Are we playing too many oldies?

[Con Gorozidis]

It'd be easier to make excuses about losing... Perhaps no experienced players and it'd be OK to lose every game?!

Are Hawthorn, Sydney, North carrying too many senior players??
Norths best on Sat had 5 players over 28

Dempster, Fisher, Riewoldt, Montagna were amongst our best

Whilst our worst were
Gresham, McCartin, Sinclair, Dunstan

No Gilbo in our worst? Happy with his efforts?

7 disposals and 5 clangers as an unaccountable midfielder.

[Con Gorozidis]

I was thinking of starting a new thread on this topic in the AE - as it will be most likely controversial. But Mods - feel free to move this in to the AE as it will be seen by some as sacrilege and blasphemous. I am by no means the first to come up with this idea and the idea has been simmering around this forum for a couple of years now. But I thought it was a good time to raise it again.

The conspiracy theory around Scott Watters was that he pissed the older players off quite a lot which was the catalyst for his removal. I have read some posters describe this as the 'tail wagging the dog.' I do not know if this is correct. Regardless it seems to be generally well accepted that the older players werent thrilled with SW. This might simply because he couldnt coach or was a d_head. I dont know. It may also be that he didnt indulge the 'Class of 2010' as the 'almost' premiership heroes they saw themselves as.

Now my question to the forum is:

Has Richo swung the pendulum too far the other way in trying to keep the senior players on board?

Are they being over-indulged? Are they really the great leaders and role models they are pumped up as? It seems noone over 27 is droppabale. I recognise Schneids and Faz played some games at Sandy last year so the coach is clearly willing to phase some older guys out and has done so.

Roo - he still cracks tantrums when players dont pass to him even when that play results in a team goal. I'm not sure I have ever seen a Captain at another club do this? It certainly wouldnt happen at the Hawks.

Montagna - Yes his stats look great. But how often does he ignore the best option in favour of setting himself up for the old '1-2' handpass so he can get two stats for the price of one. There are plenty of times where this hurts the team's chances going forward.

Gilbert - I wont go over this again but his general performance in the last two seasons has been largely mediocre as a midfielder.

[dragit]

I'll bite con and throw a little petrol on…

Is it professional at this level for a clearly injured Nick Riewoldt to play through both round 1 against port then last week in order to combine his 300th and the maddie charity match? I know it's a sensational cause, but for 2 years running we have put it ahead of what is best for the team?

Maybe it is more important than football… I still think Nick could be part of the day, telecast, fundraising without playing in the game.

The club is bigger than the individual, unless he's a giant.

I don't think too many people have said no to Nick Riewoldt at the St Kilda FC.

[Bluthy]

It's a balancing act between having the oldies to pass on their wisdom and knowledge and tips and blooding and getting games into the youth. There is no right approach. I thought we played Schneider too much last year (after he came off the rookie list) but Richo obviously puts a big value on that sense of passing on knowledge and the "buddy system". Maybe long term we will be better off by having so many experienced guys - Rooey, Monty, Demps, Fish - to basically act as onfield and training coaches for the youngsters.

Melbourne got themselves into trouble by clearing the decks too much and having few who could set standards and pass knowledge on to the babies. Port pumped a lot of games into their young players and you wonder now if a slower burn approach would have been better. Maybe Dogs will have the same problem - they seem to have cleared out a lot of their oldies.

[dragit]

Let's be honest, if you took out Dempster, fisher, Montagna & Riewoldt we would be absolutely rooted this year...

Because of our gaping hole of talent/experience in our core player age we still need these guys to remain relatively competitive. I could see us going winless this year without those four...

[skeptic]

Let's be honest, if you took out Dempster, fisher, Montagna & Riewoldt we would be absolutely rooted this year...

Because of our gaping hole of talent/experience in our core player age we still need these guys to remain relatively competitive. I could see us going winless this year without those four...

Yes but what's wrong with say resting Dempster a week or 2 and giving a Tom Lee a go

Or perhaps dropping an under performing Sam Gilbert once in a while and giving someone else a crack.

I don't think anybody is really advocating to drop players based on age... Montagna and Fisher in particular seem to be holding their own pretty good atm. It's more for when people are playing badly and keep playing.

[Con Gorozidis]

Let's be honest, if you took out Dempster, fisher, Montagna & Riewoldt we would be absolutely rooted this year...

Because of our gaping hole of talent/experience in our core player age we still need these guys to remain relatively competitive. I could see us going winless this year without those four...

I dont disagree with that but I also think we have been saying this same thing for four years now. I am wondering if the system hasnt worked?
Why are our players in the 21-25 age group either stagnating or going backwards? That is the age group that should be having the most improvement. Besides Seb Ross - who seems to be a pet project of the coach - most in this age group have plateaued or regressed. In theory it is the guys who have 3-6 pre-seasons under their belts who should be improving rapidly and at least some of them should have become genuine guns by now. In fact - Ill go out on a limb and say we are the only club in the AFL without a bona fide gun player in the 21-25yo age category. If anyone can find another club without a star in this age group - let me know. Our closest is Newnes - but he is not a star.

[To the top]

In terms of Gilbert being "over the last 2 years in the mid-field has been largely mediocre", my recall is that we saw very little of Gilbert in both 2014 and 2015 because of injury - and when he returned very late in 2015 he was swung into the mid-field.

In 2016 we are 2 games in.

So is the quoted summary a tad harsh?

Given the problems with our defence, I would rather see Gilbert back there than Webster or Geary, neither of whom are up to the mark and never will be.

[Con Gorozidis]

In terms of Gilbert being "over the last 2 years in the mid-field has been largely mediocre", my recall is that we saw very little of Gilbert in both 2014 and 2015 because of injury - and when he returned very late in 2015 he was swung into the mid-field.

In 2016 we are 2 games in.

So is the quoted summary a tad harsh?

Given the problems with our defence, I would rather see Gilbert back there than Webster or Geary, neither of whom are up to the mark and never will be.

I dont really want this conversation to be side-tracked by arguing over Sam Gilbert because he is just one bloke and I am talking more about the bigger picture approach to how we have handled the transition of the side and the so-called 'rebuild' in general.

For what it is worth - Gilbo played 11 games in 2015.

This is how Inside Football saw it:

11 Melb Welcome return after long absence. OK but tired at the end. 5
13 WB Lined up on resting talls. Some good work marred by two terrible turnovers. 4
14 Ess Lined up in defence on Hooker and did OK. 5
15 GWS Could not contain Cameron early and well beaten. 3
16 Rich Got his hands on the ball a lot in first term, but many turnovers. 4
17 Melb Plenty of touches in first three quarters but off with quad strain late. 6
18 Groin.
19 Frem Useful game but nothing more. 5
20 NM Began well on Cunnington but then had lessened impact. 5
21 Geel Made an impact on game as a midfielder. 6
22 Syd Started in attack and not the worst. 4
23 WCE Started well enough but overrun like others. 4

In fairness, I also should add that Rd 1 2016 v Port they gave him a 7 - which was his first 7 since Rd 22 2013. So that is a +ve.

[borderbarry]

Another point to be considered is that the young players we are all looking forward to getting a run are either injured, getting over an illness, or just not in form.

[borderbarry]

Another point to be considered is that the young players we are all looking forward to getting a run are either injured, getting over an illness, or just not in form.

[Bluthy]

Let's be honest, if you took out Dempster, fisher, Montagna & Riewoldt we would be absolutely rooted this year...

Because of our gaping hole of talent/experience in our core player age we still need these guys to remain relatively competitive. I could see us going winless this year without those four...

See you say that but sometimes it can be amazing what happens when young players get handed the responsibility. They can really gel and play a more dynamic, take-it-on style. Yes you will get more errors but you also get more attacking leg speed and youthful exuberance. It's almost like when the parents go away you and your friends run around the house like mad men - sure its chaotic but also brings out a hell of a lot of energy and a new fresh approach.

[Con Gorozidis]

Another point to be considered is that the young players we are all looking forward to getting a run are either injured, getting over an illness, or just not in form.

But this is my main take home point. Why are so many of our 21 to 25 year olds 'not in form'?
If an all AFL under 25 side was picked tomorrow we wouldn't have a single player in the side.
This is a massive indictment on our program and a massive red flag that our leaders and system are no good.
The oldies have turned the place in to their personal superannuation club and the coach has indulged them.

[White Winmar]

I don't know if the theory is right, Con, but I would think there is evidence to support it. I know from someone itk, that they tried to trade Gilbert, but there were no offers. If we are to progress, we have to be bold. We're not going to make the eight this year, so let's get as many games into McKenzie, Acres, Gresham, Ross, Dunstan et. al. as we possibly can. They are the future.The handling of Tom Lee is bewildering. WE need to know if this guy can play. There was some evidence that he can be useful up forward. Whether he can defend is yet to be determined. Fisher and Dempster have been magnificent, and are still more than useful, but we are not challenging, and they need replacing in the short term. Goddard and Lee anyone?

Anyone could be forgiven for thinking we are flush for forward options, but we're not. Paddy is still developing, Bruce is still a 1/2 season hit, and Rooey, while still commanding the opposition's best defender each week, must also be replaced soon. Lee or Membrey anyone? Perhaps Brenton Payne should've been elevated rather than Holmes. Carlisle will provide immediate relief upon his return. Have you seen the vision of his eight goal game against the dogs? Do yourself a favour. Rooey to the wing or on the ball, perhaps? The time to move the trusted and valued employees into the "managed out" queue is here. It should be done with respect and sensitivity, but done, nevertheless. As for Geary, the theory holds, Con. My itk man reckons he'll get dropped after the coach dies or gets sacked.

[White Winmar]

Another point to be considered is that the young players we are all looking forward to getting a run are either injured, getting over an illness, or just not in form.

But this is my main take home point. Why are so many of our 21 to 25 year olds 'not in form'?
If an all AFL under 25 side was picked tomorrow we wouldn't have a single player in the side.
This is a massive indictment on our program and a massive red flag that our leaders and system are no good.
The oldies have turned the place in to their personal superannuation club and the coach has indulged them.

Our lack of "stand outs" in this group is my biggest worry also. A couple at least should be in that mythical 21-25 AA side. This is where we'll get hurt in the coming years unless they start developing rapidly. Newnes (good), Webster (Gilbert lite), Dunstan (good), Templeton (Unknown), Ross (maybe, should make it) et. al. Makes you realise how important the really early picks are. Apart from Billings and McCartin, we've been out in the cold, once by choice. Carlisle better be good, very quickly. Still have high hopes for Gresham, McKenzie, Acres and Dunstan. White is my "smokey". A bargain at his pick, IMHO.

[SMS]

Lets do what melbourne did. Put all the youngsters in with no guidance or protection.

Set them back 10 years.

You cant do that. Must protect the young with players like gilbert geary dempster montagna.

Otherwise theyll be bullied have nondirection and will start fighting between themselves as they get belted week in week out and no youngster wants to take direction off another youngster.

Theres a process. Relax we will one or two flags 2019-2026.

[SMS]

Yes but what's wrong with say resting Dempster a week or 2 and giving a Tom Lee a go

BECAUSE TOM LEE IS A 14 year OLD VIRGIN!!

FFS THE SO CALLED MAN GOES TO THE BARBER SAYS GIVE ME THE 14 year old haircut. He then goes to work on pranks and tinder rather than work on footy. Immensly waster talent and im pissed off he couldve been great. BUT HE HAS NO BALLS! NONE!

[dragit]

I like a man to have really big balls, a sharp navy haircut and steely glare that says "I have big balls and I use them to have manly sex quite often"

[spert]

I think it's sad to see Fischer, Dempster, Montagna, Gilbert and Roo still playing for us- and I don't mean disrespect to any of them, they have all served us greatly, but they should have all been retired or moved on by now. Some seem to think these guys are capable of the standard they once had years back, but it doesn't work that way- Roo might do his odd cameo and some heroics, but they have all lost that magic edge they once had. Right now none of the Dad's Army is a consistent, game winning player who can justify being played at 32yo or whatever, it is holding us back (says me an old guy).
I remember poor old Watters mentioning the word "rebuild", and it was like he performed a criminal act by saying so- he knew darn well that the playing list needed a good cleanout from top to bottom after Lyon's reign that didn't get us a flag, but that's history. It is time to draw a line in the sand and stuff the team with younger promising players and wear the consequences, rather than hang on to what could have been.

[degruch]

Geez...I can only imagine how much we would have lost by had the Bulldogs not been handicapped by Murphy, M Boyd, Morris and Suckling stinking it up out there...how embarrassing for them.

[Con Gorozidis]

I think I would call it cognitive dissonance. On one hand we finished 18th from 18 in 2014 (reality) - on the other we keep going on about what great 'leaders' and 'superstars' we have (fantasy). They both cant be right. If you have a decent program - you should not be finishing 18th.

[Playon]

I like a man to have really big balls, a sharp navy haircut and steely glare that says "I have big balls and I use them to have manly sex quite often"

Hell leave me out of this

[White Winmar]

I like a man to have really big balls, a sharp navy haircut and steely glare that says "I have big balls and I use them to have manly sex quite often"

Well don't stop there...........

[Myron Gaines]

If I'm being completely honest, I lack faith in our coach. His selections are bewildering as is his match day coaching. He's a one trick pony. Old school coach that hasn't evolved with the game. Another Brendan McCarthy.

[Con Gorozidis]

If I'm being completely honest, I lack faith in our coach. His selections are bewildering as is his match day coaching. He's a one trick pony. Old school coach that hasn't evolved with the game. Another Brendan McCarthy.

I havent gone that far yet but he worries me. Whenever he talks it is usually banging on about certain player's personality . He seems obsessed with personality traits which are irrelevant. Or he is banging on about effort. He never mentions ball use. You see the Eagles lose and Adam Simpson goes on and on about poor ball use. Richo seems be in denial about the importance of ball use. He goes on and on about effort, contested ball and the tackle count. None of these stats help you win games if you cant cant kick and cant handball it and turn it over all the time - even when under no pressure. This is his third year and we wouldnt get a single player in an AFL under 25 side - he should be embarrassed about this. Yet all he wants to talk about is what a great bloke Geary is off field. It is very annoying. This side will win a few games but the effort required to win them means we wont win many. We are just so inefficient in our use of energy and the ball. We seem to play frantic and high energy but dumb.