Armo

[saintly]

Such a good football player. Just summed up at 3 min mark of 2nd. Wins contested ball on wing. Dishes handball to Gilbo and then bang - protects and blocks for Gilbo and lands a big shepherd.
Love watching him play in our side.

i saw the game again tonight.

real good he was. also liked Gilbert's game as well!

[BigMart]

Maybe Armo would have got there sooner if he was given a game

Although he would cherish his ABC player of the match awards....

[Moods]

Maybe Armo would have got there sooner if he was given a game

Maybe? But I doubt it. Hopefully Armo himself realises that the StKilda footy club doesn't revolve around him and his development and that he needed to perform each week to get a game, rather than just turn up and have games churned into him until he was ready to perform - especially when we were playing off in GF's.

It's the same mob that insist that Milera should continue to be played even when out of form, b/c apparently the more games he plays the better he will become - don't worry whether it helps the saints, just whether it benefits Milera.

Maybe, just maybe, Armo was forced to work much harder than what he was when he arrived. Maybe when he arrived as a first round draft pick he thought it might just all happen for him? I know he enjoyed the social side of footy and who can blame him. Once he realised that no games would be gifted to him and that he had to work hard in season and off season he is now bearing the fruits of his hard work. Like I said, sometimes it takes the penny longer to drop for some.

[BigMart]

That's far from what I've heard about David

One of the hardest workers since arriving Day 1

Always a competitive beast who thrives on the contest..... I think that's more of.... What you would like to believe. Fact is, worse players were getting games..... Proven by the fact they are no longer with us....

[Moods]

That's far from what I've heard about David

One of the hardest workers since arriving Day 1

Always a competitive beast who thrives on the contest..... I think that's more of.... What you would like to believe. Fact is, worse players were getting games..... Proven by the fact they are no longer with us....

WEll we've heard different things then. Why would I want to believe that about any saints player? The fact that some players have now left proves nothing - other than at that given time they were considered a better option to represent the club. Armo, as his form is right now is a far better player than Eddy, Mini, Fiora etc. Back then though he simply wasn't fit enough, and his skills/ball use was suspect. Yes he was a competitive beast - when the ball was in his area. Otherwise he was plain lazy or just not fit enough imo.

Armo reminded me of a good mate of mine, Brendan McCormack, who actually won the leagues Rising Star award for Fitzroy back in 1988. Wasn't particularly quick, had great skills, and was tough and competitive. Unlike Armo though, the penny never dropped for Billy. He played about 60-70 VFL/AFL games and faded back to local footy at Donvale (with John Peter-Budge) He was better than many guys who played 200 AFL games. In fact another of our mates in the area Steve Paxman who played 200 games for Fitzoy and Port Adelaide, Billy had more talant in his little finger than Pax had in his whole body. Guess which one worked harder though? Sometimes it has very little to do with talent. I bet Armo hasn't had CJ's work rate on the track until this year.... It's pretty obvious who the more talented footballer is too. Means nothing at selection though.

I suspect the club always believed he had it in him which is why he was retained on our list. The club was right but I'm pretty sure he was on his last chance this year.

[stinger]

He was wasting away in the VFL dominating in a slower paced game which was detrimental to his adaption to AFL.... It takes a youngn 30-60 games to get used to the pace of AFL footy and only after that are they going to be a consistent performer...

His use as a stationary defensive small forward last season was ridiculous....

Ross was/is a very poor player devoper as a coach..... But game day tactically is strong.....

Which kids really blossomed under him???

have to agree with you here......imho....lyin cost us one and possibly two premierships with his handling of armo and to a lesser degree, steven and geary

[plugger66]

He was wasting away in the VFL dominating in a slower paced game which was detrimental to his adaption to AFL.... It takes a youngn 30-60 games to get used to the pace of AFL footy and only after that are they going to be a consistent performer...

His use as a stationary defensive small forward last season was ridiculous....

Ross was/is a very poor player devoper as a coach..... But game day tactically is strong.....

Which kids really blossomed under him???

have to agree with you here......imho....lyin cost us one and possibly two premierships with his handling of armo and to a lesser degree, steven and geary

Of course he did.

[bergholt]

Ross was/is a very poor player devoper as a coach..... But game day tactically is strong.....

Which kids really blossomed under him???

sammy gilbert and gwilt definitely both came from nothing under ross - his persistence with gwilt especially was astounding. i was more than ready to dump gwilt in 2009 before he moved back in 2010 and became a star. dempster and dawson also developed into much better players under lyon, from a slightly older age.

clint jones, armo, mcevoy, steven, geary, stanley, simpkin all got their starts under ross. jarryd allen was given a few chances before unlucky injuries - hard to blame lyon for that.

there's also no doubt he developed gram, leigh fisher, raph, mcqualter, eddy. you might doubt their quality but they definitely improved as players under lyon.

some of them might have developed better if they were at collingwood. some might not have come through at all - gwilt is the obvious one.

so i'm not sure how you can say he didn't develop players.

[elizabethr]

He didn't develop players!

[bergholt]

He didn't develop players!

i mean, using logic. if you wanna be a deadshit then who am i to argue?

[BigMart]

Gwilt looked OK in his second game of AFL to me.... His ability was plain to see...

His position was not... Which was why he was 24 when he started to get consistent games.... Hard to believe Gwilt was not in the 2009 GF team..... Dawson and Gwilt are the same age

Sam Gilbert was another who was promising from Day 1. GT rated him as one of the best talents he had seen come into AFL. He had a great season at Casey in 2006.

Clint Jones was 25 before he became a regular in 2008
Geary was very encouraging before being dumped in 2009/2010 final series
Armo' development was too slow... 24 before becoming a consistent mid
Steven got his opportunity as a mid out of injury to Hayes and in desperation after being in a bad position mid 2011 and being roundly criticized for selecting old recycles
McEvoy was fortunate Gardy got injured in the second GF and again in 2011.

Those other players fit well into his GP but as players were left wanting
Gram was a Runner Up best and fairest in 2006
Mini was promising early in his career
Eddy was a sacrificial player
Fisher, not sure how he developed, his best games were his firt 10
Raph.... Well, that's a bad example

He did develop the defensive side of players, that I'll agree.... But this notion of paying their dues in the seconds for a number of season was ridiculous... It hindered development, stifled IMO

And just like the fact Lyon cannot be blamed for all of the draft failures, he cannot take credit for players doing well
They do have natural ability and work hard.... Most would have succeded regardless of the coach

My prediction
If Armitage was at a different club, he would have been closer to 100 games and would have 'arrived' in 2009

Also, this notion that he lacked fitness needs to be quashed.... He tested extremely well at 18 in endurance, number 1 in the draft combine for repeat sprint efforts and around 14 in the beep test and only got fitter... He trains very hard
His inability to win a lot of footy consistently was to do with opportunity, not fitness

[elizabethr]

Good work Mart!
Could not have put it better myself.

[Saint Bev]

I have always been an Armo fan and I am thrilled to see him playing so well. But from what I understand, he wasn't to heart broken when Ro$$ left.

[Moods]

My prediction
Also, this notion that he lacked fitness needs to be quashed.... He tested extremely well at 18 in endurance, number 1 in the draft combine for repeat sprint efforts and around 14 in the beep test and only got fitter... He trains very hard
His inability to win a lot of footy consistently was to do with opportunity, not fitness

Or he was lazy. I saw that with my own eyes numerous times. I was giving him the benefit of the doubt by saying it was fitness. I recall one of his early games at the saints and was staggered. He was literally standing watching the play as it moved frenetically towards him. The ball unexpectedly bobbed towards him and he suddenly sprang to life and tried to win it like the'competitive beast' that he is. The ball then left the area and he became stagnant again. I was puzzled about whether he was just too exhausted to move or didn't have the confidence to try and make the play or whether he was just lazy. I watched him a few more times after this and, not knowing him or his ability, thought he is either lazy or has a very low fitness base.

At least we agree on one thing - that he looks like he will definitely make it now

[BigMart]

Experience = confidence = performance

Spectating can be just as much a confidence thing as a effort thing.... Opportunity and support is a requirement before self belief. Before one believes or even knows how to influence an AFL game, they must feel a sense of security and belonging...

Armitage knew he was very much a bit player at best, and it was obvious that Ross did not rate him very highly.... Same could be said for Ball, T.Lynch and a few others who felt on the outer in the Ross years...

[Moods]

Experience = confidence = performance

Spectating can be just as much a confidence thing as a effort thing.... Opportunity and support is a requirement before self belief. Before one believes or even knows how to influence an AFL game, they must feel a sense of security and belonging...

Armitage knew he was very much a bit player at best, and it was obvious that Ross did not rate him very highly.... Same could be said for Ball, T.Lynch and a few others who felt on the outer in the Ross years...

How's T. Lynch going these days?

What about our gun Irish recruit that everyone gnashed their teeth over and claimed that Lyon didn't give enough game to? If all these young blokes get a game then we have a very young, developing, terrible side....

[Con Gorozidis]

So you're saying that we should wait until blokes turn 25 to accurately assess mid fielders? You do realise that history is littered with brownlow medalists who won their medal before they turned 25? In fact off the top of my head in recent memory, Judd, Bartel, Cooney all won theirs well before they turned 25. Armo is a late bloomer for a mid fielder. Big rucks I can cop taking a few years. Mids generally start to show their wares anywhere from day dot to their 3rd year. Armo is nearly as late a bloomer as any as I can remember. When did we draft him? 06 wasn't it? or was it 07? Either way that's 5-6 seasons to get his act together. Doesn't really matter now - cos he finally has and I'm as happy as anyone that this is the case.

I know one thing - in the third 1/4 on Sat night in front of Bay 31 where I was standing I saw him sprint hard to make position right in front of me. His repeat running has been excellent this year. Rewind 4 years ago, I rarely saw him do that. As I said, it could be confidence, fitness, or a combination of both.

Obviously everyone is different. Armo didnt have a natural endurance/cardio tank and had to work it on it. For some people (like scully) they have this from day 1. I was just making the point about fans saying players dont try etc etc which can often be put down to those 3 things - fitness, confidence and strength.
Plenty of early bloomers and plenty of late bloomers out there also if you look around.

p.s speaking of early bloomers -is judd the worlds oldest 29 year old? he was 30 when he was 20. so i guess that now makes him 39?

[Moods]

So you're saying that we should wait until blokes turn 25 to accurately assess mid fielders? You do realise that history is littered with brownlow medalists who won their medal before they turned 25? In fact off the top of my head in recent memory, Judd, Bartel, Cooney all won theirs well before they turned 25. Armo is a late bloomer for a mid fielder. Big rucks I can cop taking a few years. Mids generally start to show their wares anywhere from day dot to their 3rd year. Armo is nearly as late a bloomer as any as I can remember. When did we draft him? 06 wasn't it? or was it 07? Either way that's 5-6 seasons to get his act together. Doesn't really matter now - cos he finally has and I'm as happy as anyone that this is the case.

I know one thing - in the third 1/4 on Sat night in front of Bay 31 where I was standing I saw him sprint hard to make position right in front of me. His repeat running has been excellent this year. Rewind 4 years ago, I rarely saw him do that. As I said, it could be confidence, fitness, or a combination of both.

Obviously everyone is different. Armo didnt have a natural endurance/cardio tank and had to work it on it. For some people (like scully) they have this from day 1. I was just making the point about fans saying players dont try etc etc which can often be put down to those 3 things - fitness, confidence and strength.
Plenty of early bloomers and plenty of late bloomers out there also if you look around.

p.s speaking of early bloomers -is judd the worlds oldest 29 year old? he was 30 when he was 20. so i guess that now makes him 39?

Con - to an extent I agree with you re Armo. However BigMart assures us that Armo was extremely fit endurance wise from the getgo

[Con Gorozidis]

If that's what you think P66

tough love.... He was wasting away in the VFL dominating in a slower paced game which was detrimental to his adaption to AFL.... It takes a youngn 30-60 games to get used to the pace of AFL footy and only after that are they going to be a consistent performer...

His use as a stationary defensive small forward last season was ridiculous....

Ross was/is a very poor player devoper as a coach..... But game day tactically is strong.....

Which kids really blossomed under him???

tough love. the same tough love that had eddy play 3 gfs and mcqualter play 100 games - often without touching the ball?
the same "tough" approach at the trade table that saw us get NOTHING for ball but was touted by some disciples as "standing his ground". yeah real smart bloke that RL.

[markp]

What a shame he wasn't flogged from day 1 like Ball was.

Steven too.

That they are now blooming in spite of this neglect is astonishing.

[elvis lives]

I love how we see players blooming under a new coach, having previously been coached by R Lyon, Armo and ball in particular, and there are people on here that actually beleive it is that the player's attitude has miraculously changed overnight through no influence of the coach. and that then use this argument to justfiy Ross not playing and not rating them. The proof is clearly in the pudding people. Under Watters Armo has turned into a very very good player and Malthouse managed to get 100% better output from luke ball. those are the facts. How you can say this doesn't refelct badly on R Lyon is beyond me. Surely it is his job to get the best out of players, and others have succeeded where he failed.

[plugger66]

I love how we see players blooming under a new coach, having previously been coached by R Lyon, Armo and ball in particular, and there are people on here that actually beleive it is that the player's attitude has miraculously changed overnight through no influence of the coach. and that then use this argument to justfiy Ross not playing and not rating them. The proof is clearly in the pudding people. Under Watters Armo has turned into a very very good player and Malthouse managed to get 100% better output from luke ball. those are the facts. How you can say this doesn't refelct badly on R Lyon is beyond me. Surely it is his job to get the best out of players, and others have succeeded where he failed.

We must have been the greatest side in the history of any sport to win 19 in a row under a coach that failed with his players. The rewriting of history is amazing.

[Moods]

I love how we see players blooming under a new coach, having previously been coached by R Lyon, Armo and ball in particular, and there are people on here that actually beleive it is that the player's attitude has miraculously changed overnight through no influence of the coach. and that then use this argument to justfiy Ross not playing and not rating them. The proof is clearly in the pudding people. Under Watters Armo has turned into a very very good player and Malthouse managed to get 100% better output from luke ball. those are the facts. How you can say this doesn't refelct badly on R Lyon is beyond me. Surely it is his job to get the best out of players, and others have succeeded where he failed.

Zac Dawson, farren Ray, . For every two that left and made a success of themselves elsewhere there is two that played under Ross and ressurected (sic) their careers. Just because Armo enjoys playing under Watters more than Ross doesn't mean that Ross was a poor coach. I guess Malthouse must have been a dud because Heath Scotland blossomed at Carlton?

[St DAC]

have to agree with you here......imho....lyin cost us one and possibly two premierships with his handling of armo and to a lesser degree, steven and geary

Crikey! That's a mighty big call right there ... exactly which 2 years would that have been? And who would they have displaced?

Maybe, just maybe Geary for Eddy in 2009 ... but I can't think of another swap at all. And the 2009 Geary was not the 2012 Geary, who has been very good indeed.

[BigMart]

Ball played half a VFL game in his first year.....

Ball was Runner up B&F at 20and B&F at 21...... Should he have not played seniors in those years????