Chris Pelchen - The aftermath

[bergholt]

That is a hindsight comment. Hodge was known to be a likely star. Sam was not.

With Sam you are looking at what he became, rather than what he was back then.

Pick 36 in 2001. It was 2005 when he started to hit his straps.

We could well have a Sam now, and not know it. Dunstan could be very very good. Acres could be anything. Ross may be on slow burn...

And, I would reckon Sam Mitchell improved more than any other footballer I've seen. The amount of work he must have done would be incredible. He was always an extractor but seemed incredibly slow, one sided and couldn't kick over a jam tin.

Mitchell won the Rising Star in 2003, his second year. He beat guys like Ball, Goddard, Montagna, Sandilands, Wells, etc. I'm not sure he took that long to come through.

[saintsRrising]

That is a hindsight comment. Hodge was known to be a likely star. Sam was not.

With Sam you are looking at what he became, rather than what he was back then.

Pick 36 in 2001. It was 2005 when he started to hit his straps.

We could well have a Sam now, and not know it. Dunstan could be very very good. Acres could be anything. Ross may be on slow burn...

And, I would reckon Sam Mitchell improved more than any other footballer I've seen. The amount of work he must have done would be incredible. He was always an extractor but seemed incredibly slow, one sided and couldn't kick over a jam tin.

Look at the player he became. Unrecognisable.

Fully agree.

[Spinner]

I think it is bull* t too but here's a quote from a Collingwood supporter on big footy a few days ago along the same lines.
---------------------------------------
12Kilos bigfooty

hi saints fans take the following as`rumors, have a lot of saints mates in the know. Heard the reason Pelchen quit was due to the trade period he got undercut by Baines and Finnis in 2 trades he had completed . but the other 2 put a stop to it.

1. Cut a deal to give your pick 1 to gws for 4 possibly 6 not sure and Traloer. Which was stopped.
2. Armitage to tigers for pick 12 was stopped.

Again take it as rumors heard it from saints mate's who have been right in the past, did not hear either of the 2 trades anywhere else.
------------------------------------

Did not hear about the Armitage trade. Just passing on what I have been told.

If that rumour is true, then I'm feeling very confident re our (remaining) recruiting/list management people.


I would not have done either of those deals!

We can get a Treloer type (I note that Jerry still hasn't extended is contract with the Wogans) in the PSD in 2015, and then we'll have said player, and... Petracccc-aarrrrrh!!!

We have a plan. We are sticking to it. Patience is the key.

Dave I doubt the deal is true but I also doubt any if anyone would pass it up but if they did they should be sacked. Forget your crap about the PSD because it is crap. Maybe you are right though. Look at all the stars who will be taken this year. Your knowledge of footy is a little bit of a worry but luckily not for the Saints, Just more for people who may think you know what you are talking about. Surely there is none though.

Exactly right - I would have done both those trades in a heart beat. Trelor and 4/6 massive offer.

And P66 is right, no one passes up a deal now with the PSD a pipedream the next year. Doesn't happen and a year is a long time, the said player might stay or another club comes up with a better deal and offer so he asks for a trade.


I'm really bemused how you have this view though.

[Mr Magic]

I heard a Richmond official on SEN (about mid-week) discussing the possible trades they tried to do.
He claimed they approached St Kilda re Armitage early on and were told no, under no circumstances.
They then approached Melbourne re Trengrove for that same Pick #12.

There was no 'deal for Armitage' so therefore the story is just another 'crap rumour' designed to vilify someone.

[saintsRrising]

I think 2011 we actually did very well in the circumstances.

2008,9,10 on the other hand were utterly horrendous. This is why we are bottom right now. Look no further. If this list of battlers doesnt want to make you weep in your cornflakes nothing will. WARNING if you are depressed. Look away now. This will make things worse.

2008:

Rhys Stanley (Gone)

Farren Ray (Not long to go)

Robert Eddy (Gone)

Andrew McQualter (Gone)

Tom Lynch (Gone)

Nick Heyne (Gone)

Alistair Smith (Gone)

Paul Cahill (Gone)

Colm Begley (Gone)

2009:

Nick Winmar (Gone)

Jesse Smith (Gone)

Adam Pattison (Gone)

Will Johnson (Gone)

Zac Dawson (Gone)

Luke Miles (Gone)

Andrew Lovett (Gone)

Brett Peake (Gone)

2010:

Arryn Siposs (Going?)

Tom Simpkin (Going?)

Jamie Cripps (Gone)

Sam Crocker (Gone)

Tom Ledger (Gone)

Ryan Gamble (Gone)

Dean Polo (Gone)

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/afl/f ... 6980866631

Good point Con.

Though IMO the lost years started earlier

2007 we had pick 8 and took McEvoy, But after Ben were:
1 10 Adelaide Patrick Dangerfield Adelaide 131
1 11 Sydney Patrick Veszpremi 23
1 12 Hawthorn Cyril Rioli Hawthorn 133
1 13 West Coast Brad Ebert Port Adelaide 147

We did get Steven though at 42. Our only outperform that year.

2006. Armo was ok at 9 given who on average came after him. Howard was a howler at 27. Allen had a freak injury, otherwise could have been an outperform pick for us.

2005 we swapped our first pick for Watts from memory. Gilbert at 33 was an outperform. Others were duds.

2004 Was McQualter (others just after were about the same level), Ackland, McGough, Gwilt (out perfom) . So overall under perform again. Though at least two solid players were gained.

2003. Raph at 8 was probably ok, as not much after him in the next batch of picks. fisher at 55 was an outperform.

2002 initially looks good. But that is only because we had BJ at 1, and so in terms of picking that is only a pass. Ferguson at 22 was a fail as there were good players going in the twenties. Leigh Fisher was ok at 55. But given the picks we had the year was an under perform.

2001. We stuffed our first pick by trying to be too clever in guessing who WC and Freo would pick and thought we could get Ball and Judd. Instead we got Ball and X Clarke. We should ave had Judd and Clarke. So of the big three in Hodge, Judd and Ball we ended up with the worst of the three. Dal Santo was a BIG out perform at 13. McGuire was an outperform at 21. joey an outperform at 37. Houlihan a a miss at 49..but that is ok for 49. So overall this year was an outperform. Our last fora long long time!!!!!!!!!!

No the above does not factor in trades, but looking at our ability to nail picks it is dismal tale from 2002 through to 2010. That is 8 dismal years of drafting.

2011 we gain Ross, Markworth, Newnes, Webster, Lever, Maister, Blake (we had to delist Blake to juggle the books, as player payments and salary cap was a nightmare). so while nota brillant year it is an ok year given where the picks were taken. If Markworth eventually makes it the year would look better.

2002-2010 was the drafting legacy that Pelchen was hired to reverse.

[Con Gorozidis]

Terrific post SR. Very informative. Id forgotten about most of those. But we definitely under performed for 8 years. I think we had grossly under resourced and amateur recruiting team for that period. This was covered up by the fact we had 8-12 gun players.

Just on 2011.
Newnes, Ross, Webster all look like good players to me. So 2011 is already an over-perform for me. If Markworth makes it (looking unlikely) it will end up a great year.

[bergholt]

Terrific post SR. Very informative. Id forgotten about most of those. But we definitely under performed for 8 years. I think we had grossly under resourced and amateur recruiting team for that period. This was covered up by the fact we had 8-12 gun players.

How did we get those guns?

1987 zone: Harvey
1996 pick 15: Hudghton
1998 pick 11: Hayes
1999 rookie pick 23: Milne
2000 trade: Gehrig, Hamill
2000 pick 1: Riewoldt
2001 pick 2: Ball
2001 pick 13: Dal Santo
2001 pick 37: Montagna
2002 pick 1: Goddard
2003 pick 55: Fisher

That's a pretty solid 12. Only 3 of them were sub-10 draft picks. Presumably the recruiting team did pretty well to find Fisher or Montagna or Milne. What were we doing through those years?

[Con Gorozidis]

Terrific post SR. Very informative. Id forgotten about most of those. But we definitely under performed for 8 years. I think we had grossly under resourced and amateur recruiting team for that period. This was covered up by the fact we had 8-12 gun players.

How did we get those guns?

1987 zone: Harvey
1996 pick 15: Hudghton
1998 pick 11: Hayes
1999 rookie pick 23: Milne
2000 trade: Gehrig, Hamill
2000 pick 1: Riewoldt
2001 pick 2: Ball
2001 pick 13: Dal Santo
2001 pick 37: Montagna
2002 pick 1: Goddard
2003 pick 55: Fisher

That's a pretty solid 12. Only 3 of them were sub-10 draft picks. Presumably the recruiting team did pretty well to find Fisher or Montagna or Milne. What were we doing through those years?

Maybe it was resources or budget or maybe just fluke. Maybe other teams became more professional & better resourced in that period (04-10)- so the good players went to clubs with good recruiters - leaving less 'smokeys'.

I dont think Ball was a good choice either with a pick 2. G Train and Hammil were mature age recruits - not draftees who arrived because of M Blight. Dal, Joey and Fisher were clearly big wins for us as SR points out. Bizarre that Milney was unwanted after he dominated that VFL grand final for Essendon.

ANyways -obviously we have had plenty of good recruits over the decades. But for whatever reason 04-10 was horrendous.

[saintsRrising]

That's a pretty solid 12. Only 3 of them were sub-10 draft picks. Presumably the recruiting team did pretty well to find Fisher or Montagna or Milne. What were we doing through those years?

I do not think it is so much what we were doing in those years, but rather what we were not doing post these years as the AFL recruiting world moved on to make recruiting more of a science and devoted more time, staff and systems to the process.

We stayed in the era of under-resourced "gut-feel" recruiting. We stayed in the horse and buggy recruiting era, when everyone else had move on to motorised era.

Our recent relatively successful decade on field was underpinned by having a good core from the (97 GF, genuine star players like Hamill and Gehrig coming to the club when normally they would not, the benefit of additional early picks, plus the Blues being penalised for cheating). With that the occasional good pick like Fisher or Gilbert was enough to top us up when combined with some trading.

But the dismal drafting of kids kept eating away at our foundations.

[Dave McNamara]

Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Webster, White, pick 1 2014 WILL BE GUNS

What do you see in Webster that I don't? I mean, he's played some solid games - no blockbusters - but you're confident that he'll be a gun. Personally I just haven't seen it from him yet. What gives you that confidence?

Here's one example Bergs... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tyAkIYeRAI




And whilst everyone was applauding that little effort... pace and also controlled a difficult bounce whilst under pressure... they overlooked a bit of Jack Dud magic tight up on the boundary line.

[Con Gorozidis]

Billings, Dunstan, Acres, Webster, White, pick 1 2014 WILL BE GUNS

What do you see in Webster that I don't? I mean, he's played some solid games - no blockbusters - but you're confident that he'll be a gun. Personally I just haven't seen it from him yet. What gives you that confidence?

Here's one example Bergs... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6tyAkIYeRAI


And whilst everyone was applauding that little effort... pace and also controlled a difficult bounce whilst under pressure... they overlooked a bit of Jack Dud magic tight up on the boundary line.

I see a lot in Webster. I feel 80% confident hell be a gun.

[groupie1]

Interesting to see different folks' views on J Webster. We all view him differently, and it was great to read through what others think.

[gringo]

Terrific post SR. Very informative. Id forgotten about most of those. But we definitely under performed for 8 years. I think we had grossly under resourced and amateur recruiting team for that period. This was covered up by the fact we had 8-12 gun players.

How did we get those guns?

1987 zone: Harvey
1996 pick 15: Hudghton
1998 pick 11: Hayes
1999 rookie pick 23: Milne
2000 trade: Gehrig, Hamill
2000 pick 1: Riewoldt
2001 pick 2: Ball
2001 pick 13: Dal Santo
2001 pick 37: Montagna
2002 pick 1: Goddard
2003 pick 55: Fisher

That's a pretty solid 12. Only 3 of them were sub-10 draft picks. Presumably the recruiting team did pretty well to find Fisher or Montagna or Milne. What were we doing through those years?

Maybe it was resources or budget or maybe just fluke. Maybe other teams became more professional & better resourced in that period (04-10)- so the good players went to clubs with good recruiters - leaving less 'smokeys'.

I dont think Ball was a good choice either with a pick 2. G Train and Hammil were mature age recruits - not draftees who arrived because of M Blight. Dal, Joey and Fisher were clearly big wins for us as SR points out. Bizarre that Milney was unwanted after he dominated that VFL grand final for Essendon.

ANyways -obviously we have had plenty of good recruits over the decades. But for whatever reason 04-10 was horrendous.

Milney was seen as a miniature FF. He played a lead up kind of a role early on and was able to adapt his game as he went. Plenty would have wondered how he would go against AFL sized players in a different role. A bit like Bontempelli last year, people looked past his attributes and only wondered about the limitations of his size.

[Saints43]

Maybe it was resources...

I spoke to John Beveridge at a lunch around 2002/2003 (what year/s was Mick McGuane at the club?) and he was complaining that the club spent less than 2% of turnover on recruitment (when turnover was around $10M for memory). Made the point that winning games was the best income builder possible and that is was a false economy.

[SainterK]

Jimmy has the makings with ability, it's just a case of taking things seriously with him I reckon.

Already had a wake up call.

[stinger]

I heard a Richmond official on SEN (about mid-week) discussing the possible trades they tried to do.
He claimed they approached St Kilda re Armitage early on and were told no, under no circumstances.
They then approached Melbourne re Trengrove for that same Pick #12.

There was no 'deal for Armitage' so therefore the story is just another 'crap rumour' designed to vilify someone.

yes....

[saintbrat]

Meanwhile, Richardson has quashed suggestions former head of football Chris Pelchen was moved on due to a personality clash or because he held too much power at the Saints.

"Neither of those is true; in fact Chris and I had a fantastic working relationship and we still do,'' Richardson said.

"He was the first to text me with congratulations after the draft.

"I would think it's almost as simple as this: he is really strong and impressive with list building, but given that the club has Ameet Bains and Tony Elshaug who are so strong and experienced in list management, we became a bit top heavy in that area.

"There was an agreement that we needed bolstering in other areas, such as high performance.''

The Saints have since appointed ex-cricketer Jamie Cox as football manager and promoted assistant coach Danny Sexton to director of coaching and strategy.

http://www.afl.com.au/news/2015-01-01/b ... t-decision

[Junction Oval]

Sounds like good solid reasoning, Saintbrat, but it was the personality issue that decided who went and who stayed.

[Con Gorozidis]

So any progress on the high performance appointment? No use gettting rid of Pelch to get in a high performance person and then not following through with it.

We have Jamie Cox - who seems like a pretty decent appointment to me and then two other guys who seem like hacks - especially the Blues recruiter - but I guess its a bit of a demotion for him because ihs role at the Saints is under Elshaug so he might be ok in that role (who knows...).

[saintbrat]

To my thinking the High Performance and Head of Coaching positions were a little fluid till the found one or the other with the focus definitely being the football side and performance.
Jamie fills the High Performance role ensuring that off field football areas including any 'science' sport or otherwise and training is covered to the best available within out $$$$
And then Danny taking over the overseeng of Coaching - ensuring each area connects and communicates and also that no Coach including Alan is trying to do too much, sharing the work loads


Which were deficits in other clubs - Bomber couldn't let go early in career and forced change at the cats , sando and Vossy have both admitted to trying to 'be all'
And with Performance area -well Essendope says it all - did James know, did he have final say, did his sports science background give him enough info
Even back to the Saints in mid 2000's when injury cruelled many, leaving it to one side or other trainers or coaches voyld lead to long term complications for players


Clubs have come a long way

[jaxons]

I heard a Richmond official on SEN (about mid-week) discussing the possible trades they tried to do.
He claimed they approached St Kilda re Armitage early on and were told no, under no circumstances.
They then approached Melbourne re Trengrove for that same Pick #12.

There was no 'deal for Armitage' so therefore the story is just another 'crap rumour' designed to vilify someone.

I can officially assure you Mr.Magic that Richmond offered us pick 12 for Armitage.

[gringo]

I heard a Richmond official on SEN (about mid-week) discussing the possible trades they tried to do.
He claimed they approached St Kilda re Armitage early on and were told no, under no circumstances.
They then approached Melbourne re Trengrove for that same Pick #12.

There was no 'deal for Armitage' so therefore the story is just another 'crap rumour' designed to vilify someone.

I can officially assure you Mr.Magic that Richmond offered us pick 12 for Armitage.

Mr magic said that Richmond offered but we knocked it the head. Are you saying pelchen was going to do the deal? Did the saints board over ride him?

[falka]

I would have done that deal.
Imagine say Jake Lever at Full Back, Hugh Goddard CHB and McCartin FF.
Sure midfield would get savaged, but Armo aint Gary Ablett.
Anyway, just another swings and roundabouts moment number 5,482 in following AFL club.
Go Saints

[bergholt]

I would have done that deal.

Me too. I would have taken a mid, probably a Weller or Garlett, though I don't know much about Corey Ellis so he could have been good too. Still, as you say, swings and roundabouts. I'm also not too unhappy with the way it turned out.

[stinger]

I heard a Richmond official on SEN (about mid-week) discussing the possible trades they tried to do.
He claimed they approached St Kilda re Armitage early on and were told no, under no circumstances.
They then approached Melbourne re Trengrove for that same Pick #12.

There was no 'deal for Armitage' so therefore the story is just another 'crap rumour' designed to vilify someone.

I can officially assure you Mr.Magic that Richmond offered us pick 12 for Armitage.

"officially" ??????????...wtf.....you couldn't" officially" inform us if your arse was on fire...



what an insulting post...from the club's point of view....