are a pretty special bunch this era.

There is actually 3 premiership coaches. And I aint saying you think he is the best now but I think you may have when he coached us. It just seems that you think he made a fair errors not that i heard about them at the time. maybe I missed it as I am hardly on here.


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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223767Post Sobraz »

Spinner wrote:Best coach in the AFL.
Haha, ok...

Zac's the best fullback then too...


SainterK
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223768Post SainterK »

plugger66 wrote:
SainterK wrote:
plugger66 wrote:



If you didnt think he was the best you at least had him in the top one. I love your loyalty but He has left so some people do change their mind.
He had my full support while he was there.

Does that mean I think he was the best?

Hadn't thought about it to be honest, I guess I always assume that premiership coaches are the best, however perhaps Spinner is alluding to the fact that there isn't many of those around now other than Chris Scott?

One thing you can't argue is that I am more loyal to the players, than the coach, reckon they are a pretty special bunch this era.

There is actually 3 premiership coaches. And I aint saying you think he is the best now but I think you may have when he coached us. It just seems that you think he made a fair errors not that i heard about them at the time. maybe I missed it as I am hardly on here.
Errors?

He admitted the Luke Ball getting less minutes than he should of, that was well publicised and discussed on here.

I was very vocal about my annoyance in his retiring players that didn't want to be retired, and his poor coaching v Sydney in the elimination final (not sure you'd define that as an error, probably more opinion)

The fact is gameplan is fatiguing shouldn't be lost on anyone, that's just fact.

I think his biggest 'error' is more recent, and that is underestimating the character of the players he had at his disposal at St Kilda.


Old Mate
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223772Post Old Mate »

Ross was judged to be one of he best coaches based on his coaching performance and the perception of the St Kilda list. Throughout his tenure at the Saints most thought the top end talent was very good however dropped off significantly after that. Basically he coached an above average team (not great) to successive grand finals, almost winning two in the process however ultimately falling short on both occasions.

In hindsight I don't believe the players were given enough credit. After seeing Ross's performances last year and this season so far I have my doubts that he has the coaching smarts to have the longevity of Malthouse and Sheedy. So far Lyon has shown me that he cannot adapt to change. And it all comes down to premierships. If he fails to win one with Freo before he leaves/gets sacked then that'll be it for him as an AFL coach IMO.


plugger66
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223774Post plugger66 »

SainterK wrote:
plugger66 wrote:
SainterK wrote:





He had my full support while he was there.

Does that mean I think he was the best?

Hadn't thought about it to be honest, I guess I always assume that premiership coaches are the best, however perhaps Spinner is alluding to the fact that there isn't many of those around now other than Chris Scott?

One thing you can't argue is that I am more loyal to the players, than the coach, reckon they are a pretty special bunch this era.

There is actually 3 premiership coaches. And I aint saying you think he is the best now but I think you may have when he coached us. It just seems that you think he made a fair errors not that i heard about them at the time. maybe I missed it as I am hardly on here.
Errors?

He admitted the Luke Ball getting less minutes than he should of, that was well publicised and discussed on here.

I was very vocal about my annoyance in his retiring players that didn't want to be retired, and his poor coaching v Sydney in the elimination final (not sure you'd define that as an error, probably more opinion)

The fact is gameplan is fatiguing shouldn't be lost on anyone, that's just fact.

I think his biggest 'error' is more recent, and that is underestimating the character of the players he had at his disposal at St Kilda.

So one error till the last game he coached the saints in suggested that you thought he made bugger all errors in your opinion. He seems to have made a lot more for us since he left. You arent on your own though. Yes some people didnt like his coaching but it is amazing how that some has become most. Leave the Saints in a poor way and there goes your ability. Ball is the best example of that. Better than Judd was a thread at one stage. A hack when he left and now poeple are totally confused. They blame RL and he isnt a hack anymore.


Old Mate
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223776Post Old Mate »

Oh and the best coach in the AFL is Kevin Sheedy. Winning at least one premiership in each of the last three decades. An amazing effort. My money is on him winning another flag this decade with GWS.


plugger66
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223778Post plugger66 »

Old Mate wrote:Oh and the best coach in the AFL is Kevin Sheedy. Winning at least one premiership in each of the last three decades. An amazing effort. My money is on him winning another flag this decade with GWS.

I doubt he will coach past next year. Pretty sure Williams is the coach anyway. Sheedy is not the best coach now but he certainly has the best record.


Old Mate
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223780Post Old Mate »

The coach should mostly be judged on list vs output ..... Probably why Lyon was so highly rated.

Anyway, look at Sir Alex Ferguson as an example....Of course being in charge of the biggest sporting club in the world helps but you cannot deny his ability to manage people/teams. Sheedy is like our version of him and age means little. Have you met Sheedy plugger? He's a remarkable person.


plugger66
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223783Post plugger66 »

Old Mate wrote:The coach should mostly be judged on list vs output ..... Probably why Lyon was so highly rated.

Anyway, look at Sir Alex Ferguson as an example....Of course being in charge of the biggest sporting club in the world helps but you cannot deny his ability to manage people/teams. Sheedy is like our version of him and age means little. Have you met Sheedy plugger? He's a remarkable person.

I have heard him speak a few times but never met him. Didnt understand a word he said but it was interesting. Was a great coach but now he is the sales person for GWS.


Old Mate
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223785Post Old Mate »

plugger66 wrote:
Old Mate wrote:The coach should mostly be judged on list vs output ..... Probably why Lyon was so highly rated.

Anyway, look at Sir Alex Ferguson as an example....Of course being in charge of the biggest sporting club in the world helps but you cannot deny his ability to manage people/teams. Sheedy is like our version of him and age means little. Have you met Sheedy plugger? He's a remarkable person.

I have heard him speak a few times but never met him. Didnt understand a word he said but it was interesting. Was a great coach but now he is the sales person for GWS.
Of course he's a sales person aren't all coaches? They don't only sell the clubs brand but also game plans to players and staff to motivate. I met him once in the mid 90's.


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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223789Post Johnny Member »

dragit wrote:
SainterK wrote: Inside 50's doesn't mean shots on goal though dragit, especially in those conditions.
It should mean shots on goal, what else are we trying to do once it's inside 50? We had 14 shots, mostly getable
Under Lyon, most F50's were either scrambled messy quick kicks in there to no one or nowhere in particular - or 'bomb it to Roo'. Flawed.


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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223792Post Scollop »

SainterK wrote: One thing you can't argue is that I am more loyal to the players, than the coach, reckon they are a pretty special bunch this era.

The fact is gameplan is fatiguing shouldn't be lost on anyone, that's just fact.
Two sentences that bring it all back into perspective...It's all about the players....The blueprint for success is building a team and getting the blokes to improve and grow together. The major credit for our success lies with the club people who came before Lyon and the players who stuck together and had a dream.

Rossco in this weeks after match derby presser starting talking about 'replacing' guys on the Dockers list...How many footballers are your going to turn into defensive role players? How many blokes can he possibly hope to change so that he gets players that can run and tackle and spread, the way 'he wants'....Tell me Rossco - why didn't you get rid of half the list at the Saints after 2007 and 2008 when your game plan fell short? How many players does Lyon think he can replace at the Dockers before they start to resemble the Saints team of 2009/2010??

I doubt Rossco will get a once in a lifetime opportunity to coach a team of champions again the way he walked into our club at the end of 2006. Maybe Sheeds/Choco and Bluey are 3-4 years away right now.


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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223839Post BigMart »

Hate to say it but,

Freo will come good, Ross can coach

All he needs to do is get rid of some rubbish, and reprogram some footy dumb players....

He will not win a premiership though IMO


SainterK
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223853Post SainterK »

BigMart wrote:Hate to say it but,

Freo will come good, Ross can coach

All he needs to do is get rid of some rubbish, and reprogram some footy dumb players....

He will not win a premiership though IMO
He got the job at St Kilda end of 2006, when Roo, Dal, Joey, Fisher etc etc where all about 25 years old.

McPharlin, Sandilands, and Pavlich are all closer to 30 already aren't they?

Not sure he can take a year or so to get it right this time.


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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223888Post saintly »

skeptic wrote:
SaintPav wrote: Did posters like Septic and others make these call at the time? I'd say no...At least SainterK has the guts to back certain players in.
One frustrating thing is that the answer was yes... didn't like the team selected at the time and I said so... can't prove it now and you just go on and on about calling me a hindsight specialist whilst forumites that have been here longer like Sainter K can at least remember that my criticism started growing a lot more mid 2010.



My issue in 09 was a simple one. As the game at TD in 09 showed Geelong were a strong finishing team which meant we needed run. Anything less than an 6-7 goal 3/4 time lead was going to go down to the wire.

The team we selected had both king and Gardiner who were average at best then... Dempster as a forward utility (not the close checking defender we have since come to love). 2 of 3 of them shd have made way for runners.

In the last 1/4 we fatigued, lost the ability to run and spread and could barely get our hands on the pill... which was compounded by the decision to take Ball off which was a MISTAKE the coaches acknowledged although in my opinon they did it deliberately

It never ceases to amaze me that some of you guys simply cannot fathom that RL made some poor decisions on the day and that it wasn't just the players missing goals... it's such a simplistic argument. If one of those goals had gone through obviously the game would have changed but we'd still have a team that would run out of steam

I remember you getting frustrated in 2010. and we could prove it, by going back and looking at old if we had to. i can't prove anything, as i didn't voice my frustrations. Most of ross's 5 years (except probably 2009) tenure you had two opposing sides re Ross.

Its just funny now that he is gone, we still have the same polarised views, and now Freo supporters are doing and showing the same views.


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skeptic
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223897Post skeptic »

thanks Saintly

does the history still go back that far?


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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223900Post Bernard Shakey »

The fact is we're better off without Ross. We've moved on and embraced Scott and the team looks like a breath of fresh air has arrived. They seem to be enjoying footy and the supporters are enjoying watching the Saints again. Life's good.


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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223906Post Richter »

Spinner wrote:Best coach in the AFL.
Er, no. By the end of last season he was in a position to become so, but was still behind....

- Malthouse, Thompson, Clarkson... IMO

The events of the last 6 months have seen him drop back in to the middle tier again...

With his stars in Pav and Sandilands ageing his future depends on him recruiting some quality replacements like Cloke and Goddard.
But I doubt any major star will go to Freo under him.

More likely that some of his younger crop will want to leave.


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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1223912Post bigred »

Spinner wrote:Best coach in the AFL.

Now he's not at St.Kilda.


"Now the ball is loose, it gives St. Kilda a rough chance. Black. Good handpass. Voss. Schwarze now, the defender, can run and from a long way".....
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skeptic
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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1224161Post skeptic »

plugger66 wrote:Tell me you are joking that a game in round 14 showed that the side we would play 10 weeks later was a strong finishing team. Does that make Sydney a strong finishing team so we better prepare for that?

Anyway seen that you have said that what you are saying is not hindsight you sould be able to show us many posts in 09 where you said similar comments and I dont mean after the GF. Can you show us a few?
I;ll give this a go... bearing in mind that my suspicions of RL's poor team selection were only just forming and I didn't reach frustration point until mid 2010... + obviously we were still winning.

Going into Sept... believing that Dempster and Eddy should be dropped
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55579&start=50

A week out from the finals, concerns about Kings form and a preference for McEvoy + belief that Gwilt should play medium forward ahead of Dempster
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55351

Going way back into august... an early call for an out of form Dempster to be dropped
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55220

Expressing Gardiner played well in the 1st week of the finals after a period of poor form
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56267

A post questioning the way RL used Dempster... though positive saying he would be well suited VS the pies... again acknowledging onging poor form
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55941&start=25

My thoughts on team selection leading into Sept = Out King, Eddy and Dempster
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55659

Another post leading into Sept questioning Dempster's spot in the side... querying his selection ahead of Geary, Ball, Max and Armitage
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=55655

On a little side not, pre g/f 09 saying that Kosi, Schnieder and Milne are the players that will make or break... dammit I'm good... wish I was wrong on that 1
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=56785


And here it is again in hindsight
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=58132


I think I make a pretty convincing case... called it b4 the game... with the benefit of hindsight, stood by it


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Re: Dear Ross Lyon

Post: # 1224165Post whiskers3614 »

Sorry I can't copy what I put up on Saints central about 2010 pre season.
Will try and paraphrase
1)St.Kilda would never win a flag with Lyon at the helm(negative game plan)
2)Ball/Lovett fiasco biggest blunder in recent times (we have plenty to choose from!)
3)I would actively barrack against Saints until Lyon was consigned to the AFL scrapheap.(I did soften on no 3 during 2010, but stand by my other comments fully)


Riewoldt and Goddard to live up to their reputations ,Clarke and Ray to defy theirs in 2012!
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