Forward set up

[To the top]

Agreed Teflon.

In regards the comment re players behind the contest for the ball, all teams do this currently leaving only a couple of players in "traditional" positions and as forward targets. Where did Jones run Franklin down in the game in which we beat Hawthorn last year?

Defence is feeding the ball backwards to a player in space, and then delivery either further back to an unmarked player, accross the ground to an unmarked player or to a lead up player.

The lead up players must have space created - and with teams fit enough to flood into defensive positions this is more difficult - hence more options are needed - or more players with the skill to run into attacking positions, lead up taking an opponent, double back then push off that opponent knowing where the space is and where the ball is to be delivered to. And to keep working like that regardless of whether you are honoured or not.

It will be recognised that I am not a fan of Milne, and I am not seduced by his goals (his bags are significantly against teams lower on the table). The reason for this is a lack of defensive pressure, the pressure we see other small forwards apply in the modern game because they cover the ground very quickly, harrass and have skills to win a ball when they should not.

The reason this forward pressure by the "crumbing forwards" is required is to disrupt the orderly movement of the ball backwards to the spare player(s) who sit there for that purpose - and given the "receivers" are usually damaging kicks you must put at least some level of pressure on them - Milne can not do that - he is exclusively an opportunist goal kicker of some dimension.

I also have a problem with Baker attempting to combat the type of "crumbing forward" most sides have today, so Baker's only position is in the mid-field and I see that as a problem.

You have to create opportunity, not be handed opportunity and that is the difference with our forward supports under Riewoldt and Koschitzke.

Look at the guy Carlton debuted tonight - that is the "crumbing forward" model necessary in 2009.

He is probably lucky to weigh 70kg ringing wet, but he gets there, he harrasses and he creates opportunity because he creates the time for the cavalry to arrive and for others then to put the icing on his work.

St Kilda need such a player.

Once we have such a player our forward entries will become far more efficient than they are currently.

[bigcarl]

I read with interest Mark Robinson (a clown but he made a good point) HS article on how Richmond are ok offensively but dismal defensively and we just saw it tonight....they apply NO pressure.

i just think richmond aren't that good full stop but carlton was pretty impressive offensively and have unearthed a couple of promising goalkickers.

[bigcarl]

In regards the comment re players behind the contest for the ball, all teams do this currently leaving only a couple of players in "traditional" positions and as forward targets.

it's a matter of degrees and i think we overdo it. sometimes we leave no-one or just stephen milne as a marking target.

our forwards, i'm sure, are told often to be accountable.

there is something to be said for that but it shouldn't be a forward's primary focus, imo.

taken too far it leads to your forwards following their opponents all over the ground like backmen.

i think a better way is if they are told "make your opponent accountable for you" . in other words, get clear, demand the ball and kick a goal.

[lefty]

Agreed with the OP's comments.... I think most agree or realise this problem

[Saints94]

Milney used to be one of the most accurate set shot kick for goal.................. now he is just crap

[Longwayfromhome]

I'll take a crap kick for goal that racks up 60 per year any time. Don't care that he's a crap kick at set shots. He plays on most times anyway.
Thank goodness GT never had the chance to get rid of him. Next to Roo, he's the only real forward we have.

[Teflon]

I read with interest Mark Robinson (a clown but he made a good point) HS article on how Richmond are ok offensively but dismal defensively and we just saw it tonight....they apply NO pressure.

i just think richmond aren't that good full stop but carlton was pretty impressive offensively and have unearthed a couple of promising goalkickers.

Im not sold on carlton just yet.

[bigcarl]

how did everyone see kosi's game?

[SainterK]

No-one would be surprised that I thought it was a good game from Kosi,
I thought he was one of the guys who influenced our turnaround...

Heaps of quality marks, some greatly contested, and THAT mark!

Further to that, he can take some confidence away from his peformance which I think was sorely needed.

[bigcarl]

Heaps of quality marks, some greatly contested, and THAT mark!

i thought he was good, particularly during his brief spell in the ruck and at chf.

to me he still looks a bit lost when asked to play deep in the forward line though. not quick enough on the lead.

[Teflon]

Heaps of quality marks, some greatly contested, and THAT mark!

i thought he was good, particularly during his brief spell in the ruck and at chf.

to me he still looks a bit lost when asked to play deep in the forward line though. not quick enough on the lead.

plenty of forwards home tonght Carl.....thought we looked relatively flexible up fwd tonight.

[Solar]

Heaps of quality marks, some greatly contested, and THAT mark!

i thought he was good, particularly during his brief spell in the ruck and at chf.

to me he still looks a bit lost when asked to play deep in the forward line though. not quick enough on the lead.

agreed
the forward line was perfect when

kosi roamed around 70 out and followed the ball in and either gardiner or roo plaed full forward.

Mini was very good and gave us that tackling pressure.

[bigcarl]

Heaps of quality marks, some greatly contested, and THAT mark!

i thought he was good, particularly during his brief spell in the ruck and at chf.

to me he still looks a bit lost when asked to play deep in the forward line though. not quick enough on the lead.

plenty of forwards home tonght Carl.....thought we looked relatively flexible up fwd tonight.

we were okay. riewoldt was well beaten on the night, which will be the exception rather than the rule this season.

i was concerned at half time when we'd had eight more inside 50s than them, but trailed by 8 points ... something that ross remarked on in his press conference.

that's good. at least he is aware that we've got to be more efficient at putting the score on the board.

thankfully it clicked into place in the third quarter.

[Teflon]

Heaps of quality marks, some greatly contested, and THAT mark!

i thought he was good, particularly during his brief spell in the ruck and at chf.

to me he still looks a bit lost when asked to play deep in the forward line though. not quick enough on the lead.

plenty of forwards home tonght Carl.....thought we looked relatively flexible up fwd tonight.

we were okay. riewoldt was well beaten on the night, which will be the exception rather than the rule this season.

i was concerned at half time when we'd had eight more inside 50s than them, but trailed by 8 points ... something that ross remarked on in his press conference.

that's good. at least he is aware that we've got to be more efficient at putting the score on the board.

thankfully it clicked into place in the third quarter.

the point is tonight throws the whole "just leave a forward at home" argument out the window - they were home tonight.

sure they didnt function perfectly but I think its time people looked for the REAL reasons to that and not symptoms.

Id think any AFL coach would also know efficiency at putting a score on tne board is important - again its easy to say stuff like that...harder to come up with real solutions...at a time when you are retiring Coleman Medallists.

we werent perfect but the signs were better - we were NOT Roo focussed and still managed to get out to a 7 goal lead against a side who are notoriously frugal.

We did well in that respect IMO.

[bigcarl]

sure they didnt function perfectly but I think its time people looked for the REAL reasons to that and not symptoms.

so what are the real reasons in your opinion?

[Teflon]

sure they didnt function perfectly but I think its time people looked for the REAL reasons to that and not symptoms.

so what are the real reasons in your opinion?

Not just that "no ones home"

Id argue:

1. ball movement into fwd 50 has been evolving - Lyon indicated in his press conference they want to move this to fwds faster (again dispelling lazy myth peddlers who simply want to say we are "Sydney")

2. Personell - weve lost a gun fwd. They are hard to replace and it takes time as a unit to connect. I still dont think Kos/Roo have their groove yet...Im praying tonight for Kosi....we took a real step toward getting it.

3. Fwd defensive pressure - great coaching tonight...Im not a Mqualter fan but it was a smart move by Lyon to try this (I would not have thought of it)

4. Goal kicking - still poor and Lenny made special mention of this before the game -Montagna, Milne and Gramm misses were very gettable tonight (sneider shoulda had a shot that close...)

so theres 4 areas that help improve the fwd line IMO.

Your turn.

[bigcarl]

sure they didnt function perfectly but I think its time people looked for the REAL reasons to that and not symptoms.

so what are the real reasons in your opinion?

Not just that "no ones home"

when did i ever say it's simply "no-one's home".

it's a combination of things and i could show you posts of mine over the past six months that touch on everyone of the points you have raised above.

in fact here's a post of mine from march 8

Quite simply, our lack of scoring at times can be put down to two main reasons:

1) Moving the ball too slowly upfield
2) Making better decisions and using the ball smarter.

both of those are valid. here are a few more.

3) NUMBERS BEHIND THE BALL/GAMEPLAN:

It is impossible to move the ball quickly to your forwards if you don't actually have a forward line in place.

all too often our forwards end up on our half back line, leaving them too rooted and too far from the action when there is a turnover.

"make your opponent accountable for you" should be the directive to our forwards, not "be accountable for your opponent".

that way we put them on the backfoot rather than starting on the defensive ourselves.

4) PERSONNEL:

there seems to have been a reluctance from ross to commit further quality resources to the forward line,

the experiment with gilbert and the freeing up of some guns like bj, s. fisher and gram to perhaps go forward looks a step in the right direction.

5) OVER-RELIANCE ON RIEWOLDT:

this is intertwined with 4.

roo's a wonderful player, but needing him to be franklin and roughhead rolled into one is asking an awful lot.

we still haven't adequetly replaced gehrig and (if roo is to play chf) we need a full forward who can kick 70 goals to challenge imo.

has kosi turned the corner?

is gilbert the man?

can we expect to see bj playing forward regularly?

we'll find out.

[Teflon]

sure they didnt function perfectly but I think its time people looked for the REAL reasons to that and not symptoms.

so what are the real reasons in your opinion?

Not just that "no ones home"

Id argue:

1. ball movement into fwd 50 has been evolving - Lyon indicated in his press conference they want to move this to fwds faster (again dispelling lazy myth peddlers who simply want to say we are "Sydney")

2. Personell - weve lost a gun fwd. They are hard to replace and it takes time as a unit to connect. I still dont think Kos/Roo have their groove yet...Im praying tonight for Kosi....we took a real step toward getting it.

3. Fwd defensive pressure - great coaching tonight...Im not a Mqualter fan but it was a smart move by Lyon to try this (I would not have thought of it)

4. Goal kicking - still poor and Lenny made special mention of this before the game -Montagna, Milne and Gramm misses were very gettable tonight (sneider shoulda had a shot that close...)

so theres 4 areas that help improve the fwd line IMO.

Your turn.

when did i ever say it's simply "no-one's home".

it's a combination of things and i could show you posts of mine over the past six months that touch on everyone of the points you have raised above.

in fact here's a post of mine from march 8

Quite simply, our lack of scoring at times can be put down to two main reasons:

1) Moving the ball too slowly upfield
2) Making better decisions and using the ball smarter.

both of those are valid. here are a few more.

3) NUMBERS BEHIND THE BALL/GAMEPLAN:

It is impossible to move the ball quickly to your forwards if you don't actually have a forward line in place.

all too often our forwards end up on our half back line, leaving them too rooted and too far from the action when there is a turnover.

"make your opponent accountable for you" should be the directive to our forwards, not "be accountable for your opponent".

that way we put them on the backfoot rather than starting on the defensive ourselves.

4) PERSONNEL:

there seems to have been a reluctance from ross to commit further quality resources to the forward line,

the experiment with gilbert and the freeing up of some guns like bj, s. fisher and gram to perhaps go forward looks a step in the right direction.

5) OVER-RELIANCE ON RIEWOLDT:

this is intertwined with 4.

roo's a wonderful player, but needing him to be franklin and roughhead rolled into one is asking an awful lot.

we still haven't adequetly replaced gehrig and (if roo is to play chf) we need a full forward who can kick 70 goals to challenge imo.

has kosi turned the corner?

is gilbert the man?

can we expect to see bj playing forward regularly?

we'll find out.

well you can remove "numbers behind the ball" cause that wasnt our problem tonight imo.

[bigcarl]

well you can remove "numbers behind the ball" cause that wasnt our problem tonight imo.

that might be one of the reasons we won

[Teflon]

well you can remove "numbers behind the ball" cause that wasnt our problem tonight imo.

that might be one of the reasons we won

good call Carl - Id take it too.

[To the top]

As I have said prior, and again back on 16th March on this subject, I would play Kosi as the nominal CHF.

Do you see the reasons now?

Allows him the luxury of going to contests and pushing around the ground instead of sitting inside the F50 waiting on delivery and being contested by multiple players also looking to block him from the contest - the mark he took was over 2 Sydney players.

With Riewoldt in a similar role but more mid-field orientated they will cause mayhem.

When rucking last night, Kosi was just too short and it was a waste of resource to have him jumping at ruck contests.

In terms of forward set up, and this will attract comment, Milne kicked 3 opportunist goals, one off a Schnieder fly to disrupt 2 of Sydney's bigger players and spill the ball and another over the back on the goal line.

What I did note was that Milne jogged out last with a football in his hands and continued to jog well behind the bunch, taking no part in the periodic faster work and taking no part in the end to end work, too busy tying up his shoe laces until shots on goal were the drill when he immediately had his hand in the air.

His only interest was in kicking on goal.

This is a senior player - and the start by the team was typical of that preparation by Milne.

Yes, he kicked 3 goals and he did put some defensive pressure on but in today's game you need to be absolute - and have a flexibility about your game as Gwilt showed when moving to defence after Raph Clarke went off.

Just watch next match!

[sunsaint]

so if I read this right you want to play two CHF's ?
I would say the only reason Kosi was up the ground more than Roo was because Roo was not ready for rnd 1.

Sorry but I just dont think that Kosi has the same run as Roo.
Rix was a better ruck than Kosi.
So its back to the goal square for him at the moment.

[bigcarl]

What I did note was that Milne jogged out last with a football in his hands and continued to jog well behind the bunch, taking no part in the periodic faster work and taking no part in the end to end work, too busy tying up his shoe laces until shots on goal were the drill when he immediately had his hand in the air.

His only interest was in kicking on goal.

This is a senior player - and the start by the team was typical of that preparation by Milne.

Yes, he kicked 3 goals and he did put some defensive pressure on but in today's game you need to be absolute - and have a flexibility about your game as Gwilt showed when moving to defence after Raph Clarke went off.

Just watch next match!

that's the beauty of milne. loves a goal and is a natural at kicking them.

we'd have had trouble kicking a winning score without him there.

3 goals in a tight game wins you the match and i didn't see too many others sticking their hands up to kick them.

[To the top]

Big Carl, that is the reason we have not been successful.

Concentration on goal kickers instead of team.

If Milne (for example) is not in the team, the ball is still in the F50 so someone will be contesting it.

This "he kicks two goals a game" counts for jacks crackers.

Given our inefficiency with F50 entries, as mentioned by none other than the Coach and mentioned as an area for improvement, what part does Milne play in this DEFICIENCY?

And that said, given the inefficient usage (ie NO SCORING FROM F50 ENTRIES WHICH IS OUR PROBLEM IDENTIFIED BY THE COACH) who is to say someone else will not make better use of these opportunities than is Milne - who is the only player we have who is exclusively a forward - including defensively by disrupting an orderly bringing of the pill out of defence?

The Coach has identified the concerns I have - and I go one step further and try to identify why we have this F50 inefficiency the Coach says we need to rectify.

And, yes, with Milne as a senior player in the team and with it being the first game of a new season I was astounded by Milne's preparation after the side entered the playing arena.

He should be leading, not doing his own thing.

And is that indicative of the mind set and the reason why so many asociated with St Kilda fete a player who plays exclusively in a forward pocket and averages 2 goals a game?

This is a team game.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Milney used to be one of the most accurate set shot kick for goal.................. now he is just crap

no he is actually a good set shot