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Moods wrote:I guess you'd have hated Wayne Carey. More often than not he would be well held for 3 and 1/2 quarters, and win the game in 15 min.
I hear what you are saying about Gram. But I reckon we have to accept that he has never been the sort of player that you want him to be. You may find that unacceptable, but I'm not sure he's playing too differently now than when he did a few years ago - his disposal was probably not as iffy, and created more run a few years ago though, so you probably just accepted it begrudgingly. He's certainly no TRevor Barker and never will be, but until we find a hard running, long kicking, fast tough HBF I reckon he will stay, especially if he kicks a couple of goals and gets 22 possessions (regardless of when he got the possessions)
Dont thing I ever said I hated Gram or any saints player.My opinion is if not playing well drop em,I didnt have him in my 22 before Rich game because IMO form didnt warrant it
Bit harsh on Carey,playing on oppositions BEST defender,often doubled teamed,often ruckmen dropping back on him.Cant see to many teams putting that much work into Gram
Didn't mean to imply that you hated Gram.
Not harsh on Carey at all - I rate him as the best player I've ever seen. The reason - cos he influenced the result of games more than any other player that I've watched. Now, obviously, I'm not putting Gram in Wayne Carey's status, merely making the point that an ability to influence a game comes in many forms. Harves would do it by constant gut running, breaking lines and creative handpassing and usually precise passing. Grammy's not in his rarefied atmosphere either, but he can influence a game. He did it Friday night. You don't drop a bloke on the back of that. You show him the video and explain where he needs to get better, and you praise that last quarter. When he stops affecting games but continues to do the poor things you and Teflon have pointed out, then I will agree with you.
maverick wrote:
Is your lunatic rantings speaking for all of us now.
Have your own opinion but leave others that see more than you're one sided bagging of a proven player who has put his body on the line many times before and during last Friday night's game to form their own.
We all need to have our scapegoats to make ourselves feel better.
If you can find the three direct goals come back to me.
Why would my opinion be full of "scapegoats" and just "bagging proven players" yet yours is somehow valid? its clear you idolise players and cant see fault.
Gram has been questioned many times by MANY supporters over his attack on the ball - yet theyre all wrong and your right?
I dont need to find 3 direct goals to know Gram did nothing in over half a game of footy Friday night - why dont you come back and show me all the great things he did early in the game and come back to me - cause you obviously accept 10 minute cameo performances.
I dont need scapegoats to make myself feel better - I have dumb posts from you for that...laugh a minute your dribble.
I still thought he played ok for most of the game and then took it to a new level to almost be a game breaker. Most seem to question the fact that he doesn't warrant his high salary, that's nothing to do with how he performs that was poor contracting on our part. Most Aussies don't think we should ask for additional tax from people like Gina Rienhardt who earns $2 million bucks every hour digging our natural resources up yet Gram won't get let up on unless he plays like Ablett or gives back his pay packet.
Moods wrote:When he stops affecting games but continues to do the poor things you and Teflon have pointed out, then I will agree with you.
So as long as Gram puts in a good last qtr he's ok?
Cause he did squat for majority of the game and some of his efforts early were ordinary.
I can handle quiet games - i cant handle when a player like Gram (and hes done it before) picks and chooses his effort in a contest and 1 qtr of effort (regardless of influence) shouldnt be accepted from a senior player.
gringo wrote:I still thought he played ok for most of the game and then took it to a new level to almost be a game breaker. Most seem to question the fact that he doesn't warrant his high salary, that's nothing to do with how he performs that was poor contracting on our part. Most Aussies don't think we should ask for additional tax from people like Gina Rienhardt who earns $2 million bucks every hour digging our natural resources up yet Gram won't get let up on unless he plays like Ablett or gives back his pay packet.
His first half efforts were ordinary - as Sainter K has alluded to he needed to be told by Goddard he had to lift..
4 good quarters would shut us all up,take your point about encouragment for last quarter efforts,but we need 4 of them not one, a player of his experience should be producing that by now.
gringo wrote:I still thought he played ok for most of the game and then took it to a new level to almost be a game breaker. Most seem to question the fact that he doesn't warrant his high salary, that's nothing to do with how he performs that was poor contracting on our part. Most Aussies don't think we should ask for additional tax from people like Gina Rienhardt who earns $2 million bucks every hour digging our natural resources up yet Gram won't get let up on unless he plays like Ablett or gives back his pay packet.
His first half efforts were ordinary - as Sainter K has alluded to he needed to be told by Goddard he had to lift..
It's a shame he didn't tell 13 others to lift. Milney might have aimed straighter if he'd been yelled at.
knowing what Gram is capable of... he just seems like he isn't working hard enough and is selective RE when tyo put in.
We all remember his 09 GF game... following it, he never really got his match fitness right at all throughout 2010... always seemed underdone (then of course he was dropped somewhere for skipping rehab).
2011 he was again seemingly unfit for much of it despite playing some ok footy in the last half of the season.
He's frustrating because he's been ok so far this season then all of a sudden in the last 1/4 VS Rich he pulls out this blinder of a performance out of nowhere... like all of a sudden he got a blast and thought bugger I better lift.
Given his age, IMO the desperation part of his game has to be there to justify selection... facing facts, like so many he's not part of the future so his continued selection depends on his performance being good enough to justifiy taking a spot away from say Ledger. For someone like Hayes or Roo that's not a prob... for Jason?
If you remember we took him into the 2010 GF1 with a pretty severe injury that seemed like a groin. He was so full of juice it looked like his leg was held on with sticky tape. He had restrictions from that injury all last year and has finally started to look like the injury is behind him and he trusts his body again. I believe that is where his poor disposal and inaccuracy with the big kicks went. If he was injured as I believe it might just be worth giving him some slack. he did some good stuff early on including some twisting and turning which looked like a guy getting confidence back.
maverick wrote:
Is your lunatic rantings speaking for all of us now.
Have your own opinion but leave others that see more than you're one sided bagging of a proven player who has put his body on the line many times before and during last Friday night's game to form their own.
We all need to have our scapegoats to make ourselves feel better.
If you can find the three direct goals come back to me.
Why would my opinion be full of "scapegoats" and just "bagging proven players" yet yours is somehow valid? its clear you idolise players and cant see fault.
Gram has been questioned many times by MANY supporters over his attack on the ball - yet theyre all wrong and your right?
I dont need to find 3 direct goals to know Gram did nothing in over half a game of footy Friday night - why dont you come back and show me all the great things he did early in the game and come back to me - cause you obviously accept 10 minute cameo performances.
I dont need scapegoats to make myself feel better - I have dumb posts from you for that...laugh a minute your dribble.
And many on here defend him too...but keep the sooky stuff coming.
You can't find the three goals because they aren't there.
Gram played poorly for about a quarter and a half, in a position he doesn't want to play, for another quarter he was OK and another quarter he was probably close to our best.
Doesn't seem to be too many supporters following you presently, maybe they are all in bed getting ready for school.......
bergsone wrote:4 good quarters would shut us all up,take your point about encouragment for last quarter efforts,but we need 4 of them not one, a player of his experience should be producing that by now.
Milney doesn't, Kosi doesn't, just to name two.
Not all players are capable of it, irrespective of experience.
gringo wrote:If you remember we took him into the 2010 GF1 with a pretty severe injury that seemed like a groin. He was so full of juice it looked like his leg was held on with sticky tape. He had restrictions from that injury all last year and has finally started to look like the injury is behind him and he trusts his body again. I believe that is where his poor disposal and inaccuracy with the big kicks went. If he was injured as I believe it might just be worth giving him some slack. he did some good stuff early on including some twisting and turning which looked like a guy getting confidence back.
I wonder why they would play him if he was really that bad...
maverick wrote:
Is your lunatic rantings speaking for all of us now.
Have your own opinion but leave others that see more than you're one sided bagging of a proven player who has put his body on the line many times before and during last Friday night's game to form their own.
We all need to have our scapegoats to make ourselves feel better.
If you can find the three direct goals come back to me.
Why would my opinion be full of "scapegoats" and just "bagging proven players" yet yours is somehow valid? its clear you idolise players and cant see fault.
Gram has been questioned many times by MANY supporters over his attack on the ball - yet theyre all wrong and your right?
I dont need to find 3 direct goals to know Gram did nothing in over half a game of footy Friday night - why dont you come back and show me all the great things he did early in the game and come back to me - cause you obviously accept 10 minute cameo performances.
I dont need scapegoats to make myself feel better - I have dumb posts from you for that...laugh a minute your dribble.
And many on here defend him too...but keep the sooky stuff coming.
You can't find the three goals because they aren't there.
Gram played poorly for about a quarter and a half, in a position he doesn't want to play, for another quarter he was OK and another quarter he was probably close to our best.
Doesn't seem to be too many supporters following you presently, maybe they are all in bed getting ready for school.......
At least we went to school...
I'd say there are quite a few expressing similar views on Grans choosing when to go or not.... but that doesn't suit your pathetic idolisation of players or apologist approach does it?
Gram did stuff all for over half a game and was deplorable in qtr 1 - not bad ...deplorable
Spare us all your player drooling for 5 minutes will you ?
gringo wrote:If you remember we took him into the 2010 GF1 with a pretty severe injury that seemed like a groin. He was so full of juice it looked like his leg was held on with sticky tape. He had restrictions from that injury all last year and has finally started to look like the injury is behind him and he trusts his body again. I believe that is where his poor disposal and inaccuracy with the big kicks went. If he was injured as I believe it might just be worth giving him some slack. he did some good stuff early on including some twisting and turning which looked like a guy getting confidence back.
Perhaps it's Bird Flu affecting his kicking??
Now he's had his legs 'sticky taped on'.... I've heard it all... The mans a warrior what were we thinking??
bergsone wrote:4 good quarters would shut us all up,take your point about encouragment for last quarter efforts,but we need 4 of them not one, a player of his experience should be producing that by now.
Milney doesn't, Kosi doesn't, just to name two.
Not all players are capable of it, irrespective of experience.
Milne and Kosi even have at least produced since a good game in 2009 GF... or don't the count? Cause Grans done squat since then... but you're happy with good qtr here or there is that it? No wonder we have 1 flag in 100 yrs. FFS
Given his last quarter highlights are up on the Saints website, not exactly convinced by you nay sayers that he'll be dropped this week.
In fact, I reckon Scott would of looked him in the eyes and said 'now that's level you need to sustain next week'
Please also note as he is taking his first kick for goal after three 'ordinary' quarters of hardly touching it and choosing when to go, the coverage shows he already has 8 kicks, 8 handballs, 5 marks....
SainterK wrote:Given his last quarter highlights are up on the Saints website, not exactly convinced by you nay sayers that he'll be dropped this week.
In fact, I reckon Scott would of looked him in the eyes and said 'now that's level you need to sustain next week'
Please also note as he is taking his first kick for goal after three 'ordinary' quarters of hardly touching it and choosing when to go, the coverage shows he already has 8 kicks, 8 handballs, 5 marks....
SainterK wrote:Given his last quarter highlights are up on the Saints website, not exactly convinced by you nay sayers that he'll be dropped this week.
In fact, I reckon Scott would of looked him in the eyes and said 'now that's level you need to sustain next week'
Please also note as he is taking his first kick for goal after three 'ordinary' quarters of hardly touching it and choosing when to go, the coverage shows he already has 8 kicks, 8 handballs, 5 marks....
Get off Gram's back, he's doing Ok. Why not go through each player and pick their strengths and weaknesses, every player on the list has them. If we had a team of perfect players, we would have quite a few premierships under our belt by now.
Perhaps instead you should look at the players who had our defensive players in unenviable positions.
Who was on that blonde guy (Morris?) because he was running past without an opponent everytime Richmond got the ball - putting our defence under extreme pressure as numbers ran at them.
From what some put on here, Gram got his 22 possessions in just one quarter.
Makes Ablett's 50 odd possesions seem rather ordinary because if Gram had of maintained that productivity he would have had 88 possessions for the game!
He goes low and hard when he is the one to go - as we saw v. Richmond in the centre of the ground when he crunched in low and won the contest.
And his 50 metre pass to Riewoldt was superb.
Perhaps certain of you should turn your attention to those who were found out - starting with Gwilt who is returning from a knee reco and doing it tough, Cripps who had trouble imposing but kept at it, Blake who was outclassed comprehensively and Milne who was the biggest liability particularly in an abysmal first quarter and let the blonde haired Richmond defender run free from then on.
bergsone wrote:4 good quarters would shut us all up,take your point about encouragment for last quarter efforts,but we need 4 of them not one, a player of his experience should be producing that by now.
Milney doesn't, Kosi doesn't, just to name two.
Not all players are capable of it, irrespective of experience.
Milne and Kosi even have at least produced since a good game in 2009 GF... or don't the count? Cause Grans done squat since then... but you're happy with good qtr here or there is that it? No wonder we have 1 flag in 100 yrs. FFS
My thought exactly. Teflon is brutally honest and good on him. It astounds me how others here talk up Gram's 25 posessions when the first 20 were mainly ineffective. It's laughable to justify a player's performance by number of posessions. Stats can be so misleading. 5 quality damaging posessions to me are heaps more value to a team's performance than 20 bull*#it ones ffs!
To challenge for a flag a team needs it's fair share of hard, tough ball players and we don't have enough. No wonder Richmond put all their efforts on Lenny on Friday night in centre clearances. Armo is the only other one willing to play that role but hasn't got the tank of a top line midfielder. Jack is developing and will be a very good player for us but hasn't got the body strength yet to keep performing consistently.
I get abused for picking on Montagna as well but his efforts speak for themselves. He was in fine media form again on the weekend praising Cotchin's performance and saying that he will be the best midfielder in the comp within 2 years and good luck to him if he does. He certainly plays with heaps of passion and probably works just as hard off the field. Montagna could well spend more time focusing on his own game and taking his game to another level rather than giving accolades to others but some players are happy to stay within their comfort zone and he is one of these. His last couple of years have been average at best. Overrated for a while now and seems to have more passion for getting his noggin in front of a TV camera but of course, there are posters here that think Montagna will be a key player in getting us deep into the finals one more time lol.
