Those Saints under the pump in 2008

[Teflon]

True about fergs Fid (and Im a fan too) BUT you do get to a stage where injuries or not you ask the question - how long?

For mine the guys this year who have to step up that have been theres a while are:

Gwilt - Looks indecisive clumsy and slow to me.
Raph - see Gwilt....
Mini - step up, take what chances you get cause this is it
Fergs - pray for a decent injury run and some form
Blake - consistency - he performed well in 07 but now has more underneath pressure I reckon
C Gardiner - been at Geelong a long while and many of their fans were saying "how long"??? ....we cant take 5 yrs to work that out...
L Fisher - was shopped round wasnt he? if so whats that say?
Fiora - Played ok in 07 still struggled for consistency IMO and cant afford to have to many dud games in a row.

[St Fidelius]

True about fergs Fid (and Im a fan too) BUT you do get to a stage where injuries or not you ask the question - how long?

For mine the guys this year who have to step up that have been theres a while are:

Gwilt - Looks indecisive clumsy and slow to me.
Raph - see Gwilt....
Mini - step up, take what chances you get cause this is it
Fergs - pray for a decent injury run and some form
Blake - consistency - he performed well in 07 but now has more underneath pressure I reckon
C Gardiner - been at Geelong a long while and many of their fans were saying "how long"??? ....we cant take 5 yrs to work that out...
L Fisher - was shopped round wasnt he? if so whats that say?
Fiora - Played ok in 07 still struggled for consistency IMO and cant afford to have to many dud games in a row.

yep, teffs...

all those are true IMO L Fisher is the player that I would have in mind before Fergs IMO...

A Player that the OP seemed to omit for some reason???

IMO Fergs with a FULL pre season is far and above L Fisher but then again that's my opinion

Far me to suggest that to saintsRrising.....

Fergs is a good player and with a full pre season will prove the MANY doubters....

[saintsRrising]

Fergs 2007...

Season 2007 Totals/Averages
Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts Frees For Frees Ag.
Total 2 8 5 13 3 0 0 6 0 2 3
Average 2 4.0 2.5 6.5 1.5 0 0 3.0 0 1.0 1.5


L Fishers 2007

Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts Frees For Frees Ag.
Total 21 174 131 305 115 1 4 32 0 12 14
Average 21 8.3 6.2 14.5 5.5 0 0.2 1.5 0



A fit and firing Max, Goose and BJ......combined with Dempster pushing for selection will seea lot of competition for a place down back.

L Fisher could well be squeezed out of the backline and may have to rely on successfully converting to a mid field tagger.

[St Fidelius]

Fergs 2007...

Season 2007 Totals/Averages
Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts Frees For Frees Ag.
Total 2 8 5 13 3 0 0 6 0 2 3
Average 2 4.0 2.5 6.5 1.5 0 0 3.0 0 1.0 1.5


L Fishers 2007

Games Kicks Handballs Disposals Marks Goals Behinds Tackles Hitouts Frees For Frees Ag.
Total 21 174 131 305 115 1 4 32 0 12 14
Average 21 8.3 6.2 14.5 5.5 0 0.2 1.5 0

Yep

You have just proved one thing .....

You are a stats man and have not seen Fergs play much have you??

Get a clue ???

and not stats FFS

Clue ...

Stats....

Watch some games...

Moron...

[saintsRrising]

Well St Fid...once again you enter a string...not to talk footy but to attack and stir.

It seems to me that you want to carry grudges and baggage from some imagined transgression. How about just posting on what is said in the string???

You could just try posting your views without the abuse as all the other posters have done...many of whom have posted counter views to me.

I create strings to create discussion and debate.

The OP was an invitation for forumites to post who they thought may be under the pump...or who should not be. I through up some names....others have been suggested by others including yourself.

It is a pity that you cannot post a view with having to try and bait a poster.


As for Ferg....all I have said in this string is that he was lucky to be retained and in my view he was, and that he will needa better year in 2008 than he had in 2007 to be reatained......all based on yes watching him and the others play.


Cheers s Rr

[mad saint guy]

Allen - Needs to get over his injuries and play some solid footy for Casey. Has a nice skill set and should be given every chance to make it, but he needs to work hard and make up for his missed year in 2007, especially since he was a top age draftee.

Armitage - Just needs to play consistent footy, raise his fitness and challenge for a spot in the seniors. He doesn't need to come into the side and star, but we need some signs to show he was worth pick 9.

Attard - Lyon loves him, so he'll probably be elevated at the end of the year, but he can't lose much pace or agility if he wants to be a senior player. Must have a good rehab, because he was only on the frigne last year.

R.Clarke - I think he has the talent to be a quality defender, but if he keeps getting injured I'm not sure how long we can persist with him. must lift in '08.

Dempster - Wasn't wanted at Sydney. Not sure why he is wanted at St Kilda. Will need to double his possession rate if he wants to get a game ahead of Blake.

Ferguson - Won't get a game as a defender unless we have huge injuries and he hasn't played a decent game as a forward since he was a junior. Cant' see him on the list in 2009.

L.Fisher - He's a decent player, but we could get by without him. Needs to gain some distance over the likes of Ferguson, Dempster and Gwilt to ensure he is at St Kilda in '09. Probably one of the few AFL quality players who we could trade.

C.Gardiner - Was given many, many opportunities at Geelong and never performed. At the moment he is a just very good replacement for Sweeney at Casey. The effort has always been there for him, but he's just never been able to have an impact at AFL level. I don't think that will change.

M.Gardiner - If he doesn't play 15 decent games he should be cut. If he finally manages to get on the ground he needs to do more than what he did for West Coast in his last coupl eof years there.

Gehrig - If he drops below his 2007 form he would be very close to being a liability. Needs to apply defensive pressure while keeping the goals flowing. He'll probably retire, but if he wants to play for a couple more years he needs to earn his spot on the list.

Gwilt - Was ok as an emergency defender in 2007, but shouldn't be kept on the list purely as backup incase Max, Goose and Chips are injured. Needs to learn to play small or in the midfield as well.

Howard - I thought he showed a couple of good signs in his brief senior outings, but he needs to start having a real impact in the VFL. If he's still struggling for a senior game at Casey by the end of the season he could be demoted.

Jones - I just don't see why Lyon has kept him. He was the true definition of a liability in the seniors and at 24 he isn't going to suddenly learn to kick. People go on and on about his great first three games, but forget that even Lyon dropped him after his debut. I just don't think he is capable of having a positive impact in the AFL. That said, Lyon absolutely loves him and he'll probably be around for a while.

King - Has been nothing more than an injury-riddled backup ruckman since 2002. However he does seem to be having a pretty good pre season and played some ok footy last year. If he stays on the ground and builds up some reasonable form then at least we'll have someone with the size and smarts to compete with quality opposition ruckmen.

Maguire - Goose has had some shocking injuries over the past few years. He had two good (although slightly injury-interrupted) years in '04 and '05, and seems to be living off the reputation he developed them. When fit, he is a vital player for us, because he is the only player who has the strength to take on power forwards and the skill to hurt them going the other way. Max is an amazing negator, but hardly gets a kick. Chips is a great rebounder, but only an average defender. However Maguire has really struggled to get on the ground recently and when he has played, his form has been ordinary. He would still have great trade value and could be used as bait if he can't get back to his best this year.

Rix - He is just a poor AFL footballer. He has never actually beaten his opponent or hurt the opposition. He was drafted because Ben Hudson made a great transition from VFL to AFL, so we tried to get a VFL ruckman as well. He's still on the list because he is mature and durable, while our method of recruiting old, injury-prone ruckman hasn't worked well. I would be surprised if he wasn't kept for another year, but hopefully on of King/Gardiner regain some form while one of McEvoy/van Rheenen develop well so we can delist Rix in 2009.

[Oh When the Saints]

The following players would have to show a big improvement/far more consistency in 2008 to be retained IMO:
Gwilt
Ferguson
McQualter
C. Gardiner
Jones
M. Gardiner

Everyone else should be pretty safe, unless they go backwards in their output.

But those 6 are definitely out of the system this time next year unless things change, IMO.

[St Fidelius]

As for Ferg....all I have said in this string is that he was lucky to be retained and in my view he was, and that he will needa better year in 2008 than he had in 2007 to be reatained......all based on yes watching him and the others play.


Cheers s Rr

Please spear me the drama of it all...

Please enlighten me and our coach, on to why he was "LUCKY'

I am sure that RL would welcome your remarks (even though it does become tiresome at times)


You have based "your opinion" on just what???


Again...

Fergs can play tall or small in defence and was recruited as a prospect as a possible forward....

Fergs has proven to be on the list, for that reason. The very fact that you and others suggest that he is mentioned to be under the pump ahead of some other players, to me suggests that you have really never seen much of him at all..

But hey...

I am used to you "waffle" and most times I go along with it...

IMO Fergs is a "class act" and I hope he proves it this year...

The point about L Fisher is......

IMO Fergs is far better than him and maybe you should look at some training instead of your tiresome facts that is becoming boring.......

[Otiman]

He was being talked up last pre-season, then had a string of hamstring injuries which really screwed him over. This is his last chance, he has the ability but he has to prove himself at AFL level.

[evertonfc]

Maguire...He would still have great trade value and could be used as bait if he can't get back to his best this year.

You're not wrong there. The question is making a judgement on whether he's a young KPP with problems who can overcome them and become a strong player - Polak or Lucas one who continues to drop off, like Whitnall or Hay.

I think he's in the former category. He will need to work hard, however, I think he'll get there.

Great post otherwise MSG; slightly tough on Dempster, but the rest I really liked. I'd be looking for 10 good games out of Gardiner, and that would be my only criteria for him.

[rodgerfox]

Every single player is under the pump.

Every single coach is under the pump.

2007 was the worst year I've seen in a long, long time. For so many different reasons.

Poor coaching, poor effort, injuries, poor depth, poor recruitment.

Everyone is under the pump. Everyone is assuming we simply had a rough year and will naturally bounce back in 08. For mine, there was so much wrong with 07 that I don't see any natural improvement at all - injuries aside of course.

[aussiejones]

07 was poor

The hope for 08 is that there will be more competition for a spot in the 22.

Even so , cant wait for 08

[Dis Believer]

For mine, there was so much wrong with 07 that I don't see any natural improvement at all - injuries aside of course.

Your world must be a dark, cold place indeed! You don't think any continuity of play and further experience will benefit Raph? You don't think a full AFL pre-season will improve Armo's fitness? You don't think the ruckman from the premiership team, injury free, will bolster our ruck division? You don't think the addition of a proven small/medium forward will improve the structure of our forward line? You don't imagine the "ripple" effect that the addition of that forward will provide will be beneficial to, say, Milne or X Clarke?

Incidentally, the hypothesis that "we were so bad in '07 that we can't possibly improve" is probably one of the strangest I've seen. Most people would draw the conclusion that we were so bad in '07 that all we can do is improve. But there you go - it takes all kinds.

I assume from that stance that you feel there are systemic and fundamental flaws within the club/structure/personnel that will condemn us to mediocrity for the foreseeable future?

[saintsRrising]

You have based "your opinion" on just what???

The Op stated:
Well it is a new season...and while every player is only as good as their last game the 2008 season will see a number of players who MUST deliver more than they did in 2007 to be retained at the end of 2008.

Ferg delivered only two senior games both of poor quality in 2007.

As per the OP if he does not deliver more than this in 2008 he will be delisted IMO.

Potential only takes you so far. If you cannot show it on the park then you get delisted.

Hamill was a star, but could not deliver it on the field in 2007 and so is no longer at the club.

On Ferg I did not state that he was not capable of playing better football...just that he needed to do so in 2008 and if he does not then he will most likely not be on our list in 2009.


On Leigh Fisher..he is one of 6-10 players chasing the 21st and 22nd spot in our 2008 team....and it would therefore not surprise me if he is not in the 22 for Round 1.

If L Fisher DELIVERED what he delivered in 2007 then IMO he would be on our 2009 list.

[saintsRrising]

A good read MSG...

Dempster - Wasn't wanted at Sydney. Not sure why he is wanted at St Kilda. Will need to double his possession rate if he wants to get a game ahead of Blake.

.

Though why would Dempster need to double his possession rate??? (be nice if he did of course!!)....to do so would have put him at No 5 for the Saints....

Compared to say Blake in 2007 Dempster had very similar stats....though from what Swans fans have said he generally would have playeda more defensive game with an expected lower posssion rate.

89kg Weight 87kg
22 2007 Games 14
5.7 Kicks Per Game 6.5
6.9 Handballs Per Game 4.3
12.6 Disposals Per Game 10.8
4.1 Marks Per Game 3.7
0.3 Goals Per Game 0.2
0.2 Behinds Per Game 0.3
2.0 Tackles Per Game 2.0



While Schneider would most likely have been the main focus of the trade it will be interesting to see what roles RL will try Dempster in.

A run with mid? Tagging

BP?
HBF?

A bit of all depending on match ups.

Or some other role???


Attards injury and Bakers suspension opens up a spot for a tagger at seasons start..... L Fisher? Dempster? The young Geary?


As to why the Swans dumped him...and we took him.

As I understand things salaray cap was a big problem for the Swans and so this was a factor.

Whereas at the Saints the departure of the highly paid GTrain and packaged out Hamill freed up salary cap allowing Schneider and King to be secured.....along with the "bargain" set of thrown in "steak knives" of C Gardiner and Dempster.

As an aside it would be interesting to know as a % how much GTrain's salary has dropped 2008 compared to 2007.

[CURLY]

Remember Clement got moved on from Freo and became a great player. Im not saying Dempster will be as good but traded players arent all scrap heap material.

[Oh When the Saints]

Dempster was wanted ... Roos brought him back into the team for their last match, a final against Collingwood.

He was good enough to make the 22 of the best team of 05/06 most weeks.

On that basis, he will easily make our 22.


And Curly makes a good point ... some players often kick on at another club. Brett Voss is another example of that.

[Otiman]

L Fisher - was shopped round wasnt he? if so whats that say?

Interesting point, many seem to forget that he was offered to Sydney but they refused because of the fitness test/scan.

[saintsRrising]

Remember Clement got moved on from Freo and became a great player. Im not saying Dempster will be as good but traded players arent all scrap heap material.

Well as King, C Gardiner and Dempster were all essentially"free" pick ups....they would seem to be worth a go on our list.

Though King I think is a "definite"

Dempster a "very likely"....but ina large pack of players on the fring.

While C Gardiner is just a "maybe".

[CURLY]

Being shopped around or other clubs asking if his services were up for trade? Maybe Sydney put it to us that they wanted him in return for Schneider, in that case it shows that they valued him as worth pick 20 somthing.

[saintsRrising]

L Fisher - was shopped round wasnt he? if so whats that say?

Interesting point, many seem to forget that he was offered to Sydney but they refused because of the fitness test/scan.

I think that was the rumour yes...but did not L Fisher come out and say that he was not tested and never went to Sydney despite the rumours and press articles stating that he did?????


As to be shopped around..I think most clubs have their untouchables...and others who are not...

As a he is nota "core" player it would not surprise me if he was along with others.

But also remember that to be "shopped" around that you must actually have trade value.....

[DK27]

Those knocking L. Fisher should pull out the 2007 Adelaide game that we won by 2 points where L. Fisher tagged Goodwin in the midfield and beat him. He isn't flashy, he makes errors some times, but he is effective.
Ferguson was beaten against West Coast by Le Cras (an average small forward) and killed by Pettifer from Richmond.
There is no comparison between the two. One has done well in the seniors for years and one has not.
QED.

[rodgerfox]

For mine, there was so much wrong with 07 that I don't see any natural improvement at all - injuries aside of course.

You don't think any continuity of play and further experience will benefit Raph? You don't think a full AFL pre-season will improve Armo's fitness?

Yes, it should. However with the tackling efforts, goal scoring, forward line structure, midfield setups the above improvements won't count for much.

You don't think the ruckman from the premiership team, injury free, will bolster our ruck division? You don't think the addition of a proven small/medium forward will improve the structure of our forward line? You don't imagine the "ripple" effect that the addition of that forward will provide will be beneficial to, say, Milne or X Clarke?

Last year we recruited a supposed gun tap ruckman which had supposedly been overlooked for so long - didn't count for much, did it?

Schneider has proven nothing to me. Even if we had Kevin Bartlett in the forward pocket, I doubt it would have mattered. We were so far from any form of system it wasn't funny.

Which is sickening considering the calibre of players we have in that forward line.

Incidentally, the hypothesis that "we were so bad in '07 that we can't possibly improve" is probably one of the strangest I've seen. Most people would draw the conclusion that we were so bad in '07 that all we can do is improve. But there you go - it takes all kinds.

I'm not sure who has the hypothessis that "we were so bad in '07 that we can't possibly improve"??

My thoughts are based on the reasons we were so poor. We have adopted a game plan which brought a club success (still only just mind you) because they had their absolute best list available for 10 straight weeks!! Not only that, Sydney's list was incredibly good, both in terms of ability and experience.

I assume from that stance that you feel there are systemic and fundamental flaws within the club/structure/personnel that will condemn us to mediocrity for the foreseeable future?

Maybe not - however nothing I saw last year suggested that we don't have fundamental flaws in the approach we take on-field.

[CURLY]

For mine, there was so much wrong with 07 that I don't see any natural improvement at all - injuries aside of course.

You don't think any continuity of play and further experience will benefit Raph? You don't think a full AFL pre-season will improve Armo's fitness?

Yes, it should. However with the tackling efforts, goal scoring, forward line structure, midfield setups the above improvements won't count for much.

You don't think the ruckman from the premiership team, injury free, will bolster our ruck division? You don't think the addition of a proven small/medium forward will improve the structure of our forward line? You don't imagine the "ripple" effect that the addition of that forward will provide will be beneficial to, say, Milne or X Clarke?

Last year we recruited a supposed gun tap ruckman which had supposedly been overlooked for so long - didn't count for much, did it?

Schneider has proven nothing to me. Even if we had Kevin Bartlett in the forward pocket, I doubt it would have mattered. We were so far from any form of system it wasn't funny.

Which is sickening considering the calibre of players we have in that forward line.

Incidentally, the hypothesis that "we were so bad in '07 that we can't possibly improve" is probably one of the strangest I've seen. Most people would draw the conclusion that we were so bad in '07 that all we can do is improve. But there you go - it takes all kinds.

I'm not sure who has the hypothessis that "we were so bad in '07 that we can't possibly improve"??

My thoughts are based on the reasons we were so poor. We have adopted a game plan which brought a club success (still only just mind you) because they had their absolute best list available for 10 straight weeks!! Not only that, Sydney's list was incredibly good, both in terms of ability and experience.

I assume from that stance that you feel there are systemic and fundamental flaws within the club/structure/personnel that will condemn us to mediocrity for the foreseeable future?

Maybe not - however nothing I saw last year suggested that we don't have fundamental flaws in the approach we take on-field.

A game plan mastrefully thought out and played out to restrict margins in unavoidable defeats due to injuries. Lyon limited the damage to at least give us a chance when we had some resembalnce of our best side up and going.

[rodgerfox]

A game plan mastrefully thought out and played out to restrict margins in unavoidable defeats due to injuries. Lyon limited the damage to at least give us a chance when we had some resembalnce of our best side up and going.

What about the easily winnable games?

We just fell over the line in most of them. Even when we played 'well', we weren't convincing at all.