Ratten

[Teflon]

Danid King: "I've been saying for 18 months StKilda have a fraudulent game plan"

My mate last night: "It's exactly what Carlton supporters complained about. He plays feel good footy no attention to defense or structures".

[Teflon]

Some sense here from BF


Footy has made a shift in style, sides move the ball around quickly which makes a tackling and pressure game completely useless. It's a progression from Richmond fast chaos ball game. It's more like a controlled chaos game where you don't spill the ball, you get it in fast and defend the ball in your forward half. Melbourne are like something in between the two.

Collingwood use the slingshot style and the Hawks are developing it with a lesser list. The Dogs and Sydney have elements or moments of it but both have more tempo control than the others. Geelong this year use fat movement but still revert to tempo controlled pace at times.

We seem to be trying to recreate a WCE/Geelong kick mark game but don't have skills and don't spread. Carlton are really good at sending the ball out in to space with precise kicking and they use work rate to get free into space knowing that their inside mid brigade will win more contests than their opposition.

To me this is 100% on the coaches. We don't have an elite list but we have a list that should be able to be competitive. At the moment we have been worked out and just don't have anything else so just get smashed. The players are playing but they're just doing a lot of work for zero results.

[samuraisaint]

When are you going to learn

It’s the team - not the coach!

Put Brett Ratten in charge of the Kangaroos they’d be 1 win

Put him in charge for f Melbourne they’d be 13 wins

Put him in charge of Stk 9 wins

We are a middling list with an average coach

Put Voss in charge of the Blues and they will still only win 8 games. Oh wait!


Better players will improve a team.

Better coaching will improve a team.


It is not just players, and it is not just coaching. And it is also not just those two factors.

It's attitude a lot of the time. Carlton haven't made the finals off their own merits since 2011. A long time waiting.
Our attitude in the last quarter improved when the game was dead, but even then we missed goals from shots that no AFL players should miss.
Our forwards should be dropped if they miss goals like that. It shouldn't be accepted.
I mean, at one point I saw our forwards being outmarked by Gardiner. Think about that for a minute.

That said, there were one or two players in the team last night, particulalrly in the midfield who shouldn't play seniors again, and wouldn't have last night except for the Covid outbreak. Just not at the standard, and when they do play, there is zero pressure in the centre. Zero.

Hannebery must come back into the seniors next week or the Eagles will roll us the way we are playing.

[SaintJohno]

It says everything that we're thinking Hannebery might be the answer.

[Sanctorum]

So all of a sudden after 8-3 we are a bottom 4 skilled side??

No, not at all "all of a sudden" Teflon, anyone that analysed the list objectively before the season kicked off, as I did, would have had to come to that conclusion.

Who picks n chooses when to give effort???

Are you seriously suggesting that it is anyone BUT the individual player that chooses when to give effort? That implies you believe this is also Ratten's fault.

Think you’re making excuses for poor coaching ..

Was poor coaching the reason only 6 players laid tackles in the first half which in essence handed the 4 points to the Bulldogs? Was the sudden revival and rush of forward entries and goals in the last quarter due to good coaching??

Bag Brett Ratten as coach as much as you like - I merely seek to empathise that without at least 10-12 core elite players, including 6 midfielders, there's not a singe coach out there that can make a silk purse out of this sow's ear. So spare the anger and "lighten up cupcake", the sun rose as usual this morning and it's a brilliant sparkling sunny day in Brisbane - "beautiful one day, perfect the next"

[older saint]

Danid King: "I've been saying for 18 months StKilda have a fraudulent game plan"

My mate last night: "It's exactly what Carlton supporters complained about. He plays feel good footy no attention to defense or structures".

Check what king said when we were 8-3 about how good we were an our pressure etc. He swings more than a bored housewife.

Not saying the plan if perfect but there is a reason no club uses him as an assistant after richmond moves him on. If champion data ever crashes he wont be able to talk

[Yorkeys]

Just watched post game message to the fans;
Used the descriptor 'embarassing". Agree.
Said there have been some hard conversations and there will be more. OK, good. Why haven't the earlier ones had a positive impact, just wondering.
Skills are poor. Check.
No tackling effort. Check.
Game was over by three quarter time. Yes, probably quarter time.
WCE will think they can beat us. D'oh.
Will try to win in Perth, and to finish with a joke "so we can still be in the race for the finals..". Good one Brett.

It seems Brett has a firm handle on the fact team is not performing very well and there will need to be discussions and an assessment of where we are at. Well we support that, good luck. Novel, like it.

What he didn't say:
we need to give the ball to Hill, (if you can find him.)
It wasn't Max's fault he can't take marks
Windhager was good under pressure - or anyone was good under pressure. Windhager, from iso, did have as many tackles as Hill, Webster and Butler though, is that right.
Paddy played well
can't blame umpiring
I know I can turn this around in another 2, maybe three years. Continue to be patient. (I suspect he wouldn't dare ask the Board or members to just be patient.)

And so it rolls.

[Vortex]

It's a crap list, especially the midfield, when a player like Gresham is who you are building a midfield around then the future looks grim. Steele is slow as a snail, he tackles lots but he's incredibly slow and looked disinterested last night and I'm now starting to wonder if he is the right choice for Captain.
Jones used to offer a little, now he is a liability.
Couch is a grunt player and you usually need one of those in the midfield but we have two many slow grunters.
Sebby has been having a good year ironically, probably his best but he isn't the future either.

The midfield is in crisis. Coaching wont fix it, recruiters can only fix the problems our midfield has.

[Life Long Saint]

To those lamenting the lack of a game plan, I say this.
Any game plan relies on two things.
1. Get your hands on the ball.
2. Execute the basic skills.

We didn't do either of those in the first three quarters last night.

Our defence actually stood up pretty well given the onslaught of entries.

When we did get the ball back, we turned it over either on the half back line or the middle of the ground. We tried to go inside and through the middle but lacked the skills to hit targets. Too often we kicked to a small bloke in an outnumber.
Let's face it, we are nowhere near as good as we think we are. Our talent is not up to scratch.
We don't have a genuine link man between defence and attack. No genuine tall target to kick to from the half back line. I think a cloned Membrey or Battle would help.

There is a good and bad thing with Higgins...He is a very smart forward. He's one of the only ones that moves and presents as a target. But he's not a target unless he's 20m in the clear. He's too small to be kicking to in a contest.
Our tall forwards , especially King don't have the same forward craft smarts as Higgins. Milne used to do the same thing but he was surrounded by genuine smart forwards.

So all of a sudden after 8-3 we are a bottom 4 skilled side??
Who picks n chooses when to give effort???
Think you’re making excuses for poor coaching ..

We have been "found out" many times this season.
Melbourne, Brisbane, Fremantle (2nd half), Essendon, and Sydney have capitalised on our poor skills.

We are still two players short of a spine. We need a reliabe CHF and CHB.
We need better players in the middle.
We lack the midfield talent the good teams have. Melbourne, Bulldogs, Brisbane, even Carlton have better talent than we do.

[B.M]

Carlton

In Voss (Coach), Curnow (inj), Docherty (inj), Hewitt (syd), Cerra (Freo),

[Teflon]

To those lamenting the lack of a game plan, I say this.
Any game plan relies on two things.
1. Get your hands on the ball.
2. Execute the basic skills.

We didn't do either of those in the first three quarters last night.

Our defence actually stood up pretty well given the onslaught of entries.

When we did get the ball back, we turned it over either on the half back line or the middle of the ground. We tried to go inside and through the middle but lacked the skills to hit targets. Too often we kicked to a small bloke in an outnumber.
Let's face it, we are nowhere near as good as we think we are. Our talent is not up to scratch.
We don't have a genuine link man between defence and attack. No genuine tall target to kick to from the half back line. I think a cloned Membrey or Battle would help.

There is a good and bad thing with Higgins...He is a very smart forward. He's one of the only ones that moves and presents as a target. But he's not a target unless he's 20m in the clear. He's too small to be kicking to in a contest.
Our tall forwards , especially King don't have the same forward craft smarts as Higgins. Milne used to do the same thing but he was surrounded by genuine smart forwards.

So all of a sudden after 8-3 we are a bottom 4 skilled side??
Who picks n chooses when to give effort???
Think you’re making excuses for poor coaching ..

We have been "found out" many times this season.
Melbourne, Brisbane, Fremantle (2nd half), Essendon, and Sydney have capitalised on our poor skills.

We are still two players short of a spine. We need a reliabe CHF and CHB.
We need better players in the middle.
We lack the midfield talent the good teams have. Melbourne, Bulldogs, Brisbane, even Carlton have better talent than we do.

We’ve also beaten Geelong, Freo, Richmond, Carlton - all top 4/8 sides and had outplayed Freo before deciding not to try anymore and Longmuire made a move our coach couldn’t counteract but everyone saw coming..
That’s not skill that’s effort /game plan
Ask yourself - deplorable in the middle last night…Bontempelli running riot ….WHAT did Brett even try to do to give us a different look????
Oh wait for it…..Membrey behind the ball!!!
That’ll confuse them!!!
Why not swing Sinclsir in there??? Like we did with success against Pies???? Nup
Why not swing Sharman forward ?
King up the ground?
Ryder to FF
DO something!!
Guys got nothing

[Teflon]

Here’s a free idea for clueless Brett from BF

I suggested that earlier on to free Sincs sending Jones back. Sinclair looks like a star quality player now. He's easily our top shelf elite type and not just in the Steele A grade consistent ball getter. He isn't that far off Bont sort of level now. Two weeks in a row he's nailed this running goals and his ball handling is incredible. I want my best player on the ball, even if he's just playing on the outside and we use Crouch, Steele and Ross to feed him.

[Yorkeys]

You could conclude Ratts has quite limited authority.
Selection and tactics seem like something a committee system would throw up.
Ratts was cross and upset after the Dogs. Now he should demand presidential powers.
Imagine having to clear everything through Rath and Lethlean or whoever get to second guess.
When Brett named and shamed Jones maybe he was talking to Rath or someone else in the box?

[bangaulegend]

It's not all Ratt's fault for sure but he doesn't do himself any favours when he waits for the game to be gone before he responds . IMO

[Teflon]

You could conclude Ratts has quite limited authority.
Selection and tactics seem like something a committee system would throw up.
Ratts was cross and upset after the Dogs. Now he should demand presidential powers.
Imagine having to clear everything through Rath and Lethlean or whoever get to second guess.
When Brett named and shamed Jones maybe he was talking to Rath or someone else in the box?

Tend to agree
It’s got that committee feel about it
Brett doesn’t have the goolies to just say
“**** it I’m in charge we are doing this”
In BF apparently 1 if the players last year commented to a poster the game plan was confusing
We’ll they look utterly brain dead on it this year
And if you need any evidence that we have a coaching issue think about this….
Pies today in 1 quarter of footy had 3 less tackles than we had for the whole game….
Players effort not there cause they aren’t onboard

[Wayne42]

Just watched post game message to the fans;
Used the descriptor 'embarassing". Agree.
Said there have been some hard conversations and there will be more. OK, good. Why haven't the earlier ones had a positive impact, just wondering.
Skills are poor. Check.
No tackling effort. Check.
Game was over by three quarter time. Yes, probably quarter time.
WCE will think they can beat us. D'oh.
Will try to win in Perth, and to finish with a joke "so we can still be in the race for the finals..". Good one Brett.

It seems Brett has a firm handle on the fact team is not performing very well and there will need to be discussions and an assessment of where we are at. Well we support that, good luck. Novel, like it.

What he didn't say:
we need to give the ball to Hill, (if you can find him.)
It wasn't Max's fault he can't take marks
Windhager was good under pressure - or anyone was good under pressure. Windhager, from iso, did have as many tackles as Hill, Webster and Butler though, is that right.
Paddy played well
can't blame umpiring
I know I can turn this around in another 2, maybe three years. Continue to be patient. (I suspect he wouldn't dare ask the Board or members to just be patient.)

And so it rolls.

He can't wait 3 years to turn it around, he's only got another 2.
If we keep dealing up shite like we have post bye then Brett's Balloon knot will have all sorts of issues at the end of his contract extension.

[Teflon]

For those questioning why the coach is copping so much heat read this from Narkle on BF - very good point he makes.

************

I don’t necessarily disagree but tackling is only a part of the problem.

The crux of it is is, measuring performance on “tackles” and “pressure” is too simplistic.

It’s like a politician who looks at high crime stats and says “build more jails”, it only fixes the end of the problem.

A team that is highly skilled, well drilled, and practices executing under pressure will, if they are on, move the ball too quickly to tackle.

The Dogs are a highly skilled team. They were on last year against us and won by 120 odd points. They weren’t even that “on” last night and we still couldn’t lay a glove on them.

This is where how a team sets up is key. You can’t just aggressively run and try and tackle all night against slick ball movement, it will actually * you up as all the missed tackles create even more space for a skilled team to execute.

You need a plan B, C and D, and need to be able to drop your defense back when the other team is having a run on. You also need to be able to possess the ball yourself, something we don’t have the skill to do through design and/or talent (I think it is 80% design, others talent).

You need players with high footy IQ to recognize the above (which can be developed and is a KPI for the coaches to develop).

At least from press conferences, it seems Ratts’ only answer to our issues is lack of pressure, scrapping and tackling. That to me is a massive worry.

Too often since the Richardson era, in games against skilled opponents, we just become headless chicken witches hats.

[WellardSaint]

Teflon's copy n paste of the BF post is interesting.

I think back to a game against the Bombers a few years ago, it was early season, a night game.
In the first quarter, the Bombers moved the ball with a lot of precision and speed; they played keepings-off with us.
As the qtr time siren sounded, cameras showed all our guys doubled over and heaving as if they'd run a marathon.
That was just the first qtr.
Commentators were stunned at this.

Narkle's post explains this- we couldn't get our hands on it, so all we did was chase and chase and chase.
The Bombers were able to move the ball cleanly and each player stopped for a breath once they'd played their part, while our guys were running in circles desperately.

That's how we've played against Dockers, Dees, Swans, Dogs, Bombers, etc.
No wonder we can't tackle- we're spent.

[Impatient Sainter]

Matty Lloyd just summed up Ratten perfectly on the Footy Show. He said the players are either not listening to Ratten or are playing confused footy. He suggested the Saints are playing 'safe footy' like a group/club about to sack their coach and Ratten is lucky he had his contracted extended when he did.

Ratten highlighted a lack of intensity and pressure against Essendon, yet we still only had 11 tackles to half time against the Dogs. The players are not buying what Ratten is selling.

Its damning when Lloyd, Brown etc can see the obvious flaws in our play, yet our coaches cant address them.

[Vortex]

Matty Lloyd just summed up Ratten perfectly on the Footy Show. He said the players are either not listening to Ratten or are playing confused footy. He suggested the Saints are playing 'safe footy' like a group/club about to sack their coach and Ratten is lucky he had his contracted extended when he did.

Ratten highlighted a lack of intensity and pressure against Essendon, yet we still only had 11 tackles to half time against the Dogs. The players are not buying what Ratten is selling.

Its damning when Lloyd, Brown etc can see the obvious flaws in our play, yet our coaches cant address them.

Would you say that is why our captain threw in the towel mid game? He's cracked it with his coach. This major if this is the case because when your captain sooks it up mid game you know you have massive problems.

[Teflon]

Matty Lloyd just summed up Ratten perfectly on the Footy Show. He said the players are either not listening to Ratten or are playing confused footy. He suggested the Saints are playing 'safe footy' like a group/club about to sack their coach and Ratten is lucky he had his contracted extended when he did.

Ratten highlighted a lack of intensity and pressure against Essendon, yet we still only had 11 tackles to half time against the Dogs. The players are not buying what Ratten is selling.

Its damning when Lloyd, Brown etc can see the obvious flaws in our play, yet our coaches cant address them.

Would you say that is why our captain threw in the towel mid game? He's cracked it with his coach. This major if this is the case because when your captain sooks it up mid game you know you have massive problems.

I think there is no question Steele looks lost and honestly at times genuinely annoyed on field
He knows it’s not working what this coaching group are putting up
Ratten is at best a middling coach - still a step up on Richo but cut from the same cloth (and coaching panel)
We had an opportunity to bring in a top line coach and we have consigned Steele and co to 2 more years of this Shyte??
Bling Freddy can see Lloyd is right - players like Brett , he’s a nice guy but I don’t think right now they think he’s got the coaching nous to take us forward…and the Board re-sign him…,just mind boggling
Oh and I’d watch Lloyd……he makes no secret he’s close to the Kings and texts Max often ….Essendon would love him one day …

[Teflon]

Teflon's copy n paste of the BF post is interesting.

I think back to a game against the Bombers a few years ago, it was early season, a night game.
In the first quarter, the Bombers moved the ball with a lot of precision and speed; they played keepings-off with us.
As the qtr time siren sounded, cameras showed all our guys doubled over and heaving as if they'd run a marathon.
That was just the first qtr.
Commentators were stunned at this.

Narkle's post explains this- we couldn't get our hands on it, so all we did was chase and chase and chase.
The Bombers were able to move the ball cleanly and each player stopped for a breath once they'd played their part, while our guys were running in circles desperately.

That's how we've played against Dockers, Dees, Swans, Dogs, Bombers, etc.
No wonder we can't tackle- we're spent.

It’s a good post by Narkle - he also put one up recently that , from an experienced global soccer coach, talked about the important role the RIGHT coach has in improving players skill execution under pressure- and how ensuring the training program pinpoints this and is built so it enhances skill execution under pressure so game day you actually see the improvement
Coincidentally Sam Mitchell has also come out and said this is almost a no 1 coaching responsibility
It’s interesting reading so many on here excuse the coaching group here and palm it all off as “just doesn’t have the cattle” or “it’s all recruiting fault”
Sure, you need to recruit as skilful players as you can and I’d argue most AFL players are there cause they have skill
But that skill level can and ought to be improved through top line coaching
Kings forward craft case in point - he looks utterly lost….not sure whether to play upfield one week or or stand 25 out from goal against 4 defenders next week while we bomb it on his head waiting for him to be super man
Great coaching simplifies it for these guys in a way that allows them to play to and maximise their strengths
We are destroying King playing like we are and what other high profile free agent would look at our current Benny Hill game style and want to cone plsy for us??
What would they learn????
Nothing
We are in a bad way off field and signing Ratten now by this Board has just made it worse
Why couldn’t they have simply said
“Brett concentrate on getting us into finals and we’ll talk at seasons end”
Dumb he wasn’t being poached!!

[Vortex]

Matty Lloyd just summed up Ratten perfectly on the Footy Show. He said the players are either not listening to Ratten or are playing confused footy. He suggested the Saints are playing 'safe footy' like a group/club about to sack their coach and Ratten is lucky he had his contracted extended when he did.

Ratten highlighted a lack of intensity and pressure against Essendon, yet we still only had 11 tackles to half time against the Dogs. The players are not buying what Ratten is selling.

Its damning when Lloyd, Brown etc can see the obvious flaws in our play, yet our coaches cant address them.

Would you say that is why our captain threw in the towel mid game? He's cracked it with his coach. This major if this is the case because when your captain sooks it up mid game you know you have massive problems.

I think there is no question Steele looks lost and honestly at times genuinely annoyed on field
He knows it’s not working what this coaching group are putting up
Ratten is at best a middling coach - still a step up on Richo but cut from the same cloth (and coaching panel)
We had an opportunity to bring in a top line coach and we have consigned Steele and co to 2 more years of this Shyte??
Bling Freddy can see Lloyd is right - players like Brett , he’s a nice guy but I don’t think right now they think he’s got the coaching nous to take us forward…and the Board re-sign him…,just mind boggling
Oh and I’d watch Lloyd……he makes no secret he’s close to the Kings and texts Max often ….Essendon would love him one day …

So I'm not the only one that's notice we've picked a Captain who throws in the towel mid game. Yeah sure if he's blaming that on his coach then it's certainly interesting times.

[Teflon]

Teflon's copy n paste of the BF post is interesting.

I think back to a game against the Bombers a few years ago, it was early season, a night game.
In the first quarter, the Bombers moved the ball with a lot of precision and speed; they played keepings-off with us.
As the qtr time siren sounded, cameras showed all our guys doubled over and heaving as if they'd run a marathon.
That was just the first qtr.
Commentators were stunned at this.

Narkle's post explains this- we couldn't get our hands on it, so all we did was chase and chase and chase.
The Bombers were able to move the ball cleanly and each player stopped for a breath once they'd played their part, while our guys were running in circles desperately.

That's how we've played against Dockers, Dees, Swans, Dogs, Bombers, etc.
No wonder we can't tackle- we're spent.

In relation to our “workmanlike” manic game plan and what it might mean I thought below was an interesting add on to Narkles post above:

********

I posted earlier we ran as much as the doggies, further at high speeds and had more sprints and repeat sprints. This indicates that it wasn't a work rate issue. We worked harder than the other team

**********
What that means is we play a dumb brand of football
Dogs practice in tight under pressure flicking that ball around
By the time Saints chase them round playing ring a rosy we are rooted
Rattens 1970s zone just gets walked
3 saints players charge at the Dogs player to tackle….and he just flicks it out wide…they’re off….we are chasing again
Dumb ….we’re like that dumb Labrador that can’t stop himself chasing the stick to the point of exhaustion
That’s the game plan
So let’s hear no more of this “Brett has no talent to work with” it might be true (all sides have list holes) but this side is better than bottom 4 and last 5 games we are 17th for % and 18th in contested ball
Thems facts
Coaching and game plan is shyte
Players have stopped listening