Amazing parallels with Docker fans

[thejiggingsaint]

I have no problem in "acknowledging that feat" Spinner. The point of my OP was to show the similarities that exist with all footy supporters, although my point made have been made clumsily. Lyon has the runs on the board as a coach, whether or not his sides play an attractive brand of football is a matter of personal opinion, after all, the whole sport is results- driven, and here Lyon is a winner.

[samuraisaint]

Maybe I am in the minority here, but I don't think about Freo at all. At the moment my concern rests firmly and singularly with the Saints. Absolutely shattered to go down like that on Anzac Day. Although I would still be concerned if we had won, the fact we lost to the bottom side at a venue they had never played at before, and were unable to penetrate the defence of a side who have more holes than swiss cheese. 11 goals. 11GOALS - against the bottom side!?! But how
many times this year have we been able to kick fourteen goals? Once - against GWS The only golden lining on this is that it could possibly mean that we are in line for a bottom three finish again this year and the best key forward in the land.)
The black cloud within that lining is just how much we rely on Riewoldt to kick our score. I mean Jones was our highest goalkicker on a small ground. Where are Stanley and the others? Pelchen and the recruiters better get this right or we are really going to struggle to score AT ALL after 2015, when Roo, Schneider and Joey have all hung up the boots.
The recruiting at the club was poor from 2004 onwards and started with, I beleive, the recruitment of Barry Brooks with our first draft pick, and went downhill from there.
As the majority of this decay of our playing list happened under Lyon's watch I am not that concerned with what he is doing right now, but how the club sort out this mess.

[samuraisaint]

Sorry, for errors of grammar and basic punctuation in the post above - tried to edit for correction, but editing function doesn't seem to work. Apologies in advance for illiteracy of syntax.

[Teflon]

Ross is an intelligent man, and extremely adept at AFL tactics. I am highly doubtful he is one-dimensional in a negative sense. His game plan transforms teams into the best in competition and regularly gets them into grand finals. The fact that he hasn't won one yet is partly due to simple bad luck and the fact that he's come up against even better opposition.

To call a game plan a failure despite it's constant success is ridiculous. I wonder how many other coaches in the league wouldn't mind having a plan that all but guaranteed top 4?

If he believes the plan needs to be tweaked, or changed completely, then I am certain he could do it.

Agreed.

They play finals brand of football every week.

Freo the hardest job in football - Completely transformed in under 2 years. It worries me how people have difficulties acknowledging this feat.

Perhaps Spinner

No one doubts Ross's ability to get a team to play for him. Players do
But let's not forget Freo acknowledged by many had done some hard developing years under the walking cabbage in M Harvey and were ripe for a top match day coach

To be a great coach IMO Lyon needs 2 things:

1. A flag
2. Take a list, develop them and then win a flag

Great coaches like Malthouse have done both.

[BigMart]

He's won nothing.... So at this point.... 8 years as a coach. No flags.

N. Daniher coached about ten....

Which ready made team for him next

Btw
I think he is a great coach.... With one downfall... He doesn't trust talent

[Scollop]

I worry about his relationship with Zac Dawson, and whether it could be seen as unhealthy

He also smiled a lot when speaking about Nick Dal Santo in the after match presser

[stinger]

I was gutted at the result of our game yesterday evening. I ambled through to the lounge, to watch the Freo V North game, and while I KNOW it could be seen as twisted, found the "silver lining" with the Fremantle display Now, I know that nobody should rejoice in someone else's pain, but it was "pleasing" to see RL in that last quarter. North were well deserving of the win, particularly over at Subi. I then surfed to the "Dockerland" fan forum to see the reactions of their fans to the result. I'd never be rude enough to troll another fan forum, but it was just an interesting exercise to see how their supporters would deal with the situation of being red hot favourites for back-to-back Grand Finals, and having back-to-back defeats! (with a firm down-payment on a third next week!) and a top four spot now being something less than a "given". I was amazed at how similar some of the posts were to those posted here on Saintsational during the Ross Lyon era. Plenty of whingeing about the game plan, the emphasis on defending, how "predictable" the Dockers are, the reliance on a superstar forward (Pavlich). One of the most telling posts spoke of the "recruiting" and the state of the list!
Sound familiar folks? I guess my take from all this is to discover just how much football followers have in common when it comes to talking about their team!

The only common thread there is lyin.......serves them right....they can rot in hell faic

[stinger]

I don't really think there is a difference in any supporters really. When any team loses a game they should win the fans all jump up and down about the coach or players. It's just pleasing that it is happening to Ro$$ Lyin.

i loved the saints freo game last year.......and i actually loved seeing all the freo supporters sitting around me disappearing in their droves at and just after half time....no sympathy for them from me......ever.....hope their coach goes down in history as one of the biggest failures in the game.....

[stinger]

I worry about his relationship with Zac Dawson, and whether it could be seen as unhealthy

...yep....not that there is anything wrong with that.....

[stinger]

anyway this is an inappropriate placefor this discussion....thread should be moved to the opposition forum...

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=85365&p=1455379#p1455379

[Sainternist]

I gotta say, Freo have all the makings to become WA's version of St Kilda FC. It also took them almost 20 years to play in their first GF.

Dockerland seems to be a parallel online universe to our own Saintsational.

[Johnny Member]

Ross is an intelligent man, and extremely adept at AFL tactics. I am highly doubtful he is one-dimensional in a negative sense. His game plan transforms teams into the best in competition and regularly gets them into grand finals. The fact that he hasn't won one yet is partly due to simple bad luck and the fact that he's come up against even better opposition.

If his game plan transforms his team into the best, how is that they keep coming up against better opposition in Grand Finals?

If you're the best, you win. Especially after 4 shots at it against 3 different clubs.

His game plan at two different clubs, has not been able to kick a winning score in Grand Finals. And it can't be forgotten either that in Prelims they've also struggled to kick a score and could easily be argued that if not for some controversial free kicks against Geelong and the Bulldogs, with some superhuman efforts from Riewoldt - he wouldn't have even made the first 2 GFs. So it's a bit rich to blame for losing the GFs, when a good dose of luck got him there in the first place!

To call a game plan a failure despite it's constant success is ridiculous. I wonder how many other coaches in the league wouldn't mind having a plan that all but guaranteed top 4?

I don't agree with that at all.

No one is employed not to win Grand Finals. Only the ultimate in selfish coaches and/or footballers would be content to remain employed by making the top 4 each year - without having a chance of winning the flag. Every team that has come close but not won one, acknowledges their weaknesses and rolls the dice to go one better. They don't think 'well, theoretically we made the GF so if we just stay the same we should make it again'. They try to improve. This often means taking the risk that you may drop down in your efforts to improve. Like changing the reliance on one player for example, sacrificing a goal or two defensively in order to improve your own offence. Playing a bloke like Jack Riewoldt up the ground for the benefit of the team long term as opposed to the goal square for short term reward etc. etc.

Finally, Lyon admitted/acknowledged after the last GF loss that they need to find more goals. 2 more he said.

If he believes the plan needs to be tweaked, or changed completely, then I am certain he could do it.

He has admitted it needs to happen.

I don't know why it took him 3 GF losses to come to that conclusion, when most saw it after the 1st loss. But anyway, he's finally seen it. So now I assume he's trying to do it.

And one of 4 things is happening in the process:

1) He isn't capable of changing it
2) The players are struggling to change - and to be fair it's only 6 weeks in so that wouldn't be too unusual
3) The players are tired after being 'manic' for 4 quarters for over 2 years and just can't defend as hard as they did
4) Teams are working them out


If it's 1, 3 or 4 - they're stuffed and what plenty of Saints fans have believed for sometime is true.

If it's 2, then they could still come good and be very dangerous again.



For what it's worth, I wouldn't be surprised if it's a combination of all 4 plus the fact that his superstar spine is a year older. He's had some absolute stars of the game at his disposal at two clubs. He, more than most coaches absolutely relies on his stars to dominate. He can then allow a big chunk of the team to be just focus on manic defense and be 'role players'.

[magnifisaint]

Really who gives a flying rats toss bag about Dorker supporters. Really don't care how much bickering they do. They're a sheet football club.

[Johnny Member]

Ross is an intelligent man, and extremely adept at AFL tactics. I am highly doubtful he is one-dimensional in a negative sense. His game plan transforms teams into the best in competition and regularly gets them into grand finals. The fact that he hasn't won one yet is partly due to simple bad luck and the fact that he's come up against even better opposition.

To call a game plan a failure despite it's constant success is ridiculous. I wonder how many other coaches in the league wouldn't mind having a plan that all but guaranteed top 4?

If he believes the plan needs to be tweaked, or changed completely, then I am certain he could do it.

Agreed.

They play finals brand of football every week.

Freo the hardest job in football - Completely transformed in under 2 years. It worries me how people have difficulties acknowledging this feat.

I have 'difficulty' acknowledging it, as you put it, because I don't believe it's true.


Freo, at this stage, are nothing more than another team to lose a GF. Another team with amazing talent, that haven't won anything.

Lyon can definitely coach a team to win lots of H&A matches and defend brilliantly - that's a fact. But it's also a fact that he also coaches teams that can't kick scores on Grand Final day. If he's going to take credit for everything else, and if you're going to give him that credit - you surely need to cop the blame also for the constant failures.

[Johnny Member]

For what it's worth, I think Lyon burns his layers out mentally. He does the reverse psyche on them.

His mantra is pressure. Put pressure on your opposition and they will make mistakes. I've heard him and his players at both clubs mention that regularly.


I think it has the reverse effect that when his players are nder pressure on the big stage, it gets to them more than others because it's drilled into them so hard and so often that pressure makes you make mistakes!

[FQF]

Fair comments Johnny. A few comments I'll add:

Lyon is surely not content with his GF losses, but he believes in his philosophy and it has come incredibly close. Yes, he hasn't won one, but it is arguable that the teams he coached would not have gotten into a GF in the first place with a standard run-of-the-mill attacking minded coach.

I strongly believe in Lyon's ability to coach a team to any plan because a) he clearly has a very deep understanding of the game b) he has a proven track record of getting buy-in, which is half the battle c) I won't forget an interview Kosi gave last year about how Ross could have the team playing any style he wanted, he was such a good communicator.

I'm not really convinced why Grand Final footy requires a different style. Yes, you're playing against the very best opposition, but Ross's game has been able to beat the best opposition during the H&A season. What else is the difference? More pressure, more intensity? I don't see why that should change the style. I know everyone talks endlessly about this distinction, but I'm yet to see if it really exists.

[Moods]

I will only add this - how many ppl on here truly believed that the Dockers were going to play off for the GF last year? How many ppl tryly thought they were capable of beating the cats at Kardinia?

How many truly believed that the Saints would beat the Cats in the 2010 Qual final? Certainly very few in the media did. In both years the expectation was that Piesvcats and Hawksvcats would play off. Cats finished H&A season each of those seasons 2nd.

How many genuine upsets have their been in GF's over the last 30yrs? (How many genuine upsets in finals have their been at all?) Big finals I mean, not some elim final that the AFL use to fill their coffers with. A game won by the underdog (rated by the bookies, NOT the supporters) I can think of one standout game - that being 08. 04 possibly with Port. 01 Possibly with Lions. And then back to 97,98 with the Saints and Kangas. 09 wouldn't have been a huge surprise if we had won, however we were well and truly the underdog with the bookies that day if I recall.

My point is rarely does the best team in it lose the GF. The fact that the Cats lost 08, lost surprisingly in 2010 Qual final and lost again in Qual final last year say one thing. They are bloody hard to win regardless of how good you are. The common theme is that you have to keep presenting each year, and who knows what will happen.

[Beekay]

Swans beating the Hawks?

[Moods]

Swans beating the Hawks?

True

[st_Trav_ofWA]

heres the way i see it ... in 2009 Ross coached a dominant St Kilda to a grand final we lost that granny but quickly became the "hunted" in 2010 we suffered injurys and we sufferd some defeats but in the end we did just enough to get us into the top four.. and in the finals we hit our straps to make it within a good bounce of winning the damn thing.. the parrallels are uncanny .. in 2013 Freo were the dominant team they came up against the equally dominant team in the granny and fell short .. this year they have been hit with injury early and have had some lapses of form to see them drop some winnable games ... in my opinion Lyon has his dockers doing just enough to some what float under the radar .. let Geelong and Hawthorn take the spotlight as flag favs (much like Geelong and Collingwood in 2010) ill expect Freo to just quietly go about their business sting a few wins together get to the top four then unleash everything they have at going that one step further ...

in my opinion Freo are a mirror of St Kilda in 2009-2010 (albeit a slightly lesser version in my opinion)
they have the dominant forward Pav (Roo)
the nippy small forward Ballantyne (Milne)
the blue chip midfielders Barlow Hill Mundy (Dal , Joey ,Lenny)
the important attacking defender Johnson (Goddard)
the unrelenting tagger Crowley (Baker and then Jones)
the solid ever reliable CHB McPharlin (Fisher)
the gumby full back who does just enough to get the job done Dawson (Dawson)
the token guy with interesting hair Muzungu (Gwilt)
the player who never lived up to expectation at the first club but re-invented themselves at the new club - Pierce (Ray)
a glut of role players Spur, Duffield, Sutcliffe, de Boer, Suban (Blake, Jones, Eddy, Peake, McQualter)

[FQF]

Think our topline players are overall better than their topliners but their role players are better than ours.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Think our topline players are overall better than their topliners but their role players are better than ours.

for sure our bottom 6 would make their bottom 6 look like all australians ... but our top 6 Roo Lenny BJ Dal Joey & Fisher at their peak is better than Pav Johnson Barlow Hill Mundy & McPharlin ... where Fro have us i think is in the guys like Fyfe Mayne and Sandi .. we had Gardy who was great but not anywhere as dominant as Sandi ... Fyfe and Mayne are a big improvment on Shnieder and Kosi

[stevie]

I said it the other week and will repeat it - our 2009 team would destroy this Freo team.

[gringo]

This could be like our 2010 where they look a bit less than last year but still seem to charge forward at the right time.

[lloyd21]

Ross is an intelligent man, and extremely adept at AFL tactics. I am highly doubtful he is one-dimensional in a negative sense. His game plan transforms teams into the best in competition and regularly gets them into grand finals. The fact that he hasn't won one yet is partly due to simple bad luck and the fact that he's come up against even better opposition.

To call a game plan a failure despite it's constant success is ridiculous. I wonder how many other coaches in the league wouldn't mind having a plan that all but guaranteed top 4?

If he believes the plan needs to be tweaked, or changed completely, then I am certain he could do it.

Agreed.

They play finals brand of football every week.

Freo the hardest job in football - Completely transformed in under 2 years. It worries me how people have difficulties acknowledging this feat.

Perhaps Spinner

No one doubts Ross's ability to get a team to play for him. Players do
But let's not forget Freo acknowledged by many had done some hard developing years under the walking cabbage in M Harvey and were ripe for a top match day coach

To be a great coach IMO Lyon needs 2 things:

1. A flag
2. Take a list, develop them and then win a flag

Great coaches like Malthouse have done both.

Michael Malthouse was gifted a state side that was the best players in 1 state a strong football state at the time

Western Australia should have one several in a row Jakovich Sumich Worsfold McKenna Heady Gehrig Mcintosh Matera Mainwaring Chris Lewis Don Pyke Dean Kemp White Langdon Turley Brennan all guns ...

Then was gifted All Australian Ruckman and former captain of grand final side to complete Collingwood

Had the cattle . But for a bounce of the ball coaching would look only par for me