Spencer White

[St Ick]

Sorry I thought we got Rooy because of finishing bottom. Also Ball, Dal BJ and others because we were down the bottom. Our past top 10 pick was probably Armo. And as much as he is improving he isnt replacing Lenny.

We didn't get Dal as a result of our finishing position.

Also McEvoy was our last top 10 I think.

[gringo]

Sorry I thought we got Rooy because of finishing bottom. Also Ball, Dal BJ and others because we were down the bottom. Our past top 10 pick was probably Armo. And as much as he is improving he isnt replacing Lenny.

We didn't get Dal as a result of our finishing position.

Also McEvoy was our last top 10 I think.

That's besides the point. We should finish last for a few years because the only way to get good players is to fail. Failure is guaranteed to get good players into the club.

[plugger66]

Sorry I thought we got Rooy because of finishing bottom. Also Ball, Dal BJ and others because we were down the bottom. Our past top 10 pick was probably Armo. And as much as he is improving he isnt replacing Lenny.

We didn't get Dal as a result of our finishing position.

Also McEvoy was our last top 10 I think.

That's besides the point. We should finish last for a few years because the only way to get good players is to fail. Failure is guaranteed to get good players into the club.

No idea why you would think that way. And you call yourself a Saints supporter. Pathetic way of thinking.

[bobmurray]

Sorry I thought we got Rooy because of finishing bottom. Also Ball, Dal BJ and others because we were down the bottom. Our past top 10 pick was probably Armo. And as much as he is improving he isnt replacing Lenny.

We didn't get Dal as a result of our finishing position.

Also McEvoy was our last top 10 I think.

That's besides the point. We should finish last for a few years because the only way to get good players is to fail. Failure is guaranteed to get good players into the club.

No it's not...

Ask Melbourne...they'll tell you your theory is crap...in fact...they'll show you..

[St Ick]

On that, watch Gysberts, Petterd and Morton thrive in a new environment!

[gringo]

I'm joking just responding to pluggers assertion. I totally believe you can recruit creatively and I back the path we are on.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Interesting to note that not only did Sydney only have one in their premiership team who was darfted in the top 10 of a national draft, but according to an article in today's HS they only have I think it was 4 on their whole list who were taken in the top 20 of a national draft.

[plugger66]

I'm joking just responding to pluggers assertion. I totally believe you can recruit creatively and I back the path we are on.

But I never said that. Please comment on what I said and not what you think I said so again what you have written is a lie. The way you are going you will have more lies than players the saints were likely to trade or draft for this year.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

People thinking Hickey, Lee and TDL are going to be good players in their first year are in fantasy land.

Didn't you say the exact same sort of thing this time last year when the likes of me were saying that we expected Saad to be in our best 22 this year and that he could play a significant role pretty much from the moment he got a game?

I'm pretty sure you did and yet Saad became easily best 22 within just a few weeks of his first game and was basically good for two goals a game in his first AFL season, despite hurting his knee mid way through it. Not only Saad, but also Milera played a reasonably significant role (especially in Schneider's absence) from game one and between them they averaged over 3 goals a game. A hell of an effort considering they were playing 2nd or 3rd fiddle to Milne. Even Wilkes, despite having very little continuity of footy (due to all the byes in the VFL early in the season, being subbed off in multiple games that he did play in the seniors, being dropped after just one game on at least one occasion and playing most of one game down back) averaged 1.5 goals a game and by the end of the season had effectively pushed Kosi out of the side. They showed just how possible it is.

Yet here you are just 12 months later saying this about Lee and co. despite the fact you probably haven't ever seen any of them play a game (at least not that you'd likely remember).

Saad came in (in just his 4th full season of Aussie Rules footy in his life) and averaged 1.75 goals per game (despite being subbed on in his first game and subbed off, after getting KOed, in another), after kicking 50 goals from 20 games in the VFL, the previous year, while Lee, for instance, is coming in off a 60 goal in 14 games forward season in the WAFL (including a 5 or 6 goal haul in a final, plus another 10 in the Foxtel Cup, including 6 in that GF, against a very strong Werribee outfit), at 21 years old and yet you say that anyone that thinks he could be good next year is in "fantasy land", despite the fact that he ought to be cherry ripe to come straight in and make a solid impact, especially with another AFL preseason under his belt and being that 22 years old and physically mature to play immediately?

Are you serious, or just trolling, or what?

If you are serious, I guess the club are in "fantasy land" then, because I've been told they very much believe that Lee will be "good" next year. Do you really think we gave up a pick as high as 12 for someone who is very much ready to go (after a year on an AFL list already, two full seasons of senior footy at WAFL level and another couple at senior, or reserves state league (WAFL or SANFL) level), who dominated this year, if they weren't likely to be ready to make a strong impact pretty much straight away? Giving up a pick as high as 12, in a draft with a strong top 20, is a big deal, even if we got a couple of later picks thrown in with him, so we had to well and truly rate him, which we do.

I mean think about it, if he'd been on an AFL list this year and had been playing like he was in the WAFL or Foxtel Cup, at 194/195cm and with his speed, mobility, athleticism and finishing skills and at 21yo, do you really think he wouldn't have been likely to have played lots of senior AFL footy this year? Think Tommy Walsh (albeit not as solidly built, but quicker, more athletic, more mobile, far better at ground level and with a much better understanding of the game), but kicking bags of goals pretty much every week and at 21yo. How many AFL teams can you think of that wouldn't have wanted to get someone like that into their team ASAP this year, if he had been on their list, especially considering he can be very effective either forward, or back? And that was this year. Next year he'll hopefully be even more ready to go, after another AFL preseason and will be mighty keen to make up for lost time, I expect, after getting cut from Adelaide after one year, when he was 19.

And that's just Lee. I'm not expecting much from TDL, as I just don't see an opening in the side for him, but he reportedly finished off the season terrifically well in the ressies in Sydney and was named emergency for Sydney in the GF and in the 19 senior AFL games he's played, he has kicked 30 goals, including 18 from 8 games in 2010, with a 4 goal haul in a final against Carlton in there, when he helped them win that game with a great last quarter. So with all that being the case and him being at that mature age of 24 next season and playing under Watters again, (who coached him when he had his really good season for Subi), I don't see why it would be "fantasy" for him to be able to have a good year next year, either, if a spot arose for him. That wouldn't be out of the question at all.

As for Hickey, he is probably the least likely of the three to make a strong impact next season, as it will apparently only be the 5th season of footy that he's played in his life, he still needs to fill out a bit more and has a lot to learn still, but he did play about half of this season in the seniors and will have gotten a lot out of that I expect. So with another preseason under his belt and being that year older (22 next year) stranger things have happened than if he were to have a good one for us next year. Anyone who saw his 24 hitout, 19 possession and 8 contested marks game against Collingwood on the MCG this year knows that he has the tools to be very good (his 8 contested marks in that game was reportedly the highest number anyone took in the AFL all year) and it's not out of the question that he could show them a lot more next year, if a spot was there for him.

[plugger66]

What is good? Saad had a very good year for a first year player but if it was his 7th year I reckon he would be rated outside our top10 so he is in the bottom half of our regular list. My point is i doubt Lee or Hickey will get inside our top 10 this year and IMO if you're not inside the top 10 you arent improving the side enough for the side to actually get up the ladder.

It seems we have a different idea on what is a good player that will improve the team. I actually expect Lee may play 10-15 games next year but I still say I doubt he will improve the side. I reckon at best he will be Kosi's standard this year which would be fantastic for a first year player but that will not improve the team. Hickey is a ruckman who may play 5 to 10 games but wont improve the side next year. TDL is a GOP IMO and he will be in and out of the side.

By the way I like the way you picked Saad out. Is he the only player you mentioned? I doubt it very much but others you mentioned probably back up my point.

Love your confidence but that doesnt mean I have to agree with it. Without any games it is hard to guess where we will finish but looking at lasts years form and what we have gained and lost i have us between 9th and 12th. Last year I had us between 7th and 10th so People may think I am negative but I call it realistic. Where do you see us finishing next season?

[White Winmar]

Despite what a lot of people on here think, Goddard leaving is going to leave a hole that will be hard to fill. Gram to a lesser extent. I agree with the logic of replacements needing to do more than their predecessors, in order for the team to improve in an overall sense. On the upside, Lee, Hickey, Roberton and TDL, are reasonably advanced in their ongoing development and are capable of improving the overall depth and evenness of the side. I think that's exactly why they were recruited, in that they have more to offer, more immediately, than promising youngsters.

FWIW I reckon we could finish 6th if all goes well, down to 12th if things go awry. I feel much more bullish about the immediate future than I did at the end of 2011, though. At that point I thought we were heading towards a significant dry spell. The list has improved greatly through the last two drafts, IMHO.

[suss]

What is good? Saad had a very good year for a first year player but if it was his 7th year I reckon he would be rated outside our top10 so he is in the bottom half of our regular list. My point is i doubt Lee or Hickey will get inside our top 10 this year and IMO if you're not inside the top 10 you arent improving the side enough for the side to actually get up the ladder.

It seems we have a different idea on what is a good player that will improve the team. I actually expect Lee may play 10-15 games next year but I still say I doubt he will improve the side. I reckon at best he will be Kosi's standard this year which would be fantastic for a first year player but that will not improve the team. Hickey is a ruckman who may play 5 to 10 games but wont improve the side next year. TDL is a GOP IMO and he will be in and out of the side.

By the way I like the way you picked Saad out. Is he the only player you mentioned? I doubt it very much but others you mentioned probably back up my point.

Love your confidence but that doesnt mean I have to agree with it. Without any games it is hard to guess where we will finish but looking at lasts years form and what we have gained and lost i have us between 9th and 12th. Last year I had us between 7th and 10th so People may think I am negative but I call it realistic. Where do you see us finishing next season?

First of all you said 'People thinking Hickey, Lee and TDL are going to be good players in their first year are in fantasy land.' Now you're saying 'good' means in the top 10 and 'improving the team'.

Sounds like you're qualifying a silly statement to avoid embarrassment - again.

[Dave McNamara]

First of all you said 'People thinking Hickey, Lee and TDL are going to be good players in their first year are in fantasy land.' Now you're saying 'good' means in the top 10 and 'improving the team'.

Sounds like you're qualifying... - again.

Hi Suss, I noticed that also. I also noticed that Pluggs has brought back his ghost writer... which is always a good thing.

Now this is in no way a comment on what has gone on earlier in this thread, however I've really enjoyed reading the last few posts. Comments/opinions have been expressed, other fellow posters have taken these to task, back and forth it goes... we've been getting some (at least IMHO) interesting, detailed and well-written viewpoints in this discussion. For mine, that's how it should always be done.

So carry on guys... and it seems the ball is back in your court Pluggs...

[plugger66]

What is good? Saad had a very good year for a first year player but if it was his 7th year I reckon he would be rated outside our top10 so he is in the bottom half of our regular list. My point is i doubt Lee or Hickey will get inside our top 10 this year and IMO if you're not inside the top 10 you arent improving the side enough for the side to actually get up the ladder.

It seems we have a different idea on what is a good player that will improve the team. I actually expect Lee may play 10-15 games next year but I still say I doubt he will improve the side. I reckon at best he will be Kosi's standard this year which would be fantastic for a first year player but that will not improve the team. Hickey is a ruckman who may play 5 to 10 games but wont improve the side next year. TDL is a GOP IMO and he will be in and out of the side.

By the way I like the way you picked Saad out. Is he the only player you mentioned? I doubt it very much but others you mentioned probably back up my point.

Love your confidence but that doesnt mean I have to agree with it. Without any games it is hard to guess where we will finish but looking at lasts years form and what we have gained and lost i have us between 9th and 12th. Last year I had us between 7th and 10th so People may think I am negative but I call it realistic. Where do you see us finishing next season?

First of all you said 'People thinking Hickey, Lee and TDL are going to be good players in their first year are in fantasy land.' Now you're saying 'good' means in the top 10 and 'improving the team'.

Sounds like you're qualifying a silly statement to avoid embarrassment - again.

Are you serious. You honestly think I worry what people like you think. I only worry about what my family and friends think.

I was explaining to the other person what I called a good player. Surely you get it. If you dont I will get my 3 year old neice to explain it to you.

Just to get some idea of your footy knowledge tell me who you thought had good years for our club this year?

[bigcarl]

I think I'll wait and see rather than take Plugger's word on it. He tends to put a gloomy spin on things. That's just his nature.

It's entirely within the realms that one or more of the aforementioned will be a good player for us pretty quickly. It's not as if they don't have any experienced hands around them

[bobmurray]

I think I'll wait and see rather than take Plugger's word on it. He tends to put a gloomy spin on things. That's just his nature.

It's entirely within the realms that one or more of the aforementioned will be a good player for us pretty quickly. It's not as if they don't have any experienced hands around them

We all read P66 but i didn't realise some actually give creedence to his posts ........ mind boggling really

[stinger]

I think I'll wait and see rather than take Plugger's word on it. He tends to put a gloomy spin on things. That's just his nature.

It's entirely within the realms that one or more of the aforementioned will be a good player for us pretty quickly. It's not as if they don't have any experienced hands around them

We all read P66 but i didn't realise some actually give creedence to his posts ........ mind boggling really

only if you have a mind and a half a brain....


and learn how to spell ffs.....and stop being so nasty why don't you

[evo]

Are you serious. You honestly think I worry what people like you think. I only worry about what my family and friends think.

I was explaining to the other person what I called a good player. Surely you get it. If you dont I will get my 3 year old neice to explain it to you.

You would not have posted some 3 million times on here (most of which have a theme of big head self importance) if you did not care what people think. Oh and you can get your niece to explain that it is I before e except after c.

[Zed]

What is good? Saad had a very good year for a first year player but if it was his 7th year I reckon he would be rated outside our top10 so he is in the bottom half of our regular list. My point is i doubt Lee or Hickey will get inside our top 10 this year and IMO if you're not inside the top 10 you arent improving the side enough for the side to actually get up the ladder.

Agree withe the first sentence but not so sure about the second sentence. Our biggest problem has always been depth. In our strong years Our top 6 players have almost always been better than any other clubs top 6, but we've been let down by players 16-22. Hypothetically would Saad and Milera have had more impact than Eddy and Mcqualter in the GFs ?. Ithink the point youre highlighting however is that our top 10 currently is nowhere near as strong as it has been in the past - and that is what is going to hold us back making a significant jump up the ladder.

[plugger66]

Are you serious. You honestly think I worry what people like you think. I only worry about what my family and friends think.

I was explaining to the other person what I called a good player. Surely you get it. If you dont I will get my 3 year old neice to explain it to you.

You would not have posted some 3 million times on here (most of which have a theme of big head self importance) if you did not care what people think. Oh and you can get your niece to explain that it is I before e except after c.

I would have posted 3 million times even if no one replied. But they do and will continue to do so to my enjoyment. If they dont I still get a laugh with what I write because I know there are people out there who actually get angry with what I write. Now that I find strange because as you point out, I have posted 3 million times. You would think people with half a brain could work out my posting after that many but your reply brings joy to my heart.

Anyway I hope those who say we will improve next year are right. I have given my reasons why we wont and they have given reasons why we will. Hope their reason are right because as much as people seem to think I want to be right all the time I am happy to say I was wrong. Why should it worry me even to say that. No one knows who I am and I doubt many know who anyone is. We are names on a web site and bulls*** names at that.

[BackFromUSA]

How is this all related to Spencer White???

[stinger]

How is this all related to Spencer White???

it's not of course...just another thread turned to sh!t by certain posters....

[BackFromUSA]

Well I have a question re Spencer White ... Given his lack of fitness previously ... With a decent fitness base could he be our next CHF after Riewoldt? He seems to lead well; can take a pack mark; has some pace; looks to react well in traffic (although takes some silly risks) and has a relaxed (if not long) kicking style. Or is he just going to be a full forward?

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Given their physical attributes, and style of play, I expect that the plan would be for Spencer to play at FF and Lee to play at CHF, long term. That would clearly make the most sense to me.

So far Spencer plays like Fraser Gehrig did when he was at FF for us (leading out from the goalsquare with his serious burst of speed- he's almost as fast as Saad over 20m (2.86sec v 2.89sec at their respective combines this year and last and I read he was also in the top 10% over 5m)- and not getting many possies, but kicking plenty of goals), but with a much bigger leap and more likelihood of taking big, high marks. Whereas, from what I can gather, after having read a lot about him (before we got him and of course since) and watching his video highlights from this year- which are well worth a look for those who haven't seen them, remembering that he is 194/195cm, which I don't think he looks in the video, probably because of that shock of hair- Lee is more physically and style-wise similar to Roo.

He will be able to run around here there and everywhere and use his speed (I've read that he recorded the exact same 20m sprint time that Nick did when he went to his draft camp- 2.93 sec- very quick for someone that height), mobility, athleticism, ground skills and so on to advantage across HF.

Make no mistake, these two have the capabilities/physical attributes/natural talent to make a hell of a formidable forward line duo down the track, if they are developed well and have a good run with injuries and are a major part of the reason I am a lot more positive about our future and the state of our list than many (especially since Lee could make an impact from the outset, as he most likely would have this year, had he been on an AFL list). There are no guarantees of course, but that is the case with those taken anywhere in the draft.

Physically and talent wise, these two have pretty much everything you'd want going for them, it would seem, so it's now pretty much up to us and them, to get it out of them on a regular basis. Both of them reportedly had issues with their work ethic off field (and on field, for Spencer), but both have reportedly turned that around significantly in recent times, resulting in their vastly improved performances. It seemingly just took a while for the penny to drop as to how much they had to work, to get the most out of them and now it's mainly a matter of making sure that continues, I expect. I imagine that Aaron Hamill would have greeted them at the door and from what I've heard, the club have been very impressed with Lee so far (He has been here longer than White, who also hasn't been training due to his wrist surgery).

We still need to add some genuine class to our midfield pretty soon and will probably need to add to our key defensive stocks at the end of next year, but bloody hell, our forward line going forward is potentially "elite" with White, Lee, Stanley, Wilkes, Hickey ("talls"), Siposs, Markworth, Murdoch, Dunell ("mediums") and Saad, Milera, Minchington, TDL ("smalls"), possibly fighting for 6 spots there, as well as anyone we add in the meantime, if we need to (not to mention the fact that Roo hopes to play for at least 3 more years, so I take it his body is feeling good). Almost all of them have "elite" speed and many of them have fantastic skills and/or "x-factor" and several of them are "dead eye dicks" from what they've shown in recent times (eg. White, Lee, Saad, TDL, Siposs).

So now, as far as I'm concerned, we can mainly look to target/strengthen our midfield in big way in the coming years, to make sure that we keep feeding that forward line long term and also look to strengthen the backline as needed, although with that many options in the forward line (I named 13 that I believe have the ability to make the grade), some of them are of course likely to find roles in other parts of the ground, which began already this year with Siposs ending the season very well down back.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

What is good? Saad had a very good year for a first year player but if it was his 7th year I reckon he would be rated outside our top10 so he is in the bottom half of our regular list. My point is i doubt Lee or Hickey will get inside our top 10 this year and IMO if you're not inside the top 10 you arent improving the side enough for the side to actually get up the ladder.

It seems we have a different idea on what is a good player that will improve the team.

The post of yours that I responded to, as you can see above (and it was very specific and I was only responding to one line of your post) said "People thinking Hickey, Lee and TDL are going to be good players in their first year are in fantasy land."

So now you're saying that you consider "good" to be top 10. OK, but who suggested that the likes of Hickey, Lee or TDL were likely to be "top 10" next year? Who are these that you're referring to that have suggested that and are therefore in "fantasy land"? I sure as hell haven't- I'm pretty sure I was suggesting that they could have the same sort of impact as Saad, Milera and Wilkes did this year, hence mentioning them and I don't expect any of them to be "top 10" next year (although Lee could if he really pulled out a big one, but I'm not necessarily expecting that in his first year) and I haven't seen anyone else suggest that they are going to be top ten, either.

I brought up Saad specifically because I remember distinctly that I and possibly others were suggesting this time last year that we thought Saad would be in our best 22 this year and that you were pretty much arguing that he wouldn't be and by stating what you did above (the "fantasy land" comment), after I had suggested that I thought Lee and maybe one or two others could have a similar impact to Saad and co this year, it seemed like you were making the same argument you were last year and that you hadn't learned anything from what Saad was able to do in his first year in the AFL this year.

I wasn't sure what to expect from Milera this time last year, nor Beau and I'm very sure you wouldn't have been expecting much from them, based on your views on Saad at the time and what you said about Lee, Hickey and TDL in your "fantasy land" comment, but I distinctly remembered what you had been arguing about Saad, so that is why I brought it up, to see if you had learned from what he was able to do this year, which you were suggesting this time last year he wouldn't, from memory.

As for suggesting that Saad, for instance, didn't improve the team this year, I don't agree with that at all. He (and Milera) definitely gave us something that we had been lacking in recent times, in some real speed and extra electricity and polish/class in our forward line, not to mention some extra forward pressure, on top of their 3 goals a game. The fact that we didn't move up the ladder as a result was a lot more to do with those that didn't have great years for us, or had more injuries, IMO, rather than them not improving our side at all.

I would suggest with great confidence that if they had not been on our list this year we would have finished lower down the ladder than we did, so to me that means that they added to/improved the team, from where we would have been without them. We may have finished lower than we did the previous year (although that had a lot to do with losing almost all our close ones this year, compared to last, IMO) but we would have finished lower than 9th still, if we hadn't had them this year, IMO, so in my book that certainly means they improved us and I expect it will be the same sort of situation with Lee and co. next year.

The big question for me will be will others improve enough for us to actually move up the ladder, rather than just not slide as much as we otherwise would?

As I said in another post, sure we have lost Goddard, who came 4th in our B&F, but the mere fact that he came 4th in the B&F, despite being well short of his brilliant best, suggests that there were plenty of others who dropped off this year, due to form, or injuries cutting their games, so as far as I'm concerned, a lot of our fate depends on those who had down years for whatever reason this year giving us more next year, to cover for the loss of BJ and Gram and hopefully more than cover for them, to help send us back up the ladder. I think Ray being given more games alone could help to cover for most of what Gram gave us this year, for starters. Remember, we're not replacing the Gram and Goddard of two years ago, we did that two years ago (with the Gram and Goddard that we've had since then, who weren't as good).

I went through the whole 22 in a post above and outlined whether I thought each of them would be likely to improve, stay the same, or drop back next year, all things being equal (ie. that they don't have bad injuries, which are hard to predict as we sit here) and I found a heap that have plenty of room for improvement in them on what they gave us this year and the only new one I had in there was Lee, as Sub, for R1.

I'm really expecting pretty big things (at least compared to their previous output) from the likes of McEvoy, Siposs and Steven next year, for starters and I'm also expecting Rhys to build on what he did this year and hope that someone like Ledger will be ready to finally make a solid impact in the middle, to give us another option there and help with the clearances, which he seems to do so well, on top of what I'm confident that we'll get from the likes of Lee.

I'm also hoping that Fisher will be able to play a fuller season and that we'll find someone else that does an adequate job for FB, to free Sam up to get back to what he does so well across HB, which we missed badly for much of this year. Then there's Gwilt, who will hopefully get back closer to his best, now that he's had a full year back from his reco and who knows how Roo will go this year if his knee really is greatly improved from those treatments he had on it this year? I mean if he continues to improve at the rate he was by the end of his season this year and plays a full season next year, then that could help us move back up a couple of spots or more on its own, especially if he has greater support, from the likes of a fitter and stronger Wilkes, Stanley, Lee, or Kosi. Then there's Gilbert who has lots of improvement in him to get back to his best, etc.

As I said in another post, if the older ones all start to realise that their time together is rapidly coming to a close, that could also put a big rocket up them and make them come out all guns blazing next year and if that happens, who knows how far we could go? I think that lacking a bit this year made the difference between winning and losing a lot of our close games and if we'd won 4 of those 6 very close ones we lost, we would have finished top 4, so I see no reason why we can't bridge that gap next year if a lot of these things I've mentioned come together (not to mention the game plan of course, that has plenty of room for improvement, especially if we got our over-attacking out of our system this year and get back to more of a balanced approach next year, with more focus on defence).

So I can see a heap of reasons why we could easily improve significantly next year, which is why I don't think it is out of the question at all for us to finish as high as top 4, but on the other hand, as I've said in recent days, I am very well aware of how easily it could also go the other way, especially if we were to get bad injuries.

This year we had pretty bad injuries to the areas we had the least cover for (ruck and FB/CHB) and it cost us, but we had pretty good experienced depth in the likes of Peake, Polo, Raph and then Blake and CJ (later in the year, when they were playing VFL) in case we had injuries in other areas, whereas next year I think we have better depth for sure in the ruck and key positions, but I don't see a lot of experienced depth in other areas, so if we were to get really bad injuries in those areas I think we could be in a bit of trouble. Also I feel that if we do start losing games then Roo and co. might start to really lose a bit of that fire and then we would really be in trouble.