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That's a great quarter, pity the game is played over four quarters. His total for the match was 22 possessions, 6 tackles and two goals. That means in the other three quarters he contributed 14 possies, 4 tackles and zero goals - not enough for one of our very highest paid! Let's not forget that this guy is on a rumoured $600k plus per year - at this stage I want my money back.
It's great that he turned on that quarter, and NEARLY won us the game, but had he shown the same level across the entire matchh, or even three quarters of it, we would almost certainly have won.
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That's a great quarter, pity the game is played over four quarters. His total for the match was 22 possessions, 6 tackles and two goals. That means in the other three quarters he contributed 14 possies, 4 tackles and zero goals - not enough for one of our very highest paid! Let's not forget that this guy is on a rumoured $600k plus per year - at this stage I want my money back.
It's great that he turned on that quarter, and NEARLY won us the game, but had he shown the same level across the entire matchh, or even three quarters of it, we would almost certainly have won.
It's just easier to blame the loss on him than the ordinary games of Hayes, Steven, Kosi, Simpkin, Jones, Cripps, Newnes, Milne
Completely agree with BM on gram
He is essential to the team
Without his run, pressure and goals in the last quarter we don't have a chance to win, he nearly changed the game
All saints scapegoats are the same, they make errors because they try and take on the game, and are not as bull at he gate hard.
We need more line breakers and outside run without these types we can't move the ball.
maverick wrote:Completely agree with BM on gram
He is essential to the team
Without his run, pressure and goals in the last quarter we don't have a chance to win, he nearly changed the game
All saints scapegoats are the same, they make errors because they try and take on the game, and are not as bull at he gate hard.
We need more line breakers and outside run without these types we can't move the ball.
Indeed.
Lyon almost won us two flags with his defensive game plan...but even he wanted line breakers like Lovett, Gram etc.
This is the secret to success at present and Watters has to continue to meld the team to accentuate our attack.
Flying the World in comfort thanks to FF Points....
I watched him closely, he got a telling off early in the second and improved from then.
Watch the replay.
I've watched it twice now and he cost us at least three goals early. That with Roo and Kosi's disgraceful kicking for goal cost us the game.
He was poor early, but three goals? Which three?
So he should of been told off for, along with Gwilt, Gilbert, Dal, Kosi, Cripper, Milney, Steven, Simpkin and Blakey
And as I said - the games played for 4 qtrs and we lost the game....good effort/good game or not.
Gran picks and chooses - has done on more than 1 occasion and many have seen it.
You've no idea whether "my mind is made up" but I do know what I see and have seen before. You can continue to make excuses, I truly hope we dont continue playing Gran at the expense of a younger player.
I watched him closely, he got a telling off early in the second and improved from then.
Watch the replay.
I've watched it twice now and he cost us at least three goals early. That with Roo and Kosi's disgraceful kicking for goal cost us the game.
Correct Bernard.
But your wasting your breath.......our "player apologists" will be at you telling you how poor Grans a scapegoat and therefore what you SAW on Friday night isnt what you REALLY saw it was just your biased playing tricks with your mind......
FFS - Gran was woeful for over half the game and decided hed have a go in the last - very noble, but we lost the game and truth be told had Richmond kicked straight early it couldve been ugly from the get go......
Nobody is elaborating on three goals he was respsonsible for though?
Isn't that hard if they were so blatantly him Teflon?
I know the one in particular right on the goal line, when he could of made more of an effort with body pressure to touch it. I mentioned it already, his first quarter was very poor, and that instance when he dropped his head is when I saw BJ indicate to him that he could of tried harder by purely raising a hand like a 'what was that'
He lifted from that moment, I watched closely....
In saying that, I find it hard to believe these particular three goals are entirely up to him anyways. The story of a goal starts well before the last line of defence...starts with either the first mistake of a turnover or missed clearance, a missed tackle, a lack of defensive pressure.
The whole 'Jason Gram cost us three goals' doesn't sit well with me.
Who cost us the other 15, anyone bothered to check?
I watched him closely, he got a telling off early in the second and improved from then.
Watch the replay.
I've watched it twice now and he cost us at least three goals early. That with Roo and Kosi's disgraceful kicking for goal cost us the game.
Correct Bernard.
But your wasting your breath.......our "player apologists" will be at you telling you how poor Grans a scapegoat and therefore what you SAW on Friday night isnt what you REALLY saw it was just your biased playing tricks with your mind......
FFS - Gran was woeful for over half the game and decided hed have a go in the last - very noble, but we lost the game and truth be told had Richmond kicked straight early it couldve been ugly from the get go......
We get it you don't like him and it makes you feel better to bag others.
Maybe you can tell me the three goals he directly cost and I will go check it out.
I guess he will get dropped if he was that bad, or is the coaching panel player apologists as well?
SainterK wrote:Nobody is elaborating on three goals he was respsonsible for though?
Isn't that hard if they were so blatantly him Teflon?
I know the one in particular right on the goal line, when he could of made more of an effort with body pressure to touch it. I mentioned it already, his first quarter was very poor, and that instance when he dropped his head is when I saw BJ indicate to him that he could of tried harder by purely raising a hand like a 'what was that'
He lifted from that moment, I watched closely....
In saying that, I find it hard to believe these particular three goals are entirely up to him anyways. The story of a goal starts well before the last line of defence...starts with either the first mistake of a turnover or missed clearance, a missed tackle, a lack of defensive pressure.
The whole 'Jason Gram cost us three goals' doesn't sit well with me.
Who cost us the other 15, anyone bothered to check?
But thats the whole point isnt it?
I mean how many times has Jason Gram's attack on the ball been questioned? How many times at a game does Jason Gram need to be reminded by another senior player that HE IS a senior player that ought not need to be told the games played for 4 qtrs??
Do you honestly believe that people question Grams attack on the ball and effort cause they "just dont like him" ????????
I mean seriously, Raph Clarke is putting his hand up and has done so now on several occasion, Leger has put his hand up - yet Gram gets multiple chances??
IF the guy is on the coin he reportedly on its a joke.
maverick wrote:
We get it you don't like him and it makes you feel better to bag others.
Maybe you can tell me the three goals he directly cost and I will go check it out.
I guess he will get dropped if he was that bad, or is the coaching panel player apologists as well?
You get squat.
Just more of the same moronic "dont question our players" dribble.
I get it that you reckon Gram played a stellar 4 qtr game.......do point out the highlights from qtrs 1 and 2??
By supporters, well probably plenty, but as we know it means little inside the clubs 4 walls...could rattle off heaps of players that have copped it on here and very rarely do coaches take a similar view.
By his teammates?
I believe he got dropped in I think 2009 for not recovering well enough once, however personally I have never seen it onfield before, which is why I noticed.
Multiple chances?
How do you mean?
He has been considered best 22 by all three coaches.
He has pretty much averaged the same stats since 2006 (in 2009 he upped his avg possies from 21 to 23 which is way overblown on here as some kind of level he has failed to reach again)
SainterK wrote:By supporters, well probably plenty, but as we know it means little inside the clubs 4 walls...could rattle off heaps of players that have copped it on here and very rarely do coaches take a similar view.
By his teammates?
I believe he got dropped in I think 2009 for not recovering well enough once, however personally I have never seen it onfield before, which is why I noticed.
Multiple chances?
How do you mean?
He has been considered best 22 by all three coaches.
He has pretty much averaged the same stats since 2006 (in 2009 he upped his avg possies from 21 to 23 which is way overblown on here as some kind of level he has failed to reach again)
If I truly have to answer "multiple chances" and explain what I mean after WE ALL acknowledge that Gram played LESS than half a game the other night and this has been seen by many fans (we must just all hate him you think??) then what a waste of time that is.
Seriously, Im not interested in stats, Im not talking stats Im talking EFFORT over 4 qtrs when its your time to go and not to pick and choose....hard to get stats for that - Blakes probably the best example though, doesnt choose just puts it all on the line every contest (regardless of his skill level).
Out of patience with Gram,saw nothing to change my mind on Friday,before his defenders start,I dont care if its Roo,NDS,Hayes etc ,if their not performing drop em
That was a ordinary performance by any imagination and has run out of credits with me
Starting to put Gilbert in same book,very thin ice
Fisher,Blake back into back half will/should see them both replaced on current form
bergsone wrote:Out of patience with Gram,saw nothing to change my mind on Friday,before his defenders start,I dont care if its Roo,NDS,Hayes etc ,if their not performing drop em
That was a ordinary performance by any imagination and has run out of credits with me
Starting to put Gilbert in same book,very thin ice
Fisher,Blake back into back half will/should see them both replaced on current form
I think Friday night was it for me too tbh Bergsone.
Was enormously frustrated watching those half baked efforts in the first half and started to think - we have to move fwd as a side to be a genuine challenger (which is why I guess Grams name was previously linked to trades).
I actually look at Gram/Gilbert and think...which one? and Id keep Gilbert because while both players disposal is suspect, Gilbert will use his body in the contest and consistently tackle and spoil more effectively. Gilbert can also run/carry and possibly go through the middle, winning his own ball - Gram doesnt win his own contested ball.
SainterK wrote:By supporters, well probably plenty, but as we know it means little inside the clubs 4 walls...could rattle off heaps of players that have copped it on here and very rarely do coaches take a similar view.
By his teammates?
I believe he got dropped in I think 2009 for not recovering well enough once, however personally I have never seen it onfield before, which is why I noticed.
Multiple chances?
How do you mean?
He has been considered best 22 by all three coaches.
He has pretty much averaged the same stats since 2006 (in 2009 he upped his avg possies from 21 to 23 which is way overblown on here as some kind of level he has failed to reach again)
If I truly have to answer "multiple chances" and explain what I mean after WE ALL acknowledge that Gram played LESS than half a game the other night and this has been seen by many fans (we must just all hate him you think??) then what a waste of time that is.Seriously, Im not interested in stats, Im not talking stats Im talking EFFORT over 4 qtrs when its your time to go and not to pick and choose....hard to get stats for that - Blakes probably the best example though, doesnt choose just puts it all on the line every contest (regardless of his skill level).
Who actually played a full 4 quarters? How many actually play a full 4 quarters every week in any game. ALL players go through lulls in games. Some manage to put together a full 4 quarters consistently, but who cares? I'm more interested in blokes who actually influence the outcome of games. Gram very nearly won us that game which to me, puts his performance EASILY in the best 5 saints players on the night. While he's capable of that, he will NEVER be dropped, regardless of all the pontificating on here.
I get frustrated with Gilbo as well. Who doesn't? But he did far more good than bad Friday night. He may have cost us at times, but I will keep saying it - how much good did he do as well. People just look at the negatives when we lose. I guarantee if we had won that game, that Gram would have been luaded a hero, and Gilbert treated as a bit of loveable rascal, who shouldn't push the boundaries so far in future. The result dictates our opinions rather than the facts.
Who actually played a full 4 quarters? How many actually play a full 4 quarters every week in any game. ALL players go through lulls in games. Some manage to put together a full 4 quarters consistently, but who cares? I'm more interested in blokes who actually influence the outcome of games. Gram very nearly won us that game which to me, puts his performance EASILY in the best 5 saints players on the night. While he's capable of that, he will NEVER be dropped, regardless of all the pontificating on here.
I get frustrated with Gilbo as well. Who doesn't? But he did far more good than bad Friday night. He may have cost us at times, but I will keep saying it - how much good did he do as well. People just look at the negatives when we lose. I guarantee if we had won that game, that Gram would have been luaded a hero, and Gilbert treated as a bit of loveable rascal, who shouldn't push the boundaries so far in future. The result dictates our opinions rather than the facts.
Lulls in games dont equate to 3 qtrs before springing to life for a couple of goals in the last.
Would I be lauding Gram had we won - forget it. I dont get blinded by opportunistic goals late in games - sealers or not. It's the guys that put their body on the line EVERYTIME its their turn I admire, the Blakes, Armitage, Hayes - Gram has on more than 1 occasion been questionable in this area and rightly so. This is EXACTLY the reason Id persist woth Gilbert,sure he had some brain fades BUT I cant question his endeavour in a contest every time. I can Grams and its not the first time and Im jack of seeing it tbh.
Hate to break your "results dictate our opinions" myth but thats a massive generalisation and we aint all wired that way..sometimes we just like and see different things in players.
SainterK wrote:By supporters, well probably plenty, but as we know it means little inside the clubs 4 walls...could rattle off heaps of players that have copped it on here and very rarely do coaches take a similar view.
By his teammates?
I believe he got dropped in I think 2009 for not recovering well enough once, however personally I have never seen it onfield before, which is why I noticed.
Multiple chances?
How do you mean?
He has been considered best 22 by all three coaches.
He has pretty much averaged the same stats since 2006 (in 2009 he upped his avg possies from 21 to 23 which is way overblown on here as some kind of level he has failed to reach again)
If I truly have to answer "multiple chances" and explain what I mean after WE ALL acknowledge that Gram played LESS than half a game the other night and this has been seen by many fans (we must just all hate him you think??) then what a waste of time that is.Seriously, Im not interested in stats, Im not talking stats Im talking EFFORT over 4 qtrs when its your time to go and not to pick and choose....hard to get stats for that - Blakes probably the best example though, doesnt choose just puts it all on the line every contest (regardless of his skill
Who actually played a full 4 quarters? How many actually play a full 4 quarters every week in any game. ALL players go through lulls in games. Some manage to put together a full 4 quarters consistently, but who cares? I'm more interested in blokes who actually influence the outcome of games. Gram very nearly won us that game which to me, puts his performance EASILY in the best 5 saints players on the night. While he's capable of that, he will NEVER be dropped, regardless of all the pontificating on here.
I get frustrated with Gilbo as well. Who doesn't? But he did far more good than bad Friday night. He may have cost us at times, but I will keep saying it - how much good did he do as well. People just look at the negatives when we lose. I guarantee if we had won that game, that Gram would have been luaded a hero, and Gilbert treated as a bit of loveable rascal, who shouldn't push the boundaries so far in future. The result dictates our opinions rather than the facts.
I for one would not have lauded his game if we had won,because he played shithouse simple.Must be easily pleased with a COUPLE of good efforts,that is nowhere remotely close to a top 5 performance.If he had played well ,I would have called it,but he didnt
I guess you'd have hated Wayne Carey. More often than not he would be well held for 3 and 1/2 quarters, and win the game in 15 min.
I hear what you are saying about Gram. But I reckon we have to accept that he has never been the sort of player that you want him to be. You may find that unacceptable, but I'm not sure he's playing too differently now than when he did a few years ago - his disposal was probably not as iffy, and created more run a few years ago though, so you probably just accepted it begrudgingly. He's certainly no TRevor Barker and never will be, but until we find a hard running, long kicking, fast tough HBF I reckon he will stay, especially if he kicks a couple of goals and gets 22 possessions (regardless of when he got the possessions)
Moods wrote:I guess you'd have hated Wayne Carey. More often than not he would be well held for 3 and 1/2 quarters, and win the game in 15 min.
I hear what you are saying about Gram. But I reckon we have to accept that he has never been the sort of player that you want him to be. You may find that unacceptable, but I'm not sure he's playing too differently now than when he did a few years ago - his disposal was probably not as iffy, and created more run a few years ago though, so you probably just accepted it begrudgingly. He's certainly no TRevor Barker and never will be, but until we find a hard running, long kicking, fast tough HBF I reckon he will stay, especially if he kicks a couple of goals and gets 22 possessions (regardless of when he got the possessions)
Your right on one score - I accepted Gram's at times "relaxed" attacks on the contest for his run/carry cause as a side we needed that badly. No longer.
Whats changed? for me its no longer about the now, Id love to be wrong but I dont think we win the flag this year so its about the future. Its about the side saying...can we continue to carry 2 suspect kicks down back like Gram/Gilbert? if not, how do we improve the skill level of that back 6? who goes and who replaces them? For me, Gilbert stays cause he attacks the contest with greater effort more often.
For the future Id actually like to see a Milera delivering the ball with speed off a HBF, he's 1 cm shorter than Gram and 25 next year with better foot skills/speed and Id hate to see him pushed out of the side up fwd when Schneider comes in alongside Milne, Saad...I also think Milera could deliver the ball very well into fwd 50 and help speed up our transition from defence.
Wayne Carey - I'll leave out on a thread about Gram out of respect.
Moods wrote:I guess you'd have hated Wayne Carey. More often than not he would be well held for 3 and 1/2 quarters, and win the game in 15 min.
I hear what you are saying about Gram. But I reckon we have to accept that he has never been the sort of player that you want him to be. You may find that unacceptable, but I'm not sure he's playing too differently now than when he did a few years ago - his disposal was probably not as iffy, and created more run a few years ago though, so you probably just accepted it begrudgingly. He's certainly no TRevor Barker and never will be, but until we find a hard running, long kicking, fast tough HBF I reckon he will stay, especially if he kicks a couple of goals and gets 22 possessions (regardless of when he got the possessions)
Dont thing I ever said I hated Gram or any saints player.My opinion is if not playing well drop em,I didnt have him in my 22 before Rich game because IMO form didnt warrant it
Bit harsh on Carey,playing on oppositions BEST defender,often doubled teamed,often ruckmen dropping back on him.Cant see to many teams putting that much work into Gram
SainterK wrote:By supporters, well probably plenty, but as we know it means little inside the clubs 4 walls...could rattle off heaps of players that have copped it on here and very rarely do coaches take a similar view.
By his teammates?
I believe he got dropped in I think 2009 for not recovering well enough once, however personally I have never seen it onfield before, which is why I noticed.
Multiple chances?
How do you mean?
He has been considered best 22 by all three coaches.
He has pretty much averaged the same stats since 2006 (in 2009 he upped his avg possies from 21 to 23 which is way overblown on here as some kind of level he has failed to reach again)
If I truly have to answer "multiple chances" and explain what I mean after WE ALL acknowledge that Gram played LESS than half a game the other night and this has been seen by many fans (we must just all hate him you think??) then what a waste of time that is.
Seriously, Im not interested in stats, Im not talking stats Im talking EFFORT over 4 qtrs when its your time to go and not to pick and choose....hard to get stats for that - Blakes probably the best example though, doesnt choose just puts it all on the line every contest (regardless of his skill level).
Is your lunatic rantings speaking for all of us now.
Have your own opinion but leave others that see more than you're one sided bagging of a proven player who has put his body on the line many times before and during last Friday night's game to form their own.
We all need to have our scapegoats to make ourselves feel better.
If you can find the three direct goals come back to me.
