A Ratten hypothetical

[samoht]

In a tight competition it only takes a small improvement and a change of luck with injury for any side to rocket up the ladder.

Darcy Moore was sidelined around June of last year with a serious knee injury. I think Elliott was also injured for a fair bit of last year ... maybe half the games?
Two important players.

Then you have the addition of Ginnivan and Nick Daicos, etc...
You need to look at all factors at play.

Recruiting is "the" key ... I'm convinced of it.

Multiple premiership winning coach Malthouse did not make an iota of a difference when he replaced Ratten ... we can choose to ignore that fact or take note of that.

[st.byron]

In a tight competition it only takes a small improvement and a change of luck with injury for any side to rocket up the ladder.

Darcy Moore was sidelined around June of last year with a serious knee injury. I think Elliott was also injured for a fair bit of last year ... maybe half the games?
Two important players.

Then you have the addition of Ginnivan and Nick Daicos, etc...
You need to look at all factors at play.

Recruiting is "the" key ... I'm convinced of it.

Multiple premiership winning coach Malthouse did not make an iota of a difference when he replaced Ratten ... we can choose to ignore that fact or take note of that.

Yeah you've been consistently putting out this message for years. I don't think anyone is disputing that recruiting is important. But it's not all that's important. They have to play as a cohesive unit and all be on the same page. Doesn't look like that's happening to me and that's not to do with recruiting.

[samoht]

We keep blaming all the coaches.
What was wrong with Sheldon?
Didn't the players play as a cohesive unit under him?

All the coaches except Jeans are rubbish and are to blame ... that seems to be the default position at St Kilda ... when things are going wrong for other reasons.

I also forgot that Howe only played 8 games in 2021 for Collingwood.
No wonder Collingwood improved under McRae!!!!

[Scollop]

Teflon is right. It's not just recruiting. If that were the case GWS would have 3 flags already. Of course coaching is crucial. He sets the tone for the whole group. And if you've got some like Richo who avoided conflict like the plague and wouldn't make tough calls, the boats not going to steer straight. Ratten's too cuddly as well. They play like their desperate for someone to take the reins.

According to some people it's inconceivable that someone so cuddly as a coach can get his team close to an opportunity to play in Grand finals

This will be three years in a row for prelim finals that Chris Fagan has coached the Lions

But...the Lions did stay down at the bottom of the ladder for a while and the right recruiting and a proper rebuild of their core group is the key to their success in my opinion

[Scollop]

Getting Lachie Neale and Grant Birchall and getting Luke Hodge at Brisbane was crucial in setting up the team to be where they are today.

Maybe St Kilda have a similar growth path. Hopefully our younger stars and the existing talent on the list keep improving. Ryder and Hill and Hannebery and even Brad Crouch will be wasted if we don't build on the leadership and the experience these guys have brought to our club

[Yorkeys]

Isn't it group/coach chemistry and how good an analyst the coach is?

And Fagan cuddly. Wildly romantic description of a real tough nut.

Just can't point to Ratts making any inspired calls, am I wrong?
Richo wasn't inspiring either though.

[st.byron]

Teflon is right. It's not just recruiting. If that were the case GWS would have 3 flags already. Of course coaching is crucial. He sets the tone for the whole group. And if you've got some like Richo who avoided conflict like the plague and wouldn't make tough calls, the boats not going to steer straight. Ratten's too cuddly as well. They play like their desperate for someone to take the reins.

According to some people it's inconceivable that someone so cuddly as a coach can get his team close to an opportunity to play in Grand finals

This will be three years in a row for prelim finals that Chris Fagan has coached the Lions

But...the Lions did stay down at the bottom of the ladder for a while and the right recruiting and a proper rebuild of their core group is the key to their success in my opinion

I don't see Fagan as cuddly. He looks like he's got a hard edge to me. Ratten doesn't. Fagan seems direct and no BS. Ratten doesn't. Ratten looks to me like he's not 100% in charge of the ship. Captain of the ship needs to be.

[Scollop]

You're making stuff up based on your personal views.

What do you mean by Ratten not 100% in control?

Give us some examples of Fagan's 'hard edge'.

[samoht]

Fagan really goes to town on his chewing gum.
The chewy takes a beating.

Other than that, all I see is a kindly, avuncular soul. A bit on the reserved side?

[Scollop]

No doubt that the Lions players genuinely love playing for their coach.

I think one of the keys to coaching is to be consistent in your belief in your group and Fagan has the gift of selling that message really well. He has been unwavering in his trust and his players repaid the faith last night

He communicates well, and he is a thinker and he has adapted well imo, and he continues to give cuddles. Hopefully our coach can learn a few things from the cunning old man Fages....I think ....if anything....Ratts needs to give his players more cuddles

[Teflon]

Teflon is right. It's not just recruiting. If that were the case GWS would have 3 flags already. Of course coaching is crucial. He sets the tone for the whole group. And if you've got some like Richo who avoided conflict like the plague and wouldn't make tough calls, the boats not going to steer straight. Ratten's too cuddly as well. They play like their desperate for someone to take the reins.

It’s such a shame is how I genuinely see it
I truly believe IF the Board had their time again they’d have waited on Ratten. They’re now stuck
I’m not sure what’s worse…making the mistake OR continuing to make the mistake cause you don’t want to be seen as getting it wrong.
Either way club suffers , members suffer (again)
We are the basket case of the AFL
We will never be successful till we get done genuine swagger about us abd make tough calls
What’s really scary now is - Ratten knows it’s finals or he’s gone next year so does he try stamp his name on it now and go all out and trade out some name players (Clark) which could also blow up in our face !
We are at a really interesting point

[Teflon]

We keep blaming all the coaches.
What was wrong with Sheldon?
Didn't the players play as a cohesive unit under him?

All the coaches except Jeans are rubbish and are to blame ... that seems to be the default position at St Kilda ... when things are going wrong for other reasons.

I also forgot that Howe only played 8 games in 2021 for Collingwood.
No wonder Collingwood improved under McRae!!!!

Collingwood are playing a complete different style of football - how you conveniently overlook that and suggest Howe and Elliot are all the difference is nuts
The ENTIRE team has brought into McRaes plan
They believe it and back themselves
They don’t play 1 quarter out of 4
IF our list is so bad with so many holes how did we win 8-3 then slide into the abyss??? Players lose all talent???
They were clearly not invested in Rattens game plan at times they look like confused headless chooks - geezus watch the games it’s extraordinarily obvious
I’d argue this list was on par with Tigers this year - their midfield is not as good (Cotchibs finished Dusty played 4 games) they play a system a style that this didn’t matter they made finals
Our fragile gane plan fell apart
Go re watch Freo match - we battle hard first half
Their coach makes the obvious shift by adding Fyfe to midfield
We have zero response ZERO we just capitulated
Players suddenly lose all their ability ????
This list was good enough for 7/8 imo
They’re not playing as a cohesive team
Further more the skill levels have gone backwards (anyone want to tell me they’ve improved Kings kicking yet????)
That’s coaching FFS and he’s out of his depth
Lovely bloke by the way probably a hood assistant but that’s it

[Teflon]

Teflon is right. It's not just recruiting. If that were the case GWS would have 3 flags already. Of course coaching is crucial. He sets the tone for the whole group. And if you've got some like Richo who avoided conflict like the plague and wouldn't make tough calls, the boats not going to steer straight. Ratten's too cuddly as well. They play like their desperate for someone to take the reins.

According to some people it's inconceivable that someone so cuddly as a coach can get his team close to an opportunity to play in Grand finals

This will be three years in a row for prelim finals that Chris Fagan has coached the Lions

But...the Lions did stay down at the bottom of the ladder for a while and the right recruiting and a proper rebuild of their core group is the key to their success in my opinion

I don't see Fagan as cuddly. He looks like he's got a hard edge to me. Ratten doesn't. Fagan seems direct and no BS. Ratten doesn't. Ratten looks to me like he's not 100% in charge of the ship. Captain of the ship needs to be.

Farah ain’t cuddly he has a fair amount of mongrel in him
He’s just a decent coach

[Yorkeys]

Of course Ratts doesn't have a Fyffe or Berry to move.

Or a Charlie C or a McStay or Mcluggage, just our baggage.

[Scollop]

We keep blaming all the coaches.
What was wrong with Sheldon?
Didn't the players play as a cohesive unit under him?

All the coaches except Jeans are rubbish and are to blame ... that seems to be the default position at St Kilda ... when things are going wrong for other reasons.

I also forgot that Howe only played 8 games in 2021 for Collingwood.
No wonder Collingwood improved under McRae!!!!

Collingwood are playing a complete different style of football - how you conveniently overlook that and suggest Howe and Elliot are all the difference is nuts
The ENTIRE team has brought into McRaes plan
They believe it and back themselves
They don’t play 1 quarter out of 4
IF our list is so bad with so many holes how did we win 8-3 then slide into the abyss??? Players lose all talent???
They were clearly not invested in Rattens game plan at times they look like confused headless chooks - geezus watch the games it’s extraordinarily obvious
I’d argue this list was on par with Tigers this year - their midfield is not as good (Cotchibs finished Dusty played 4 games) they play a system a style that this didn’t matter they made finals
Our fragile gane plan fell apart
Go re watch Freo match - we battle hard first half
Their coach makes the obvious shift by adding Fyfe to midfield
We have zero response ZERO we just capitulated
Players suddenly lose all their ability ????
This list was good enough for 7/8 imo
They’re not playing as a cohesive team
Further more the skill levels have gone backwards (anyone want to tell me they’ve improved Kings kicking yet????)
That’s coaching FFS and he’s out of his depth
Lovely bloke by the way probably a hood assistant but that’s it

If you can explain how Melbourne beat the Lions by 10 goals a few weeks back at the Gabba ...as well as pumping them at the MCG in round 15 and how the Lions turned things around...

Plus ...please explain why our capitulation in form mid year was NOT mostly because of injuries to some of our key players including Jack Steele ....and why Brad Hill was arguing with Ryder in a pub and what the real story is behind him sitting out a game of footy for us mid season...then I'll listen to some your other opinions

[Teflon]

We keep blaming all the coaches.
What was wrong with Sheldon?
Didn't the players play as a cohesive unit under him?

All the coaches except Jeans are rubbish and are to blame ... that seems to be the default position at St Kilda ... when things are going wrong for other reasons.

I also forgot that Howe only played 8 games in 2021 for Collingwood.
No wonder Collingwood improved under McRae!!!!

Collingwood are playing a complete different style of football - how you conveniently overlook that and suggest Howe and Elliot are all the difference is nuts
The ENTIRE team has brought into McRaes plan
They believe it and back themselves
They don’t play 1 quarter out of 4
IF our list is so bad with so many holes how did we win 8-3 then slide into the abyss??? Players lose all talent???
They were clearly not invested in Rattens game plan at times they look like confused headless chooks - geezus watch the games it’s extraordinarily obvious
I’d argue this list was on par with Tigers this year - their midfield is not as good (Cotchibs finished Dusty played 4 games) they play a system a style that this didn’t matter they made finals
Our fragile gane plan fell apart
Go re watch Freo match - we battle hard first half
Their coach makes the obvious shift by adding Fyfe to midfield
We have zero response ZERO we just capitulated
Players suddenly lose all their ability ????
This list was good enough for 7/8 imo
They’re not playing as a cohesive team
Further more the skill levels have gone backwards (anyone want to tell me they’ve improved Kings kicking yet????)
That’s coaching FFS and he’s out of his depth
Lovely bloke by the way probably a hood assistant but that’s it

If you can explain how Melbourne beat the Lions by 10 goals a few weeks back at the Gabba ...as well as pumping them at the MCG in round 15 and how the Lions turned things around...

Plus ...please explain why our capitulation in form mid year was NOT mostly because of injuries to some of our key players including Jack Steele ....and why Brad Hill was arguing with Ryder in a pub and what the real story is behind him sitting out a game of footy for us mid season...then I'll listen to some your other opinions

I couldn’t give a rats toss bag what you listen to
And why would I explain why Brad hill and Ryder had an altercation in the pub with some nuff supporters???
I’m not even interested tbh
What an odd question
Could you explain to me (so I might listen) why this side played 1 4 quarter gane of football all year??
Let me guess…Shyte list??

[Scollop]

So you don't know much... do you?

You just think you have the simple answer regarding why we aren't playing finals this year

Your simple solution to everything is ...that it's Ratten's fault

[Teflon]

So you don't know much... do you?

You just think you have the simple answer regarding why we aren't playing finals this year

Your simple solution to everything is ...that it's Ratten's fault

No now you’re showing serious stupidity
Brain dead people know it’s not 1 thing or the other
But what brain smart people do is assess where is the greatest uplift in our current poor performance going to cone from ?
Right now our inability to transition a footy, structure a decent forward line or even execute skills under pressure tells me the coaching box and getting that right is our best bet to get a bump in performance
I don’t subscribe the list is terrible - it can be improved sure, but it’s playing nowhere near its capability because this side are not on the sane page with coaching group imo
We’ll still need to draft/recruit we’ll
We’ll still need to improve development
I thought that was obvious

[st.byron]

You're making stuff up based on your personal views.

What do you mean by Ratten not 100% in control?

Give us some examples of Fagan's 'hard edge'.

Well of course I’m making stuff up based on my personal views. Aren’t we all. Looks to me like Ratten is not the only one steering the ship. Or if he is the direction isn’t clear. Re Fagan, that’s my impression of him. No nonsense.

[Scollop]

So you don't know much... do you?

You just think you have the simple answer regarding why we aren't playing finals this year

Your simple solution to everything is ...that it's Ratten's fault

No now you’re showing serious stupidity
Brain dead people know it’s not 1 thing or the other
But what brain smart people do is assess where is the greatest uplift in our current poor performance going to cone from ?
Right now our inability to transition a footy, structure a decent forward line or even execute skills under pressure tells me the coaching box and getting that right is our best bet to get a bump in performance
I don’t subscribe the list is terrible - it can be improved sure, but it’s playing nowhere near its capability because this side are not on the sane page with coaching group imo
We’ll still need to draft/recruit we’ll
We’ll still need to improve development
I thought that was obvious

I don't think it's all about game plan and structure and executing skills.

You're obviously not stupid or brain dead....Now...

How about you revisit some of the threads that talked about 'ticker' and heart.

[Vortex]

14th, 5th, 10th and 10th.

And we are too timid to make a change.

Harvey, Hayes, Enright etc. etc. we just have to have the balls to make a change.

Or the balls not to change. Sometimes the best decision is not to make a change.

2024 will be the year for decisions on rebuilds and coaches. Until then the list is where significant change is required.

The list is overrated, the core is too small and defective. The club and recruiters will fast track our next wooden spoon if they think we are capable of finals 4 footy with this list.

Lol balls not to change??
The clubs made a mistake de appointing Ratten…Bassatt knows it and he’s been sold a pup by his footy Dept so he wants an independent view and has Noble in.
It’s too late ofcourse as after 3 years of Ratten we’ve seen enough to know what he brings but they stuffed it
Don’t try make it sound like it’s a considered strategy - what nonsense
Clubs coaching is in a state
He’s got 12 months and if we are here this time next year he’s gone

He's gone either way you look at from a St Kilda perspective, can anyone see us competing with the likes of the current top 4 sides any time soon, how do we stand a chance when two gun midfielders can just walk to Richmond, how do we compete with that. Having a quality list is something we are always going to struggle obtaining being a poor club and possibly the only way we can achieve that is through complete tanking and collecting as many first rounders as possible to build a core around, similar to how we built the 2000 to 2010 list. Although with that list we had a bit of extra luck due to Carltons misfortune which gifted us extra star power like Goddard.

We will be at best with this list a middling team before we crash and have to go into full rebuild, my prediction is in 2024 unless we get some incredible luck in the next two trade years.

Sure the coach is crap, the list is crapper.

[Teflon]

14th, 5th, 10th and 10th.

And we are too timid to make a change.

Harvey, Hayes, Enright etc. etc. we just have to have the balls to make a change.

Or the balls not to change. Sometimes the best decision is not to make a change.

2024 will be the year for decisions on rebuilds and coaches. Until then the list is where significant change is required.

The list is overrated, the core is too small and defective. The club and recruiters will fast track our next wooden spoon if they think we are capable of finals 4 footy with this list.

Lol balls not to change??
The clubs made a mistake de appointing Ratten…Bassatt knows it and he’s been sold a pup by his footy Dept so he wants an independent view and has Noble in.
It’s too late ofcourse as after 3 years of Ratten we’ve seen enough to know what he brings but they stuffed it
Don’t try make it sound like it’s a considered strategy - what nonsense
Clubs coaching is in a state
He’s got 12 months and if we are here this time next year he’s gone

He's gone either way you look at from a St Kilda perspective, can anyone see us competing with the likes of the current top 4 sides any time soon, how do we stand a chance when two gun midfielders can just walk to Richmond, how do we compete with that. Having a quality list is something we are always going to struggle obtaining being a poor club and possibly the only way we can achieve that is through complete tanking and collecting as many first rounders as possible to build a core around, similar to how we built the 2000 to 2010 list. Although with that list we had a bit of extra luck due to Carltons misfortune which gifted us extra star power like Goddard.

We will be at best with this list a middling team before we crash and have to go into full rebuild, my prediction is in 2024 unless we get some incredible luck in the next two trade years.

Sure the coach is crap, the list is crapper.

The comp is pretty even
We beat Cats , beat Tigers shoulda beat Lions and Swans and finally (when our coach made move Rd 1 of Sincs to the middle) hit the front late against Pies…(why he never did that again has me stuffed) point is we have a core of 26/27 year olds and it’s either supplement them now for a genuine tilt or full rebuild.
This is why getting a top coach, like Clarkson, in was so important - as a club we’ve been irrelevant for 10 years now…I’m not sure we can survive being irrelevant for another 10. We had to move , had the perfect opportunity to do it and this Board wet the bed. Clarkson alone would have brought the Blight effect a small club like ours needed.
Anyway, it can change quick (look at Pies) if we can get more from mid aged bracket - Clark Coffield Gresham Higgins Hayes Billings plus keep developing NWM, Windy , Owens and King plus bring in (assume we choose right) 2 more highly rated draft picks we can start to see a new core emerge and perhaps we go back /tread water 1 year before pushing up
That willl still require a total shift in our game plan/skill level and I think new coach

[Vortex]

14th, 5th, 10th and 10th.

And we are too timid to make a change.

Harvey, Hayes, Enright etc. etc. we just have to have the balls to make a change.

Or the balls not to change. Sometimes the best decision is not to make a change.

2024 will be the year for decisions on rebuilds and coaches. Until then the list is where significant change is required.

The list is overrated, the core is too small and defective. The club and recruiters will fast track our next wooden spoon if they think we are capable of finals 4 footy with this list.

Lol balls not to change??
The clubs made a mistake de appointing Ratten…Bassatt knows it and he’s been sold a pup by his footy Dept so he wants an independent view and has Noble in.
It’s too late ofcourse as after 3 years of Ratten we’ve seen enough to know what he brings but they stuffed it
Don’t try make it sound like it’s a considered strategy - what nonsense
Clubs coaching is in a state
He’s got 12 months and if we are here this time next year he’s gone

He's gone either way you look at from a St Kilda perspective, can anyone see us competing with the likes of the current top 4 sides any time soon, how do we stand a chance when two gun midfielders can just walk to Richmond, how do we compete with that. Having a quality list is something we are always going to struggle obtaining being a poor club and possibly the only way we can achieve that is through complete tanking and collecting as many first rounders as possible to build a core around, similar to how we built the 2000 to 2010 list. Although with that list we had a bit of extra luck due to Carltons misfortune which gifted us extra star power like Goddard.

We will be at best with this list a middling team before we crash and have to go into full rebuild, my prediction is in 2024 unless we get some incredible luck in the next two trade years.

Sure the coach is crap, the list is crapper.

The comp is pretty even
We beat Cats , beat Tigers shoulda beat Lions and Swans and finally (when our coach made move Rd 1 of Sincs to the middle) hit the front late against Pies…(why he never did that again has me stuffed) point is we have a core of 26/27 year olds and it’s either supplement them now for a genuine tilt or full rebuild.
This is why getting a top coach, like Clarkson, in was so important - as a club we’ve been irrelevant for 10 years now…I’m not sure we can survive being irrelevant for another 10. We had to move , had the perfect opportunity to do it and this Board wet the bed. Clarkson alone would have brought the Blight effect a small club like ours needed.
Anyway, it can change quick (look at Pies) if we can get more from mid aged bracket - Clark Coffield Gresham Higgins Hayes Billings plus keep developing NWM, Windy , Owens and King plus bring in (assume we choose right) 2 more highly rated draft picks we can start to see a new core emerge and perhaps we go back /tread water 1 year before pushing up
That willl still require a total shift in our game plan/skill level and I think new coach

Clarkson was never available to us unless you truly believe we should have beat North to the punch by sacking Ratten before North sacked Noble as a cunning strategy to lure him here, and then there's the really small issue of Clarkson stating he would NEVER take a job at a club while there was a coach still contracted, AND Essendon found out the hard way he is true to his word on that score. To suggest we had a genuine chance of luring Clarko to StKilda and all the club had to do to seal the deal was sack our coach midseason or delay sacking until season's end is delusional and completely and conveniently ignores the reality of the whole matter including not least of all he would have had to WANT to come to us in the first place AND shaft a friend of his along the way. I'm guessing he cares about his credibility and integrity a lot more than that, not to mention value his friendships more than you suggest.

So Teffers, let's say you've sacked Ratts because you thought it would get you Clarko, what would have been your plan B, which coach that is gettable would you have chosen as your second choice recognising you've already sacked Ratts, but you didn't care because you felt strongly that anybody else other than Ratts is the solution to all our problems. Who was gettable that would have been your second choice?

[Zed]

Too many of our players can’t hit a target by foot when under pressure. Similarly too many just blast the ball forward blindly.
It’s why we need to hold onto NWM and anyone else who can hit a target.

Best gameplan in the world cant make up for the shortcomings above.

The one obvious criticism I would make of the coaching panel was not allowing Lloyd to work with King. That decision cost us making finals this year. Sucked the confidence out of the kid and missed shots deflated the team as a whole.

[Ghost Like]

Too many of our players can’t hit a target by foot when under pressure. Similarly too many just blast the ball forward blindly.
It’s why we need to hold onto NWM and anyone else who can hit a target.

Best gameplan in the world cant make up for the shortcomings above.

The one obvious criticism I would make of the coaching panel was not allowing Lloyd to work with King. That decision cost us making finals this year. Sucked the confidence out of the kid and missed shots deflated the team as a whole.

I agree with part of the above Zed but I'm not convinced that King's master prior to St Kilda was or is the answer because he came to our Club with the question marks over his kicking.

Best game plan however requires buy in by players and rote learning in its execution, which appears to be the downfall of our 2022 coaches.

Lade must go if this review has even the smallest amount of credibility.