Going on trade posts almost every players name has been put up at some point in time (i think max, banger, hayes, and chips the only exclusions).
What are the odds of five trades all paying off, let alone 10-15?
The way to win a flag is not just through a team list - it's won by ensuring a maximum output by all players, playing to a workable plan - this is what separates top echelon coaches from also rans.
A good coach will also turn an apparently poor list into a good team -look at what craig has been able to get from his list, look at laidley
Speculating on trading is just wishful thinking -hoping for a quick easy fix.
Will Milney be de-listed at the end of the year??
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desertsaint
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BAM! (shhhh)
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Funny how these "should we get rid of so and so" threads referring to walk-up start players pop up the week after a loss.
Milne can be frustrating. He's an offense first, second and third player, makes some mindblowing decisions with the ball at times, and is never going to make the transition from small forward to midfielder.
His position has been used by other teams as a development position for some very good players... so we ask the question, is he a list clogger? Could the short term pain be offset by long term gain by playing a Jack Steven in his place?
Thing is that he's actually very good at what he does. He's by no means one of the best small forwards. The best small forwards run through the midfield ala Chapman, Johnson (and while he plays the ground game, Steve Johnson should probably be considered a mid size), Akermanis, (it's what we're trying to do with Schneider as well) and those that don't provide forward pressure ala Rioli or Davey... but other than the tackling. Milney is a fantastic crumber. That he's got the goal return, and assist return he does on an offensively starved team is a pretty big statement.
IMO, if someone's willing to put up a return come trade week, it's certainly worth exploring... but I also think he doesn't get enough respect for the offense he does manage to provide, the option he's always trying to be, and the workrate he puts in. I'm willing to say goodbye if there's a reason for it, but I haven't seen that reason in these threads yet.
Milne can be frustrating. He's an offense first, second and third player, makes some mindblowing decisions with the ball at times, and is never going to make the transition from small forward to midfielder.
His position has been used by other teams as a development position for some very good players... so we ask the question, is he a list clogger? Could the short term pain be offset by long term gain by playing a Jack Steven in his place?
Thing is that he's actually very good at what he does. He's by no means one of the best small forwards. The best small forwards run through the midfield ala Chapman, Johnson (and while he plays the ground game, Steve Johnson should probably be considered a mid size), Akermanis, (it's what we're trying to do with Schneider as well) and those that don't provide forward pressure ala Rioli or Davey... but other than the tackling. Milney is a fantastic crumber. That he's got the goal return, and assist return he does on an offensively starved team is a pretty big statement.
IMO, if someone's willing to put up a return come trade week, it's certainly worth exploring... but I also think he doesn't get enough respect for the offense he does manage to provide, the option he's always trying to be, and the workrate he puts in. I'm willing to say goodbye if there's a reason for it, but I haven't seen that reason in these threads yet.
"Everything comes to he who hustles while he waits"
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HarveysDeciple
Milne looks better because those around hin have been poor this year. If we were travelling better Milne would look more like the average player he is.HarveysDeciple wrote:tell me when being a match winner doesn't count?StSteven wrote:
PS Milne looks good because his teammates don't. He may be a match winner at times.....but was he when it counts and the problem is we don't win enough matches!!!!. He has a lot of mates though. Clean out time I am afraid.
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HarveysDeciple
so kicking 44 goals sometimes looks good? and sometimes is poor?StSteven wrote:Milne looks better because those around hin have been poor this year. If we were travelling better Milne would look more like the average player he is.HarveysDeciple wrote:tell me when being a match winner doesn't count?StSteven wrote:
PS Milne looks good because his teammates don't. He may be a match winner at times.....but was he when it counts and the problem is we don't win enough matches!!!!. He has a lot of mates though. Clean out time I am afraid.
do other small forwards do better?
have other small forwards ever done better......and who?
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HarveysDeciple
So why dont you get rid of the players around him if they are worse or is that to logical?StSteven wrote:Milne looks better because those around hin have been poor this year. If we were travelling better Milne would look more like the average player he is.HarveysDeciple wrote:tell me when being a match winner doesn't count?StSteven wrote:
PS Milne looks good because his teammates don't. He may be a match winner at times.....but was he when it counts and the problem is we don't win enough matches!!!!. He has a lot of mates though. Clean out time I am afraid.
Why define him as a "small forward". Call him a forward (because that's what he is) and then there are plenty to compare. Milne does not look so good then. Other "small forwards" usually are playing a role in the mid field. Milney's role is too uni-dimensional. Even if he plays it well, it is not enough in today's game. Compare the ladder leader's "small forwards", Chapman, Ablett (less so lately), Stokes, Lonergan, Prismall. I would have any of them before Milne.
But hey, I don't know why i care to debate this. If we think Milne is a forward that will help win a premiership then we can just dream on as we have been for five years. Time to get tough or perish.
But hey, I don't know why i care to debate this. If we think Milne is a forward that will help win a premiership then we can just dream on as we have been for five years. Time to get tough or perish.
Last edited by StSteven on Tue 12 Aug 2008 5:12pm, edited 1 time in total.
He is a small forward just as Rooy and Fev are key forwards. Surely that isnt hard to understand. Why dont you answer my question if you have the time.StSteven wrote:Why define him as a "small forward". Call him a forward (because that's what he is) and then there are plenty to compare. Milne does not look so good then.
But hey, I don't know why i care to debate this. If we think Milne is a forward that will help win a premiership then we can just dream on as we have been for five years. Time to get tough or perish.
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BAM! (shhhh)
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He's 12th in the AFL in goals, and he's got 14 assists to go along with that on a team that ranks 11th in the AFL in scoring. Milne stacks up against forwards at large better than he stacks up against small forwards. Take forwards as a whole, and you see a lot of unnacountable one dimensional players who aren't producing at Milne's level. It's when you consider the bigger picture that the flaws come to the fore... what other smalls are doing that he's not.StSteven wrote:Why define him as a "small forward". Call him a forward (because that's what he is) and then there are plenty to compare. Milne does not look so good then.
But hey, I don't know why i care to debate this. If we think Milne is a forward that will help win a premiership then we can just dream on as we have been for five years. Time to get tough or perish.
He's too small to play as a key forward, and doesn't make up for it through leading or through marking (though to his credit, he regularly provides an option... I get far more frustrated by others kicking to Milne with 2 bigger guys on him than by him not working to win the ball). He's not a good enough tackler to play in the midfield, and so makes an ideal candidate for other teams to try and match their runners up on.
On the upside, he roves packs in the forward line pretty well, contests or ruck taps. He leads and makes his man work to cover him, and he's never given up on learning to tackle... it's just never quite worked out for him.
But hey, making blanket statements like "we can't win a premiership with Milne as a forward" is much easier than considering the big picture (West Coast had an awesome forward line didn't they? If only we could replace him with someone like that Sydney guy... Schneider I think his name was). Of the many things standing between the Saints and a premiership, none of them is that Steven Milne is getting a game in the forward line.
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St. Luke
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Quite frankly I think we're missing what the Lion out of the Wizard of Oz was missing. Heart!rodgerfox wrote:I do.St. Luke wrote:If the team look alive, and they didn't on Saturday night...they ARE dangerous! I seriously don't know what's holding back their performance...or their desire to perform. That's the disappointing thing.
When they created LENNY HAYES (in the shadow of Harvs) they forgot to break the mold (again)- hence the Supremely Incredible Jack Steven!!
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HarveysDeciple
Why define him as a small forward? Because he is one that's why!StSteven wrote:Why define him as a "small forward". Call him a forward (because that's what he is) and then there are plenty to compare. Milne does not look so good then. Other "small forwards" usually are playing a role in the mid field. Milney's role is too uni-dimensional. Even if he plays it well, it is not enough in today's game. Compare the ladder leader's "small forwards", Chapman, Ablett (less so lately), Stokes, Lonergan, Prismall. I would have any of them before Milne.
But hey, I don't know why i care to debate this. If we think Milne is a forward that will help win a premiership then we can just dream on as we have been for five years. Time to get tough or perish.
He isn't a marking target....he will never do a Gehrig or a Lloyd and kick 100 goals because small forwards don't do that.
If Milne played for the Cats he would probably be an even better player.
and you have Lonergan as a small forward for the Cats.......do you know how big he is?
PS Prismall and Ablett are onballers.
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St DAC
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Well you're perfectly entitled to your view Bob. No problem there. I'm entitled to mine, which is that I think you're wrong. And no doubt you think I'm wrong.saintbob wrote:I'll shut up, when he's gone.
Your right when you say I can't name a replacement, currently we don't have one. Saying that I'd rather take a punt on a kid than keep a one trick pony like Milne.
GT had worked him out and that's why he had him up for trade, because while he has a great goal ratio, the bad side of his game has far worse effects on the team .
Such is life ... but I betcha Milney stays on the list. 50 goal a year forwards are too hard to replace, and as you've said, we don't have another one.
Last edited by St DAC on Tue 12 Aug 2008 5:59pm, edited 1 time in total.
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so you have established he wins matches...yet you continue to say that he doesnt win it when it counts???StSteven wrote:From RL."Riewoldt, Koschitzke, Nick Dal Santo, Leigh Montagna, Luke Ball, Jason Gram, Brendon Goddard, Sam Fisher, Sam Gilbert, they're the core. They're not going anywhere. And we have just got to keep adding to them. You don't trade that quality," he said
No mention of Milne!
PS Milne looks good because his teammates don't. He may be a match winner at times.....but was he when it counts and the problem is we don't win enough matches!!!!. He has a lot of mates though. Clean out time I am afraid.
im confused...are you two?
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To the top
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A senior player at 28 (?) years of age with over 150 (?) games who lacks leadership skills, being one of the very first to go missing in action when the pressure is on.
Does not have the ability or the skills to lift to another level and contribute by fiercely and ferociously attacking the ball and the man to inspire a team in need of inspiration.
Can not contribute to mid-field rotations because of a lack of hardness, a lack of pace and a lack of strength.
A one position show pony who relies on everything other than a furious and ferocious attack on the ball and the player.
Part of the problem, including because he contributes significantly to the historic and damaging culture of the club - individual performance measured exclusively by the number of goals you kick - not what you bring to the team.
Does not have the ability or the skills to lift to another level and contribute by fiercely and ferociously attacking the ball and the man to inspire a team in need of inspiration.
Can not contribute to mid-field rotations because of a lack of hardness, a lack of pace and a lack of strength.
A one position show pony who relies on everything other than a furious and ferocious attack on the ball and the player.
Part of the problem, including because he contributes significantly to the historic and damaging culture of the club - individual performance measured exclusively by the number of goals you kick - not what you bring to the team.
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milney044
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Well who really knows what Ross will do but thanks a lot guys, i don't normally start worrying about trade week til October..its not even September..
Anyway, obviously you all know my opinion, frankly if Milney was our biggest problem at the moment we'd be laughing. Facts are he's pretty minor in terms of where we're heading. He's the crumber, the icing, the team lifter. Jeez when Aaron Davey or Didak have an off game you don't even hear about it, when Milney has a bad game its plastered everywhere.
The team had a bad game mind you, not just Milne our new Full Forward who attracts 3 opponents. No mention where our other TWO FREE PLAYERS were or why our kicking is so pathetic and why for 3/4 of the game MILNE, KOSCHITZKE AND RIEWOLDT were ALL played out of position. Ah yes, that ones Milne's fault too.
Anyway, that was Saturday night...seriously Milne kicking 40+ goals this year is exactly what was being asked of him at the start of the year. HE IS A 175CM 80KG SMALL FORWARD and like it or not he aint going to lay 4 tackles, set up 2 goals and kick 3 every week.. mind you he does the last 2 pretty regularly for someone of his pay and size. As i've mentioned, he's the icing on the cake and the way the team's been going lately, we're talking cup cake size, therefore he aint going to have the biggest impact.
He's not going to win us games every time it counts, but he's done it on 3 ocassions this year and along with Riewoldt is the only one to have really done this this year. Without his performance against the Tiges, his efforts against the Roos or his last quarter dominance against the dons, we'd currently be sitting outside the 8.
I for one wouldn't be trading Milne as we wouldn't get anything better to do us any favours and we'd be minusing 40 goals off our tally. Not too smart when our target forward is unlikely to read 60 goals for the year.
Milney is a Sainter through and through.
Anyway, obviously you all know my opinion, frankly if Milney was our biggest problem at the moment we'd be laughing. Facts are he's pretty minor in terms of where we're heading. He's the crumber, the icing, the team lifter. Jeez when Aaron Davey or Didak have an off game you don't even hear about it, when Milney has a bad game its plastered everywhere.
The team had a bad game mind you, not just Milne our new Full Forward who attracts 3 opponents. No mention where our other TWO FREE PLAYERS were or why our kicking is so pathetic and why for 3/4 of the game MILNE, KOSCHITZKE AND RIEWOLDT were ALL played out of position. Ah yes, that ones Milne's fault too.
Anyway, that was Saturday night...seriously Milne kicking 40+ goals this year is exactly what was being asked of him at the start of the year. HE IS A 175CM 80KG SMALL FORWARD and like it or not he aint going to lay 4 tackles, set up 2 goals and kick 3 every week.. mind you he does the last 2 pretty regularly for someone of his pay and size. As i've mentioned, he's the icing on the cake and the way the team's been going lately, we're talking cup cake size, therefore he aint going to have the biggest impact.
He's not going to win us games every time it counts, but he's done it on 3 ocassions this year and along with Riewoldt is the only one to have really done this this year. Without his performance against the Tiges, his efforts against the Roos or his last quarter dominance against the dons, we'd currently be sitting outside the 8.
I for one wouldn't be trading Milne as we wouldn't get anything better to do us any favours and we'd be minusing 40 goals off our tally. Not too smart when our target forward is unlikely to read 60 goals for the year.
Milney is a Sainter through and through.
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bigcarl
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milne's won us at least four games this season and is still one of the best small fowards going around.
he should never be our sole forward marking target ... as he was a number of times on saturday night ... but that is a separate issue.
we have many problems but milne isn't one of them.
i'm more concerned about the forward set up, the gameplan and the seeming lack of passion showed by an entire team. the pressure seems too much for us in must-win games.
he should never be our sole forward marking target ... as he was a number of times on saturday night ... but that is a separate issue.
we have many problems but milne isn't one of them.
i'm more concerned about the forward set up, the gameplan and the seeming lack of passion showed by an entire team. the pressure seems too much for us in must-win games.
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