Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402412Post HitTheBoundary »

BigMart wrote:most of their supporters I spoke to recently had one word to say..... Thanks!
A mate of mine is a mad Hawthorn supporter, he wrote me this;

"I really rate Savage (the Noble Park Frenchman: Savaaaj), but don't blame him after being left out of 2 finals series. Tough, fast, and kicks nice long running goals. He'll go well I have no doubt.
Absolute bottom line for Hawthorn though: with no 1st ruck we'd have no chance next year- and there would be 6 clubs who wouldn't trade us one for that exact reason. So I think it might be win/win, and glad it's done early. "


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402414Post BigMart »

So Pelchin is above Watters

I don't think so?


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402415Post gringo »

BigMart wrote:Bulls**t

And pick 18 could be nothing.... Or Daniel Kerr?? Risky business.... Savage a know quantity, behind Hill, Bruest and Anderson?

Reality is... Believe it or not
Pick 9 + six year development is now pick 18?

Pick 24 for Pick 37

Pick 13 for pick 43

All the spin in the world doesn't change the fact we have traded down.... Either bad recruiting or bad trading or bad development... Which is it?

That just is so illogical. Does that mean if we traded sam Fisher at his peak for pick 30 we would have won? Just because you draft a player at a certain pick it doesn't mean he is worth that again.

I could buy shares and in ten years it could be worth heaps or less than I paid. Players are the same. Savage is a late pick but a good player. Tambling and Jordan Russell should be worth two top 10 picks, we should hurry before they get a job at coles.

To me Big mac is a developing ruck but no star. Savage is a developing mid and probably slightly ahead in quality of output but plays an easier to find role. We win as Ben doesn't suit our game style these days and Savage does. hawks win because they just need a ruck that doesn't get injured walking to his car.


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402417Post gringo »

BigMart wrote:So Pelchin is above Watters

I don't think so?

Uh yeah,

that was apparently why Ross Lyon couldn't stay according to Paul Roos. Pelchen was put in as his boss.


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402423Post BigMart »

The Senior Coach should always be the main man.... He has the most pressure, the biggest wage, the most impact, the biggest role......

The tail should never wag the dog? When a coach interviews, he sets out the plan.... He must have the ultimate power? And input in all areas....


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402426Post BigMart »

Btw

WTF has Sam Fisher got to do with trading down picks after 2-6 years of development?

Cripps, Lynch, McEvoy were not 30yo??


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402428Post Eastern »

BigMart wrote:So Pelchin is above Watters

I don't think so?

Chris Pelchin & Andrew Thompson are in charge of the FOOTBALL DEPARTMENT REVIEW. Chris Pelchin is HEAD OF FOOTBALL, meaning he is Scott Watters boss !!


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402463Post bergholt »

BigMart wrote:The Senior Coach should always be the main man.... He has the most pressure, the biggest wage, the most impact, the biggest role......

The tail should never wag the dog? When a coach interviews, he sets out the plan.... He must have the ultimate power? And input in all areas....
Is this based on your experience running large organisations?


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402470Post derby Street »

Eastern wrote:
BigMart wrote:So Pelchin is above Watters

I don't think so?

Chris Pelchin & Andrew Thompson are in charge of the FOOTBALL DEPARTMENT REVIEW. Chris Pelchin is HEAD OF FOOTBALL, meaning he is Scott Watters boss !!
Well Big Mouth .. sorry Big Mart - is C.P the boss of S.W or not ? Or are you still saying "you don't think so "


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402476Post joffaboy »

derby Street wrote:
Eastern wrote:
BigMart wrote:So Pelchin is above Watters

I don't think so?

Chris Pelchin & Andrew Thompson are in charge of the FOOTBALL DEPARTMENT REVIEW. Chris Pelchin is HEAD OF FOOTBALL, meaning he is Scott Watters boss !!
Well Big Mouth .. sorry Big Mart - is C.P the boss of S.W or not ? Or are you still saying "you don't think so "
BM wouldn't have a clue about organisational structure, he works in a high school. How would how would he have a clue?


Lance or James??

There comes a point in every man's life when he has to say, "Enough is enough." For me, that time is now. I have been dealing with claims that I cheated and had an unfair advantage in <redacted>. Over the past three years, I have been subjected to a <redacted>investigation followed by <redacted> witch hunt. The toll this has taken on my family, and my work for <redacted>and on me leads me to where I am today – finished with this nonsense. (Oops just got a spontaneous errection <unredacted>)
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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402480Post saintbrat »

Eastern wrote:
BigMart wrote:So Pelchin is above Watters

I don't think so?

Chris Pelchin & Andrew Thompson are in charge of the FOOTBALL DEPARTMENT REVIEW. Chris Pelchin is HEAD OF FOOTBALL, meaning he is Scott Watters boss !!

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl ... 6738565668


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402484Post gringo »

joffaboy wrote:
derby Street wrote:
Eastern wrote:

Chris Pelchin & Andrew Thompson are in charge of the FOOTBALL DEPARTMENT REVIEW. Chris Pelchin is HEAD OF FOOTBALL, meaning he is Scott Watters boss !!
Well Big Mouth .. sorry Big Mart - is C.P the boss of S.W or not ? Or are you still saying "you don't think so "
BM wouldn't have a clue about organisational structure, he works in a high school. How would how would he have a clue?

I have this mental image of a school principal telling the education minister to suck his b$#@s because he's the man. Most jobs have hierarchy if the coach was the big boss he could sack the board and the ceo when they gave him the s***s.


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402507Post saintbrat »

saintbrat wrote:
Eastern wrote:
BigMart wrote:So Pelchin is above Watters

I don't think so?

Chris Pelchin & Andrew Thompson are in charge of the FOOTBALL DEPARTMENT REVIEW. Chris Pelchin is HEAD OF FOOTBALL, meaning he is Scott Watters boss !!

http://www.couriermail.com.au/sport/afl ... 6738565668

for sure some will say the saints have taken the easy way out-- and avoided the issues--- that some in the media apppear to see as issues anyway-- as sugested by me and others - wouldn't matter what the saints say or do many including some ' supporters' will find it is wrong......


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402524Post BigMart »

So Gringo

You've just compared a school principal to an Ed Minister who looks after the system....

Wouldn't that be more like comparing SW and Andrew Demetriou? Weird analogy??

Interesting take

Not sure how a school hierarchy is too different to most companies.... CEO runs the company in StK case Nettlefold.... He employs people to be in charge of certain areas... They run the areas.... If they do a good job, the get rewarded for their performance, if they don't they get reviewed and/or sacked

SW is the senior Coach.... His job is to set the direction of the onfield performance and its his responsibility, if he doesn't oversee all onfield matters.... How can he effectively do his job??

What if his game plan is not in synch with list make up? Are you suggesting Pelchin tells Watters what to do?


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402527Post bergholt »

BigMart wrote:What if his game plan is not in synch with list make up? Are you suggesting Pelchin tells Watters what to do?
I don't tell my employees what to do. That's called micromanagement. I tell them what they should be aiming for and let them decide how to achieve it. If they don't achieve it then they leave and someone else comes in who can. I assume that's what Pelchen does.


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402528Post saintly »

BigMart wrote:What proof of results dowe have? To laud their performance?

Admittedly They changed strategy mid 2013?

How can either of the last couple of years be determined successful ATM? Too early to tell, just opinion....
Last year Saad and Milera were a master stroke.... This year they were both limited players at Sandy? Early to judge again!

Every neutral supporter believes Hawthorn were the beneficiaries, most of their supporters I spoke to recently had one word to say..... Thanks!

The amount of times I heard a student or mate say 'big boy' and what the hell is going on at Seaford has been a joke!

However
The aggressive strategy is probably needed... But it also needs to be smart...

We were aggressive in 2000... And hit and miss with 18 list changes in two years....
from what I remember, Pelchen came on board and then I think last year had a day or weekend long strategy session and I assume it was then the plan was built.


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402533Post gringo »

BigMart wrote:So Gringo

You've just compared a school principal to an Ed Minister who looks after the system....

Wouldn't that be more like comparing SW and Andrew Demetriou? Weird analogy??

Interesting take

Not sure how a school hierarchy is too different to most companies.... CEO runs the company in StK case Nettlefold.... He employs people to be in charge of certain areas... They run the areas.... If they do a good job, the get rewarded for their performance, if they don't they get reviewed and/or sacked

SW is the senior Coach.... His job is to set the direction of the onfield performance and its his responsibility, if he doesn't oversee all onfield matters.... How can he effectively do his job??

What if his game plan is not in synch with list make up? Are you suggesting Pelchin tells Watters what to do?

Was a bit over the top but it still has the same point. Even the senior coach has bosses he's no lone wolf with total control.


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402565Post BigMart »

Of course he has a boss....

The CEO of the company...... If we don't improve next year.... Who goes, Pelchin or Watters... Who is responsible for onfield performance??

Managing the list, is a bit different to determining the list

Wage profiling, talent scouting, advising coaching staff, testing, free agency scouting, age profiling of list
All in accord with the plan SET by the senior coach.... Who is in charge of On Field results....

He should be collaborative, he should empower, he should be open to suggestion, he should support
But
He must be the leader

WTF do people think Pelchin is running the joint.... In olden day speak he is the recruiting manager.... Like JB was in the 90's


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402568Post gringo »

BigMart wrote:Of course he has a boss....

The CEO of the company...... If we don't improve next year.... Who goes, Pelchin or Watters... Who is responsible for onfield performance??

Managing the list, is a bit different to determining the list

Wage profiling, talent scouting, advising coaching staff, testing, free agency scouting, age profiling of list
All in accord with the plan SET by the senior coach.... Who is in charge of On Field results....

He should be collaborative, he should empower, he should be open to suggestion, he should support
But
He must be the leader

WTF do people think Pelchin is running the joint.... In olden day speak he is the recruiting manager.... Like JB was in the 90's
No more like Neil Balme at Geelong. It's the manager of all the football department. Much more scope than a recruiting manager. Overseer of most of the football department and a strategist.


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402583Post BigMart »

Greg Hutchinson was football manager..... Really they manage communication, logistics, and all football dept staff (inc Pelchin).... Report to the board and CEO about football related issues....

Isn't that the role Balme plays.... And btw I didn't realise StK had employed someone to oversee the coach... No wonder Ross wanted out.... I think it's bizarre....

Who has that role at other clubs?

Hawthorn, Sydney, Carlton??


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402592Post Con Gorozidis »

BigMart wrote:Greg Hutchinson was football manager..... Really they manage communication, logistics, and all football dept staff (inc Pelchin).... Report to the board and CEO about football related issues....

Isn't that the role Balme plays.... And btw I didn't realise StK had employed someone to oversee the coach... No wonder Ross wanted out.... I think it's bizarre....

Who has that role at other clubs?

Hawthorn, Sydney, Carlton??
They are all similar

It aint just Lyon and Pelchen and the Saints.

Swans have Dean Moore (and also Peter Berbakov )
The Pies had Geoff Walsh -
The Hawks have Chris Fagan (and had James Fantasia for 3 months)
Bombers had Bomber

Dunno if they 'oversee' the coach.


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402594Post groupie1 »

lloyd21 wrote:Not if you listen to Tony Jones on channel 9 just bagged Stkilda again saying leaving Dal Santo in limbo had a week our minds up give me a break.

What about Shaw at the filth What about Polec. What about Yeo What about Longer What about Polkinghorn
What about Delaney What about Grant What about Chapman All these clubs have not done their deals.
What about question marks?


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402641Post bergholt »

BigMart wrote:Of course he has a boss....

The CEO of the company...... If we don't improve next year.... Who goes, Pelchin or Watters... Who is responsible for onfield performance??
If we don't improve next year then no one goes, because the club realises that it's going to take another couple of years of being s*** before we can start to rise from the ashes.
BigMart wrote:Managing the list, is a bit different to determining the list

Wage profiling, talent scouting, advising coaching staff, testing, free agency scouting, age profiling of list
All in accord with the plan SET by the senior coach.... Who is in charge of On Field results....

He should be collaborative, he should empower, he should be open to suggestion, he should support
But
He must be the leader

WTF do people think Pelchin is running the joint.... In olden day speak he is the recruiting manager.... Like JB was in the 90's
Mart, I love you, but on this one you're really talking out of your arse.

You have no idea about how to run a big team. That's fine, we can't all have experience in every area of life. But let's not pretend that you're some sort of expert on this and therefore you somehow know exactly how it is or should be.

Pelchen is Head of Football. In that role he's responsible for everything in the football department, from on-field performance to recruiting to training to logistics to human resources.

He has probably seven direct reports:
- Head Coach (Watters)
- General Manager - Player List and Legal Affairs (Bains)
- Player Welfare Manager (Tony Brown)
- High Performance Manager (Davoren)
- Sports Science Manager (Simon Kearney)
- Recruiting Manager (Elshaugh)
- Logistics Manager (Peter Maddern)

Maybe some others, but I think that's probably pretty close. On the other hand, the Head Coach's direct reports are probably:
- Assistant Coach (Offensive) (Kingsley)
- Assistant Coach (Midfield) (Laidley)
- Assistant Coach (Defensive) (Sexton)
- Assistant Coach / Academy Manager (Micale)
- Specialist Coach (Hamill)
- Opposition Analyst (Paul O'Connell)

Watters doesn't and shouldn't concern himself with the specifics of the contracts, with what the high performance guys do, with which hotels the team is staying in, with how many recruiting guys we have and where they are on a weekly basis, etc. All of that and more is on Pelchen's plate and he needs to stay on top of it. He brings it all together and makes sure Watters has what he needs to do his job properly.

But ultimately, Pelchen is the one managing the whole process. He's the one saying to the Board: "this is the plan and this is how we're going to go about achieving it". He then puts the pieces in place, including the Head Coach, to make that happen. Watters obviously has some input into everything else that happens, but ultimately the pieces are put in front of him and he makes the best he can of them.

The reason it works this way is because the Coach is an ephemeral role. He might last a couple of years, maybe if we're lucky more like five or six, but essentially he'll be gone well before all the football department's plans are complete. So to counter any "Key Man risk" all of the accumulated planning, knowledge and wisdom for the department has to be external to the Head Coach role. That's where Pelchen comes in.

I know it's complex if you haven't been involved in large organisations. But I guarantee you that's the way it is.


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402647Post BackFromUSA »

True Believer wrote:
BigMart wrote:Why, because I don't believe everything done recently is brilliant!

Going on the state of
Finances
Results
List make up

I wouldn't consider StK FC in great shape ATM

Would I be right or wrong for saying that?
The finances are s*** again , but that's no biggie. The results are what you would expect from playing kids all year. They will be crap again next year too. The list make up is very much headed in the right direction in my opinion. The plan that has been outlined is logical and numbers based and has delivered flags to two previous clubs where it has been instigated. We've been much worse off than this, and much better off than this, but the foundation that is currently being put in place is better than anything we put in place before - we have a focus on, and resources for, the development of young players. We have a set criteria and plan for the recruitment of players, we are trying to build a quality, balanced team, to a plan. We've previously relied on landing enough superstar players to have a shot at a flag. This is better.
100% agree


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Re: Saints gaining RESPECT due to Bains and Pelchen

Post: # 1402664Post BigMart »

How did we get to that point?

And Bergholt

Agree on most of the breakdown.... And yes he would manage and report to the board on all of those areas.... But he would or should not be dictating to them... He is not ultimately responsible? Otherwise that renders SW a half coach?

Watters got the senior job with a presentation
It would not have been that I will put into place Chris Pelchins plan and try to carry it out?

Question is, how much power has Pelchin got at StKilda? And why...

Who is in that position at Freo, Sydney, Hawthorn??

Balme is the footy manager, similarly to what Hutchinson was... He's not in charge of onfield footy matters...

He should not be setting the PLAN and suggesting to the senior coach, this is how you make it happen?! He never did that with Clarkson or Chocolates and neither would cop it?

He might oversee what is happening, report to the board on all areas across the club wrt to footy
Doubtful he sets the agenda

Btw
Not sure why those love to have a shot at me about wrt

Been in education for many years and people are of the assumption I am a teacher still (seems to fascinate some posters, there is another side to me beyond stk tragic) I hinted many times that I do little or no teaching nowadays... Ran a senior school of 700 for 6 years and now responsible for a fair bit more, including staffing, curriculum and Facilities.
Not completely foreign on leading teams, involved with at least 8 teams daily along with 1200 students and 100 staff....also coached a cricket club with 6 teams for ten years... I'm no different to many on here, I have a job?!
Management and leadership are different in some respects, and although distributive leadership is very much invogue and it can be very effective ..... The Romans paved the way 3000 years ago IMO and the hallmarks of a great organisation are simply organisation, structure, communcation, resources and logistics.... Maybe it's my defense force background but IMO those with the most responsibility call the shots?

Anyway
It seems Pelchin was being reviewed... Not doing a review on SW


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