Classic Plugger

[bigcarl]

Not sure about Kosi becoming the next Plugger, to date he's been too injury prone.

there's only one tony lockett, as the song says. but kosi can make a good ff imo

[joffaboy]

Come to this thread a bit late but there you go.

had a BBQ at my place in Newport that day in 1994, about 5 Saints supporters there. We watched the game outside with the sound down for three quarters and then went inside to watch the last quarter. I dont need to tell you the atmosphere as we made our run and came back. Was fantastic.

Of course Sheahan and the other media hacks had a field day, as well as Barassi and Paul Kelly verballing Lockett over the Caven incident. Plugger got a lazy 8 weeks for that. Suprisingly enough when he went to Sydney the AFL's lovechild, he would get away with almost anything

First game of live football I saw was Saints v Melbourne 1988 at Moorabbin. Wow Jones was our ruckman, and Jayson Daniels was a skinny 17 y.o. A promising young bloke by the name of Harvey hadn't quite cracked it for a seniors spot, but I was assured by a friend that you Harvey would be a 100 game player for us - lol - how wrong he was
Some huge fat bloke was standing in the goal square for the Saints running about 10 metres on a lead turning around and kicking goal after goal. I thought to myself, this is the team for me. Anyway typically we beat the Dees by about 10 goals and the typical false dawn of a Saint supporter had risen

best I ever saw Lockett play? 15 against the Crows was awesome, the game he kicked his 100, again against the Crows was fantastic however

(and this is heresy to Saints fans)

I was at my in-laws in Footscray, across the road from the Western Oval and me and my brother-in-law wander across to watch Fitzroy v Swans. About 6,000 people were there. What I saw just amazed me from Lockett. 16 straight, from in front, from 50 metres out in a pocket, from the boundary, it seemed every shot went over the umpires hat. The accuracy was just amazing, and even though he was in Swans colours, I cannot remember a more dominant FF display - ever.

Tony Lockett was truly an amazing talent. I was so very fortunate to witness his skill on many occasions.

[saint66au]

My confession from that Swans game in 1994..

I taped the game, stayed away from the scores and watched it back that evening

Halfway through the last quarter I'd had a gutful and thought "bugger it Im gonna fast forward and just see how much we ended up losing by"

I FF'd (didnt even bother shuttling and watching it sped up) ..hit play..the score graphic came up and I thought.."Oh gee we did well to get withi..OH MY FREAKING GOD!!!"

[HarveysDeciple]

That goal against Fitzroy at North Hobart Oval that was mentioned in this thread was phenomenal.

Lockett led out, took the ball on the bounce, broke a tackle swung around on his right from outside 50 and snapped it around the body straight through the middle.
Slammed into the advertising boards.

Can't imagine too many people snapping a ball 60 metres straight through the middle.

[bigcarl]

That goal against Fitzroy at North Hobart Oval that was mentioned in this thread was phenomenal.

Lockett led out, took the ball on the bounce, broke a tackle swung around on his right from outside 50 and snapped it around the body straight through the middle.
Slammed into the advertising boards.

Can't imagine too many people snapping a ball 60 metres straight through the middle.

i remember that goal. from memory he kicked a lazy 10 that day, too.

[Beej]

I doubt we'll ever see anyone dominate the game to the same extent Plugger did.

With the rule changes at the start of the year most experts predicted that it would be easier to kick goals. Hasn't proven to be the case.

Every year the depth of quality footballers in the competition improves, footballers who are all bigger, stronger and fitter now more than ever. Combine that with the defensive, anti-football tactics being employed by clubs and you can see that it will become increasingly difficult to kick bags of 10-15.

As talented as he was (and he was a freak), Plugger was just so much bigger than anyone else. He was immovable. There isn't a player in the competition today with that much of an advantage in terms of strength.

Someone of a similar size and aerobic capacity to Plugger would not make it today. These days teams both defend and attack as a unit - forwards can't just sit in the goal-square anymore, they have to apply pressure and defend from the front.

He and Dunstall were both representative of an era which has now gone. They were the last of their kind.

[bigcarl]

Someone of a similar size and aerobic capacity to Plugger would not make it today.

I don't agree. the game has changed, but not that much.

imo he'd be a champion ff in any era

he'd have kicked 180 in our 2004 team and well over 100 last year.

it's true that teams would try to exploit him by running off him ... but that would leave him unattended in the attacking 50. not a wise move.

as for him not applying defensive pressure, there are a few backmen who would disagree. didn't pay to have the ball near lockett if you were a defender

[Beej]

Someone of a similar size and aerobic capacity to Plugger would not make it today.

I don't agree. the game has changed, but not that much.

imo he'd be a champion ff in any era

he'd have kicked 180 in our 2004 team and well over 100 last year.

An identical Plugger wouldn't have imo. Glass, Scarlett etc etc would easily match him for strength and speed and he wouldn't be able to lead into space all day as he was able to do during his entire career, such is the effectiveness of defensive zoning, double-teaming and getting numbers behind the ball. He was almost always one-on-one - forwards rarely get that luxury these days.

In any case, Plugger today would have no choice but to get himself in shape if he wanted to get a run in todays game, due to the physical demands. Take away the extra pounds that he carried, and he probably wouldn't have been as dominant.

The game today is unrecognisable in so many ways to how it was when Plugger was around. I'd even go as far to say that he'd be a liability on any team.

[bigcarl]

The game today is unrecognisable in so many ways to how it was when Plugger was around. I'd even go as far to say that he'd be a liability on any team.

gimme a break. he'd be no more a liability than gehrig was in 2004 when he won the coleman. a champ is a champ in any era imo. no-one matched him for strength or speed off the mark during his career so i doubt whether scarlett or glass would do much better. they'd have a few good tussles, though

[yipper]

The game today is unrecognisable in so many ways to how it was when Plugger was around. I'd even go as far to say that he'd be a liability on any team.

gimme a break. he'd be no more a liability than gehrig was in 2004 when he won the coleman. a champ is a champ in any era imo.

Exactly - or a Jonathon Brown??? As for Plugger leading into space all day and playing one-out all his career. You've got to be kidding me - did you watch him play? Bloke by the name of Sheedy invented the anti-Plugger tactics by stacking the backline with extra numbers. It was actually rare to see him one out with an opponent!! The games he was given some space he'd kick 12 or so. Most other times - against a stacked defence he'd get 7-8.

[Beej]

The game today is unrecognisable in so many ways to how it was when Plugger was around. I'd even go as far to say that he'd be a liability on any team.

gimme a break. he'd be no more a liability than gehrig was in 2004 when he won the coleman. a champ is a champ in any era imo.

You judge the greatness of a player by how much they dominated their particular era, granted. Plugger is probably the greatest footballer we've ever seen. I'm not saying that isn't the case but it's extremely difficult when you compare players in different eras.

However, to say that a champ would be a champ in any era is slightly misleading. Sure, great players would all have a similar winning mentality which is what made them excel at whatever it is they chose to do and if Plugger was born again today, I'm sure he'd become a legend all over again ... But, an "identical" Plugger to the one we saw in the 80s and 90s wouldn't be as effective in todays game.

It's like saying Scott Cummings would be able to kick 14 goals in a game today. Or that Jayson Daniels would be able get a regular game of AFL footy. Not a chance.

It would be like saying Rod Laver in todays tennis, with a wooden racquet, serving at about 80k's an hour, would be able to match it with Roger Federer. Simply not the case.

As the game evolves so do the players, and they don't get worse, they get better.

[Beej]

The game today is unrecognisable in so many ways to how it was when Plugger was around. I'd even go as far to say that he'd be a liability on any team.

gimme a break. he'd be no more a liability than gehrig was in 2004 when he won the coleman. a champ is a champ in any era imo.

Exactly - or a Jonathon Brown??? As for Plugger leading into space all day and playing one-out all his career. You've got to be kidding me - did you watch him play? Bloke by the name of Sheedy invented the anti-Plugger tactics by stacking the backline with extra numbers. It was actually rare to see him one out with an opponent!! The games he was given some space he'd kick 12 or so. Most other times - against a stacked defence he'd get 7-8.

I would say 75% of Plugger's goals, at least, came directly from leading and marking.

[st.byron]

The game today is unrecognisable in so many ways to how it was when Plugger was around. I'd even go as far to say that he'd be a liability on any team.

gimme a break. he'd be no more a liability than gehrig was in 2004 when he won the coleman. a champ is a champ in any era imo.

You judge the greatness of a player by how much they dominated their particular era, granted. Plugger is probably the greatest footballer we've ever seen. I'm not saying that isn't the case but it's extremely difficult when you compare players in different eras.

However, to say that a champ would be a champ in any era is slightly misleading. Sure, great players would all have a similar winning mentality which is what made them excel at whatever it is they chose to do and if Plugger was born again today, I'm sure he'd become a legend all over again ... But, an "identical" Plugger to the one we saw in the 80s and 90s wouldn't be as effective in todays game.

It's like saying Scott Cummings would be able to kick 14 goals in a game today. Or that Jayson Daniels would be able get a regular game of AFL footy. Not a chance.

It would be like saying Rod Laver in todays tennis, with a wooden racquet, serving at about 80k's an hour, would be able to match it with Roger Federer. Simply not the case.

As the game evolves so do the players, and they don't get worse, they get better.

Fair comments OLB about the problems with players from past eras being analysed in the context of the game today.
But I think you're underestimating the extent of Plugger's natural gifts. He was an absolute freak. We're all agreed that he was mountain of a man and yet he was so quick and had an awesome leap. One of the most exciting things about watching him was when he'd go for a hanger, he was truly awesome.
I think his ability would stand him in excellent stead today and that he'd still be a nightmare for other teams. As other posters have said, Plugger had plenty of games where he was double teamed. The main thing that's changed IMO is that the aggro he displayed and sheer physical menace has been sanitised out of the game, so he wouldn't have the psychological advantage of physically terrifying his opponents so much.
Still the most exciting, unpredictable and awesome player I've ever seen.

[yipper]

[quote="st.byron"}


Fair comments OLB about the problems with players from past eras being analysed in the context of the game today.
But I think you're underestimating the extent of Plugger's natural gifts. He was an absolute freak. We're all agreed that he was mountain of a man and yet he was so quick and had an awesome leap. One of the most exciting things about watching him was when he'd go for a hanger, he was truly awesome.
I think his ability would stand him in excellent stead today and that he'd still be a nightmare for other teams. As other posters have said, Plugger had plenty of games where he was double teamed. The main thing that's changed IMO is that the aggro he displayed and sheer physical menace has been sanitised out of the game, so he wouldn't have the psychological advantage of physically terrifying his opponents so much.
Still the most exciting, unpredictable and awesome player I've ever seen.[/quote]

Agreed. 100%. I also think Jonathon Brown is a realistic comparison to Plugger. Both big men, with great agility. To say Plugger of the 80's 90's could not have prospered in today's game is like saying Brown is no good!! Plugger was a freakishly good player in a goliath of a body. He would have starred in any era and been the awesome talent he was. The only difference in today's game is the sanitisation of the more physical aspects / the aggro - he may have been umpired out of it!! But he was a truely gifted footballer with an imposing presence, a fearsome opponent in every sense.

[Beej]

Amazingly simplistic view of the game if you're comparing Lockett and Brown imo. They're both massive men, that's where the comparison ends.

Jonathan Brown is a carbon copy of Carey. A lot more versatile than Lockett.

Lockett played out of the goalsquare. Brown plays in between CHF and FF and finds a lot of footy outside 50.

There is nobody in the game today who you could compare to Plugger.

[bigcarl]

There is nobody in the game today who you could compare to Plugger.

you're right about that. lockett was more imposing than either brown or carey. he also played ff unlike anyone else and remains the only player to net a brownlow from that position.

when baldock came to the saints in 1987 stopped lockett leading out from the goal-square. the big bloke was having too many shots from impossible angles.

doc made him stand about 25 metres out giving plugger the option of leading out, dropping back leading left or leading right.

how many games did you see him play for us, olb?

[sunsaint]

trying to compare eras is always dangerous.
Its not so much whether Plugger would be good in todays game, he would be.
But the rules would crucify him, Plugger would dispose of his opponents prior to his leads to get the break. One on one with a high ball coming in, he couldnt be budged or bumped out of position, and used a backward swinging left arm to the head/body of opponents on many occassions.

One game I will always remember as a great spectacle of Footy was a sunny day at Waverley during the eighties. Lockett and Lynch had a shoot out in a close Fitzroy win. Might have been '89
The 2nd elimination final in '91 again at waverley against geelong was a huge day. Plugger got 9 but Brownless matched him and got the cats over the line. I remember they smashed Burke and Harvey that day. That 91 side was one of the best teams ever fielded by the red white and black.

[bigcarl]

you're right. plugger would have to modify his game to play nowadays. might not get away with being as physical as he was.

then again, his opponents wouldn't have been able to employ as many of the scragging tactics they used to get away with against him so it's a double-edged sword.

with the no hands in the back rule he might even have a crack at 200 goals

silvagni was like an octopus when he played lockett. used to be all over him with all eight arms.

so the big champion would have to modify the way he played. the same could be said of other past champions such as leigh matthews, brereton, ditterich and others.

they'd all still get a game, but they'd spend more time at the tribunal

[st.byron]

I can understand the comparison with Jonathon Brown Yipper. Both with tremendous physicality and athleticism.
Brown is more like Carey I reckon, (Carey was also a freak and I reckon the best contested mark I've seen) and even Hall plays in a similar way in that they're happy to move up as far as the wing. A reflection of the way playing CHF has changed.
But as Carl posted, Lockett's the only one to win a Brownlow from FF and there was something malicious about him that the others don't have. There've been plenty of players who had a nasty streak, (Robbie Muir take a bow) but none to combine it with the incredible skill, speed and athleticism of Plugger. On top of that he was a deadeye kick. Not enough superlatives really. Simply the best.

[crowjelly]

[quote="Eastern.[/quote]

Plugger was/is 190cm or 6'3", although I'm told that 2" extra would make a world of difference !![/quote]

Having the extra 2" was what gave him his knick name!

[Beej]

There is nobody in the game today who you could compare to Plugger.

you're right about that. lockett was more imposing than either brown or carey. he also played ff unlike anyone else and remains the only player to net a brownlow from that position.

when baldock came to the saints in 1987 stopped lockett leading out from the goal-square. the big bloke was having too many shots from impossible angles.

doc made him stand about 25 metres out giving plugger the option of leading out, dropping back leading left or leading right.

how many games did you see him play for us, olb?

I would've seen 15 of his 19 years in the game both at St Kilda and Sydney.

He was the quintessential full-forward.

Make no mistake, I loved the man. It's not as if I don't hold him in extremely high regard. I have the feeling you seem to think that I don't appreciate what he could do. I'm fully aware of his ability and just how talented he was - he was a genius. In terms of talent and ability, pound for pound, I have not seen a better footballer. I adored him, I wore his number on my back until he ditched us. Settled.

It's just my view that with these changing times that we won't see a player of his ilk ever again. First of all, you won't see anyone of his size ever play AFL again, regardless of how talented he is with the footy in his hands.

A player of his size and ability will have to make do with kicking 180 goals a season in some country competition. Is there anyone running around today who is 191cms and 108kgs? The body-shape of footballers has changed. These days they need to cover a lot more ground than Plugger ever had to, and thus have thinner, more athletic and more muscular physiques to cope with the demands of today. You think any coach in the league would allow their full-forward to just sit in the goal-square and not chase his opponent?

The whole champ in one era must be a champ in another era is way off the mark though.

If Dick Reynolds was re-incarnated today as a 20 year old, he's not going to drop-kick his way to three Brownlow Medals like he did when he was in his prime is he? No.

Can you imagine Chris Judd running around in the 1930s? They'd throw him in jail for being some sort of male-witch such is his ability. People of that time would never have seen anything like him, not in their wildest dreams.

[bigcarl]

OLB it's all right mate, you're entitled to your opinion ... i just respectfully disagree.

if a 25-year-old plugger was around and uncontracted there'd be 15 clubs knocking on his door. if he played for us kosi would be straight back in the ruck, much as i love kosi.

[Beej]

OLB it's all right mate, you're entitled to your opinion ... i just respectfully disagree.

if a 25-year-old plugger was around and uncontracted there'd be 15 clubs knocking on his door

All just a matter of opinion. I know exactly where you and everyone else who disagrees with me is coming from.

At the end of the day, it all boils down to how much we think the game has changed.

[st.byron]

It's just my view that with these changing times that we won't see a player of his ilk ever again. First of all, you won't see anyone of his size ever play AFL again, regardless of how talented he is with the footy in his hands.

A player of his size and ability will have to make do with kicking 180 goals a season in some country competition. Is there anyone running around today who is 191cms and 108kgs? The body-shape of footballers has changed. These days they need to cover a lot more ground than Plugger ever had to, and thus have thinner, more athletic and more muscular physiques to cope with the demands of today. You think any coach in the league would allow their full-forward to just sit in the goal-square and not chase his opponent?

The whole champ in one era must be a champ in another era is way off the mark though.

If Dick Reynolds was re-incarnated today as a 20 year old, he's not going to drop-kick his way to three Brownlow Medals like he did when he was in his prime is he? No.

Can you imagine Chris Judd running around in the 1930s? They'd throw him in jail for being some sort of male-witch such is his ability. People of that time would never have seen anything like him, not in their wildest dreams.

I think you're right OLB that we'll never see his ilk again and that 190cms and 108kg would not happen today. One of the things that made Plugger so exciting was the fact that he was 108kg and was still so athletic. Watching him leap over a pack was like watching a lump of iron launch itself into the air and come down on some poor bastard underneath. Unstoppable and totally dangerous.
I also think what made him so compelling was his bad attitude. Off the field as much as on it. When he was a Saint, he was bad on and off the field. No player today would get away with the off field behaviour that Plugger got away with. (except perhaps Cousins, but even he's pushed the envelope too far)

[yipper]

OLB you're ability to compile great video package is just phenomenal - can you do a Plugger one?? I respect your viewpoint and know where your coming from. I just firmly believe that the game ha not changed that much that a young Tony Lockett would not still forge a superb career in today's game. There is always room for a freak in the game - look at Judd!!!