Reincarnated says...Gram's kicking is shocking!

[reincarnated]

Is this thread still going

delightful ain't it?

[Batnoe]

i can understand why people are upset hearing things about one of their players that they like. But the fact that he cant kick and has no defensive skills is the cold hard truth

When Gram is around and a tackle is needed, he will wait around waiting for an intercept- just watch him a little more carefully and if it is one on one he will be beaten, he may get to a tackle as second man in but rarely the first man in.

some players deserved to be bagged as they shouldnt play AFL, Gram should and is capabale of being a star but there are a few things he can fix.

Last year we were all abusing the s*** out of Roo with his kicking at goal- this didnt mean he was a bad player it meant that he really needed to pick up his set shots at goal- which he's done

i dont think there is anyone on this thread that is saying that Gram isnt a capable footy player just that his kicking and defensive tackling skills need work

[saintsRrising]

Well with all the talk about how great the Catas midfield is (which it is)..one thing they lack is a really quick outside player.

So an in-form Gram provides a point of difference for us.

[saintly]

Gees Batnoe, I reckon he was up there too, and I reckon he did have a few turnovers.

But watch the game as a whole, and have a look at how many others completely f***ed up their disposal...

And take into account how far he'd run with the ball, and what was ahead of him on the field when he had to kick.

He often gets team mates "onside" with his runs, and when he looks up, has no-one in front of him.

I still say he's an integral part of our team structure and will him to keep taking the oppo's on and run and kick long.

Yes. But i mean generally!!

His disposal is generally poor and he cannot tackle - or wont tackle

His game was genius on the weekend, but he needs to be consitant and hit targets!

gram has laid at least one tackle in all bar one game this year . 22 tackles

he has had 24 clangers.

[Batnoe]

Gees Batnoe, I reckon he was up there too, and I reckon he did have a few turnovers.

But watch the game as a whole, and have a look at how many others completely f***ed up their disposal...

And take into account how far he'd run with the ball, and what was ahead of him on the field when he had to kick.

He often gets team mates "onside" with his runs, and when he looks up, has no-one in front of him.

I still say he's an integral part of our team structure and will him to keep taking the oppo's on and run and kick long.

Yes. But i mean generally!!

His disposal is generally poor and he cannot tackle - or wont tackle

His game was genius on the weekend, but he needs to be consitant and hit targets!

gram has laid at least one tackle in all bar one game this year . 22 tackles

he has had 24 clangers.

Define clanger!!

Clanger doesnt mean bad kick or handball, it generally means Free kick against, out on full etc.

What is his percentage of kicks to target or possesions, it would only be about 65%

[saint66au]

Clanger doesnt mean bad kick or handball, it generally means Free kick against, out on full etc.

I think youll find clangers include kicks that are marked by opposition players or dont hit their intended targets by a long way. A kick 6 ft over Roos head on the lead would count as a clanger.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Clanger doesnt mean bad kick or handball, it generally means Free kick against, out on full etc.

I think youll find clangers include kicks that are marked by opposition players or dont hit their intended targets by a long way. A kick 6 ft over Roos head on the lead would count as a clanger.

A clanger is defined IIRC as a disposal that leads directly to a turnover, be that free against, clanger by hand or foot.

The two thing it therefore gets balanced against are frees against (noting that there are on occasion "professional" free kicks) and disposal efficiency.

An effective kick is defined as either a long kick that doesn't lead directly to a turnover, a mid length kick that retains possession, or a short kick that retains possession uncontested (i.e short kick that asks a lot of the receiver deserves more credit than the kicker). Note that while in the past a behind was considered an effective kick, IIRC they changed that last year, and now a behind is an innefective kick.

To the poster earlier suggesting that "reasonable" disposal level would be 50%: while general disposal has dropped in the last couple of years as gamestyle has shifted, I'd be stunned if it's dropped that far. Certainly bankline players still have a boost due to chiparound kicks.

A few years ago, the rule of thumb was 80% for backliners, 70 for mids, and 60 for forwards, which would drop a bit (~5%) for insiders and rise (~5%) for outsiders... assuming relative skill. Inside/Outside defined as >< 30% contested possession.

Caveats:
- The dropoff in the last couple of years has been definite (and I don't know the numbers). While certain backliners benefit from kicking around uncontested, on the balance more players on the ground are faced with toucher kicks.
- Disposal efficiency itself can be misleading, as it combines kicks and handballs, and the handball ratios generally exceed 1:1 overall these days. e.g. in 2007 IIRC Jones had a DE of around 70... and a KE of around 50.

I'll have to buy and AFL record one of these days (at $4, I'm not paying that essentially just for the single stats page i'm interested in week in, week out) to get the breakdown, and I suppose I ought look up past performance as well, but from memory, Gram's KE has never been great (i.e. around average for a mid, even given the outside possession ratio), and his clanger count has always been relatively high.

[reincarnated]

This thread is not done yet

[66 Saints]

Well with all the talk about how great the Catas midfield is (which it is)..one thing they lack is a really quick outside player.

So an in-form Gram provides a point of difference for us.

Will our really quick outside player win or lose the game for us?

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... hp?t=53443

[vacuous space]

A clanger is defined IIRC as a disposal that leads directly to a turnover, be that free against, clanger by hand or foot.

A clanger is a turnover. CD chose to use the word 'clanger' as a substitute for 'turnover'. They give clangers to disposals that lead to uncontested marks or uncontested possessions for the opposition or frees against.

A kick 6 feet over Roo's head isn't necessarily a clanger or even an ineffective disposal. It depends where the ball ends up.

[St Fidelius]

Grams kicking has not been the best this year, but he is ranked second at the Club for inside 50s with 105 this season, 66% of which resulted in a St Kilda possession.

Gram has kicked 8:14 this year, yes there is plenty of room for improvement in that area, but he is definitely in our best 22.

[Iceman234]

in another thread perfectionist wrote:

So, there are two possibilities:

Coach A
5. Brendon Goddard
4. Jason Gram
3. Kosi
2. Shane Tuck
1. Lenny Hayes or Clinton Jones

Coach B
5. Brendon Goddard
4. Jason Gram
3. Nick Dal Santo
2. Kosi
1. Clinton Jones or Lenny Hayes

Saintsational voted

5. Brendon Goddard
4. Justin Koschitzke
3. Lenny Hayes
2. Nick Dal Santo
1. Jason Gram

I am bitterly disappointed the coaches and the folk of SS are such poor judges.