In the mix vs Tigers

[Cairnsman]

Effort is nowhere near enough.

And that's the worry many Saints fans have - is 'effort' all Richo brings to the table?

Yeah agee, effort = pressure and we've lacked it. However don't agree that Richo doesn't have an offensive system. What he hasn't had this season is all of his key forwards being available to play together which has made it difficult to execute the offensive system. When he has, it worked really well like it did against the Dees and also during big chunks of the 16 and 17 seasons when he had Bruce, Roo and Membery available.

[Scollop]

Effort is nowhere near enough.

And that's the worry many Saints fans have - is 'effort' all Richo brings to the table?

Yeah agee, effort = pressure and we've lacked it. However don't agree that Richo doesn't have an offensive system. What he hasn't had this season is all of his key forwards being available to play together which has made it difficult to execute the offensive system. When he has, it worked really well like it did against the Dees and also during big chunks of the 16 and 17 seasons when he had Bruce, Roo and Membery available.

Sorry, not meaning to be rude, but I call bs on the your statement above about the key forwards. We lost to North Melbourne in the Good Friday game and we had that structure. I'm not sure if we lost with team selection and the personnel was the issue, or if the match ups weren't right or if the game plan was the issue ( or a combination of all the above), but it certainly was not a lack of tall targets up forward.

http://www.saints.com.au/news/2018-03-2 ... on-round-2

[rodgerfox]

Effort is nowhere near enough.

And that's the worry many Saints fans have - is 'effort' all Richo brings to the table?

Yeah agee, effort = pressure and we've lacked it. However don't agree that Richo doesn't have an offensive system. What he hasn't had this season is all of his key forwards being available to play together which has made it difficult to execute the offensive system. When he has, it worked really well like it did against the Dees and also during big chunks of the 16 and 17 seasons when he had Bruce, Roo and Membery available.

Pressure is more than just effort.

Effort is trying hard. Pressure is stopping the opposition from executing their game plan and fundamental skills effectively.

How you apply pressure is what is important.


I didn't see much indication earlier in the year that the team wasn't trying. What I saw was a distinct lack of cohesion and a flawed offensive strategy that revolved almost solely on 'bombing it in' to the F50 over and over again. We did the same last year too, and had the same results.

[Cairnsman]

Effort is nowhere near enough.

And that's the worry many Saints fans have - is 'effort' all Richo brings to the table?

Yeah agee, effort = pressure and we've lacked it. However don't agree that Richo doesn't have an offensive system. What he hasn't had this season is all of his key forwards being available to play together which has made it difficult to execute the offensive system. When he has, it worked really well like it did against the Dees and also during big chunks of the 16 and 17 seasons when he had Bruce, Roo and Membery available.

Sorry, not meaning to be rude, but I call bs on the your statement above about the key forwards. We lost to North Melbourne in the Good Friday game and we had that structure. I'm not sure if we lost with team selection and the personnel was the issue, or if the match ups weren't right or if the game plan was the issue ( or a combination of all the above), but it certainly was not a lack of tall targets up forward.

http://www.saints.com.au/news/2018-03-2 ... on-round-2

No need to apologise, mine are all but opinions on a footy fan forum so no right or wrong, but I digress, I agree we did have the 3 key forwards structure for the North game, however it was game two of the the post Roo era and I would argue it was always going to take time to develop into a cohesive unit, and that probably was more about Paddy finding his groove as much as anything. For the rare games this year where that trio have played together we've also not had the mechanism into F50 working properly. So isn't it the sum of all parts needing to work at the same time?, and didn't the Melbourne game prove how good the game plan works when we get quick entry into F50 and we have 3 key targets playing well and cohesively.

It's why I've lamented over the lost development during game time this year due to injuries as it was always probably going to take some time for the forward structure to work consistently well post the Roo era.

[Cairnsman]

And speaking of the post Roo era, was it Josh or Tim that was being groomed to take on the Roo role of being the lead up forward that also works up the wings?

I think we really underestimate how much Josh's absence has unsettled team balance.

[SaintPav]

Our structures and systems were a mess for the first 6 weeks of the year. It really messed the whole season up.

[barneyboyz]

Effort is nowhere near enough.

And that's the worry many Saints fans have - is 'effort' all Richo brings to the table?

Yeah agee, effort = pressure and we've lacked it. However don't agree that Richo doesn't have an offensive system. What he hasn't had this season is all of his key forwards being available to play together which has made it difficult to execute the offensive system. When he has, it worked really well like it did against the Dees and also during big chunks of the 16 and 17 seasons when he had Bruce, Roo and Membery available.

Sorry, not meaning to be rude, but I call bs on the your statement above about the key forwards. We lost to North Melbourne in the Good Friday game and we had that structure. I'm not sure if we lost with team selection and the personnel was the issue, or if the match ups weren't right or if the game plan was the issue ( or a combination of all the above), but it certainly was not a lack of tall targets up forward.

http://www.saints.com.au/news/2018-03-2 ... on-round-2

I don't remember seeing Battle play against North (correct me if I'm wrong), and Paddy couldn't get near it (not his fault as he has always just needed a run at it). Also, Membrey had two left boots on for most of the first half of this year. So, although not totally supporting Richo, but yeah, he's had all that to deal with

[rodgerfox]

Rk	Team	K	HB	D	M	G	GA	I50	BH	T	HO	CL	CG	R50	Opponent I50s	Opponent Goals
2017	Saints	210	187.9	397.9	93.2	12.3	8.7	52.7	13.6	69.2	38.5	35.8	52	36	52.1	13.2
2018	Saints	208.8	180.7	389.4	92.8	10.2	7.1	52.2	11.7	62.2	29.1	33	57.1	36.4	54.2	13.7

So to summarise...

We had slightly more ball last year (only about 8 more touches a game) but generated the same amount of Inside 50s as this year. However last year we scored two more goals per week from those entries. That's where the issue lies. A key stat is Goal Assists - nearly two more per week last year which suggests better movement forward.

Even last year it wasn't good enough, even with Riewoldt. However his brilliance masked the issue. It's no surprise that went to s*** without him.


EDIT: We had 7 more Tackles each week last year which is 'significant' - however this only resulted in 2 less Inside 50s for our opposition, and only 0.5 less opposition Goals per week. So although the 'effort' was there in terms of tackling, you could argue that that didn't really translate into actual 'pressure'.

[Spinner]

Rk	Team	K	HB	D	M	G	GA	I50	BH	T	HO	CL	CG	R50	Opponent I50s	Opponent Goals
2017	Saints	210	187.9	397.9	93.2	12.3	8.7	52.7	13.6	69.2	38.5	35.8	52	36	52.1	13.2
2018	Saints	208.8	180.7	389.4	92.8	10.2	7.1	52.2	11.7	62.2	29.1	33	57.1	36.4	54.2	13.7

So to summarise...

We had slightly more ball last year (only about 8 more touches a game) but generated the same amount of Inside 50s as this year. However last year we scored two more goals per week from those entries. That's where the issue lies. A key stat is Goal Assists - nearly two more per week last year which suggests better movement forward.

Even last year it wasn't good enough, even with Riewoldt. However his brilliance masked the issue. It's no surprise that went to s*** without him.

Good analysis!

[saynta]

Two ins and of course two outs.

Battle and Ross to come in

Webster if unfit plus one other as the outs.

[Cairnsman]

Clearly we've been able to get it into F50 enough, it's the mechanism into F50 that's not helping, we are either bombing it or passing it to a forward that is being mauled, or because the movement is stodgy and the extra defenders have had a chance to get back and set up camp.

There's also a bit of chicken and egg about this problem IMO, a good mechanism into F50 first? or a properly functioning forward system?. In the era of intercept defenders and two way running I thought most coaches were trying to over come this with the sling shot quickly into F50. Speed kills.

RF do you have any stats that can paint a picture of 'how' we are entering F50, is it possible to measure quick entry and scoring opportunities from turnovers and pressure acts etc.? On pure optics it just looks like we stall somewhere between the mid and half forward mark of the ground, meaning we look like we can win our fair share of the stoppages and can also work it out of defence ok, then start moving out quickly but stall once we get in sight of the forward line.

Also on the issue of Roo masking the issue, was that because the team was Roo centric and he was always well covered?