Why are we losing the contested ball?

[SainterK]

I am not too fussed, we seem to have gears this year....and certainly seem capable of winning enough of it when the game is up for grabs (I have erased last week from my memory)

Our approach to September seems very Geelong like this year.

What gear were we in on Friday night SainterK? I kept thinking that we were about to break away but we just couldn't get hands on the ball at the clearances.

Having said that, the hawks are a quality outfit with some fair in and under types. We need to aim to break even with them.

The gear that accomodates Roo and Gram playing into form

[mbogo]

Sorry to say I cannot erase last week - in front of the largest crowd in a home and away game ever - playing for top spot we could not land a punch and it was absolutely dismal. This was not first gear it was reverse.
But we live to fight another day - although we only get one more chance against them this year I reckon.
Need more killer instinct and to get the tackles back over 80.

[Thinline]

I am not too fussed, we seem to have gears this year....and certainly seem capable of winning enough of it when the game is up for grabs (I have erased last week from my memory)

Our approach to September seems very Geelong like this year.

What gear were we in on Friday night SainterK? I kept thinking that we were about to break away but we just couldn't get hands on the ball at the clearances.

Having said that, the hawks are a quality outfit with some fair in and under types. We need to aim to break even with them.

Third with a misfiring engine.

[Mr Magic]

Sorry to say I cannot erase last week - in front of the largest crowd in a home and away game ever - playing for top spot we could not land a punch and it was absolutely dismal. This was not first gear it was reverse.
But we live to fight another day - although we only get one more chance against them this year I reckon.
Need more killer instinct and to get the tackles back over 80.

So which game was the aberration?
Vs Colligwood
or
Vs Geelong

Both games on the big stage against top teams.

IMHO, we showed agauinst Geelong that we have the equipment to win when we are 'switched on'.

[Leo.J]

Sorry to say I cannot erase last week - in front of the largest crowd in a home and away game ever - playing for top spot we could not land a punch and it was absolutely dismal. This was not first gear it was reverse.
But we live to fight another day - although we only get one more chance against them this year I reckon.
Need more killer instinct and to get the tackles back over 80.

So which game was the aberration?
Vs Colligwood
or
Vs Geelong

Both games on the big stage against top teams.

IMHO, we showed agauinst Geelong that we have the equipment to win when we are 'switched on'.

Collingwood played like it was a final and their season and credibility depended on it, we played like it was a H&A game.

We had too many underdone to be competitive against a side with alot to prove.

The same could be said of the Cats game, we wanted it more. The Cats had plenty out and under done and the game didn't matter too much for them.

Same again with the Hawks on friday night, they are playing to consolidate a spot in the finals, we are really just treading water making sure we're all fit come September.

IMO when we need to win the contested ball we will.

It's alot more important that we come out of these games in tact, rather than winning any of these so called psychological battles.

We all know all too well that winning during the H&A season means nothing except the 4 points.

And atm we'd have to lose 2 out of 5 to 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and 15th, and both the Dogs and Freo would have to win every game from now on for us to miss out on a top 4 spot.

I wouldn't look too deeply into our form atm, we'll do what we have to do to make sure we are still around when it matters.

[mbogo]

Both the above are valid comments.
The Coll game was the aberration and the only time I have seen us not play "Saints footy" in major games for over two years. I do not expect us to play anything like that in the finals. But as been said elsewhere, I think Lyon is trying different strategies and is not too worried at present.

[St. Luke]

The same reason Collingwood have improved their contested ball.

Precisely!

So what if Ball couldn't kick a friggin ball...that wasn't his specialty! His was getting it efficently out of tight situations to bloke who could! His departure has left us with a bit of a hole imo

[samoht]

re :Luke Ball'$ departure and hi$ contested ball which we are $adly missing.

Luke Ball was thrashed not once but twice by Watson last year who starred with around 40 possessions each game - many of them contested - whilst Ball managed around 10 po$Se$$ion$ each game.

re: Ball - Let's not let myths develop to replace his frequent shortcomings.

[Leo.J]

He al$o cho$e to leave.

[vacuous space]

Ball is third at Collingwood in contested ball and he'd be fifth if he were here. That's if you assume that he gets the same number of minutes as he does there. I don't think we miss him all that much.

It's not like we're getting regularly thrashed in contested ball. We lost by seven to the Pies. We were +89 going into Friday night's game. We had quite a few players down on Their usual output in That game.

I think we've got the balance right. We just need to play better.

BTW - ball didn't play on Watson. Lenny did.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Not sure if this has been discussed anywhere on here, but I noticed last week we lost the contested ball badly, and from the stats that were put up at the end of each 1/4 it looked like we were getting SMASHED in contested ball. On the flip side we out tackled the hawks 2:1. Is that b/c we couldn't win the ball so we had to keep tackling?

Apart from the trend in general, I think credit has to be given to Hodge and his 19 CP, Sewell and his 13, Burgoyne 9 and Mitchell 8.

They've have got very good grunt from the middle.

As far as the trend goes, I thik it has more to do with St Kilda playing a coralling type game rather than a hard tackling one. Less contested ball forced on their own terms.

[samoht]

[quote="vacuous space"]
BTW - ball didn't play on Watson. Lenny did.[/quote

I'm pretty sure it was Ball who played on Watson the first time and was beaten comprehensively .. and that he was tried early on the second time on Watson but failed before Lenny may have been assigned.

Ball played in the centre for us .. if he was replaced by Lenny (who usually ruck roves) there was a good reason for it.

[plugger66]

BTW - ball didn't play on Watson. Lenny did.[/quote

I'm pretty sure it was Ball who played on Watson the first time and was beaten comprehensively .. and that he was tried early on the second time on Watson but failed before Lenny may have been assigned.

Ball played in the centre for us .. if he was replaced by Lenny (who usually ruck roves) there was a good reason for it.

I'd love to know what the difference between a centreman, ruck rover and rover is these days.

[samoht]

I'd love to know what the difference between a centreman, ruck rover and rover is these days.

true .. but the point I'm trying to make is Watson was selected in the centre vs Ball in the centre - as direct opponents , but Ball was moved away from Watson when it became obvious he was being pantsed.

So we didn't get too many contested balls from Ball vs the Dons and the reason was Watson thrashed him in contested ball... on his way to 2 forty possession games.

[plugger66]

I'd love to know what the difference between a centreman, ruck rover and rover is these days.

true .. but the point I'm trying to make is Watson was selected in the centre vs Ball in the centre - as direct opponents , but Ball was moved away from Watson when it became obvious he was being pantsed.

So we didn't get too many contested balls from Ball vs the Dons and the reason was Watson thrashed him in contested ball... on his way to 2 forty possession games.

Im a Lenny fan but I could have sworn he played on watson and was beaten.

[samoht]

I'd love to know what the difference between a centreman, ruck rover and rover is these days.

true .. but the point I'm trying to make is Watson was selected in the centre vs Ball in the centre - as direct opponents , but Ball was moved away from Watson when it became obvious he was being pantsed.

So we didn't get too many contested balls from Ball vs the Dons and the reason was Watson thrashed him in contested ball... on his way to 2 forty possession games.

Im a Lenny fan but I could have sworn he played on watson and was beaten.

The first encounter last year when Ball had 10 measly possessions - he played on Watson...and was comprehensively beaten.

the second game I think it was Dal that was shifted to him (but it could have been Hayes) ..after Watson had a stack of early possessions on Ball.
Anyway Ball had a fraction of Watson's possessions... and not much contested ball either way you look at it.

[Moods]

Any way you look at it, Ball is playing far better at the pies than he was with us. Good luck to him. He seems fitter, moving more freely. His kicking is still limited but he has been playing within his limitations. INterestingly he only had 72% game time on the weekend, by far the lowest out of all their starting mids.

Hate to say it, and I didn't think I would say it at the end of last year, but we do miss him. Shame he wouldn't play the role RL asked. If at the saints this year he is still behind Lenny, Dal, Joey, and CJ as starting mids. The passing of time though has made me realise why he didn't want to stay and play 5th fiddle, but it's a shame all the same. A bigger shame has been the lack of impact by Armo, whatever the reason being form or injuries this year.

[samoht]

Any way you look at it, Ball is playing far better at the pies than he was with us. Good luck to him. He seems fitter, moving more freely. His kicking is still limited but he has been playing within his limitations. INterestingly he only had 72% game time on the weekend, by far the lowest out of all their starting mids.

Hate to say it, and I didn't think I would say it at the end of last year, but we do miss him. Shame he wouldn't play the role RL asked. If at the saints this year he is still behind Lenny, Dal, Joey, and CJ as starting mids. The passing of time though has made me realise why he didn't want to stay and play 5th fiddle, but it's a shame all the same. A bigger shame has been the lack of impact by Armo, whatever the reason being form or injuries this year.

We can only go by what he was showing us - Watson would be worth the money Ball was seeking, if he played like Watson we would have paid him accordingly.
Watson also gets tagged .. Ball doesn't know what that word means - who would waste a tag on him ?

[SydneySainter]

I wasn't too fazed when we lost Ball last season. Since his 05 All Australian and Best and Fairest win, I think he was way over-rated since. Running his injured groins into the ground was probably the catalyst. He still busted his guts in the centre, but around the ground, I couldn't tell you what he else he did half the time. But I don't think he's enjoyed playing at the Saints since Lyon's arrival and while Lyon hoped that dropping Ball to the VFL would galvanise him, Ball was clearly insulted by it and the grand final controversy sealed the deal.

Since being at the Pies, he seems to be enjoying his footy again and likes playing under Malthouse, so a change of jumper seems to be what he needed.

I'm not going to start debating what Lyon could have done and vise-versa, as only Lyon and Ball know what was really said behind closed doors.

[Goose is king]

I am a very positive person.

I thought we would win it last year.

I thought we would win it this year up until these last two weeks.

Now I know every side is entitled to a flat patch (one loss and one draw against quality teams)and we have improvement in us but the worrying signs for me are below.

We have been smashed two times this year. Where last year we only lost three games by a total of about 22 points.

We are losing contested possession counts far more regularly and even the inside 50 entries.

Our percentage is fourth in the competition and I am a firm believer of percentage gauging the teams worth and standing.

I believe we are still a good team, probably not great and I would not be surprised if we win the big one, but I don't think we will.

[saintsRrising]

as only Lyon and Ball know what was really said behind closed doors.

Show me the money....

[vacuous space]

Lenny played on Watson both times. RL even talked about it on the couch discussing whether they should have shifted Jones onto Watson. Lyon would have preferred to but deferred to Elshaug who preferred a head-to-head matchup. I don't think Ball played much in the centre in the second game. I believe his TOG for that game was<50% and he spent most of it up forward.

[Mr Magic]

Lenny played on Watson both times. RL even talked about it on the couch discussing whether they should have shifted Jones onto Watson. Lyon would have preferred to but deferred to Elshaug who preferred a head-to-head matchup. I don't think Ball played much in the centre in the second game. I believe his TOG for that game was<50% and he spent most of it up forward.

IIRC, Ball was moved onto the HFF in the second & third quarters (I believe to establish whether he could play the 'mini' role).
Unfortunately for us and Ball, Essendon chose to run the ball out of their backline through him and he floundered in their wake.
They continually switched play to isolate him and just ran away from him.

That game probably confiremd in the minds of our coaching staff that the only position he could play in our current system was as an 'in & under' midfielder.

[sunsaint]

Lenny played on Watson both times. RL even talked about it on the couch discussing whether they should have shifted Jones onto Watson. Lyon would have preferred to but deferred to Elshaug who preferred a head-to-head matchup. I don't think Ball played much in the centre in the second game. I believe his TOG for that game was<50% and he spent most of it up forward.

IIRC, Ball was moved onto the HFF in the second & third quarters (I believe to establish whether he could play the 'mini' role).
Unfortunately for us and Ball, Essendon chose to run the ball out of their backline through him and he floundered in their wake.
They continually switched play to isolate him and just ran away from him.

That game probably confiremd in the minds of our coaching staff that the only position he could play in our current system was as an 'in & under' midfielder.

so played out of position for one game and the loss was his fault.
And watson tore strips off NDS but that doesnt fit in with $amoht'$ argument.
as with stats being twisted to suit, the same goes with prejudiced memory

[Moods]

Any way you look at it, Ball is playing far better at the pies than he was with us. Good luck to him. He seems fitter, moving more freely. His kicking is still limited but he has been playing within his limitations. INterestingly he only had 72% game time on the weekend, by far the lowest out of all their starting mids.

Hate to say it, and I didn't think I would say it at the end of last year, but we do miss him. Shame he wouldn't play the role RL asked. If at the saints this year he is still behind Lenny, Dal, Joey, and CJ as starting mids. The passing of time though has made me realise why he didn't want to stay and play 5th fiddle, but it's a shame all the same. A bigger shame has been the lack of impact by Armo, whatever the reason being form or injuries this year.

We can only go by what he was showing us - Watson would be worth the money Ball was seeking, if he played like Watson we would have paid him accordingly.
Watson also gets tagged .. Ball doesn't know what that word means - who would waste a tag on him ?

Don't disagree with any of that. I also don't blame the saints, or even think they made a mistake by allowing Luke to walk last year. Not on the conditions he was seeking anyway. I'm just surprised that we are actually missing him this year - particularly if the form he's displayed this year at the pies could have been demonstrated at the saints. There may well be good reasons why he didn't play like this at the saints, ie game style, structures, lack of confidence etc. I would also prefer Jobe Watson in our team to Ball - however not sure Jobe Watson would get the time he is after either if he played at the saints. Everyone plays 2nd fiddle to Lenny in the slowish, in and under role. That's just life. No midfield can afford to have too many of that type.