Why are we losing the contested ball?

[Mr Magic]

Lenny played on Watson both times. RL even talked about it on the couch discussing whether they should have shifted Jones onto Watson. Lyon would have preferred to but deferred to Elshaug who preferred a head-to-head matchup. I don't think Ball played much in the centre in the second game. I believe his TOG for that game was<50% and he spent most of it up forward.

IIRC, Ball was moved onto the HFF in the second & third quarters (I believe to establish whether he could play the 'mini' role).
Unfortunately for us and Ball, Essendon chose to run the ball out of their backline through him and he floundered in their wake.
They continually switched play to isolate him and just ran away from him.

That game probably confiremd in the minds of our coaching staff that the only position he could play in our current system was as an 'in & under' midfielder.

so played out of position for one game and the loss was his fault.
And watson tore strips off NDS but that doesnt fit in with $amoht'$ argument.
as with stats being twisted to suit, the same goes with prejudiced memory

Predictable and boring response from the poster that sits on the sidelines waiting for oportunities to take cheap 'pot-shots' at teh Club/Coach.

Ball is earning a hell of a lot more at Collingwood than we were prepared to pay him.
That's a simple enough reason for him to have left.

[plugger66]

Lenny played on Watson both times. RL even talked about it on the couch discussing whether they should have shifted Jones onto Watson. Lyon would have preferred to but deferred to Elshaug who preferred a head-to-head matchup. I don't think Ball played much in the centre in the second game. I believe his TOG for that game was<50% and he spent most of it up forward.

IIRC, Ball was moved onto the HFF in the second & third quarters (I believe to establish whether he could play the 'mini' role).
Unfortunately for us and Ball, Essendon chose to run the ball out of their backline through him and he floundered in their wake.
They continually switched play to isolate him and just ran away from him.

That game probably confiremd in the minds of our coaching staff that the only position he could play in our current system was as an 'in & under' midfielder.

so played out of position for one game and the loss was his fault.
And watson tore strips off NDS but that doesnt fit in with $amoht'$ argument.
as with stats being twisted to suit, the same goes with prejudiced memory

Predictable and boring response from the poster that sits on the sidelines waiting for oportunities to take cheap 'pot-shots' at teh Club/Coach.

Ball is earning a hell of a lot more at Collingwood than we were prepared to pay him.
That's a simple enough reason for him to have left.

Yes that is the simple reason but not the correct reason.

[vacuous space]

I assume Ball leaving has more to do with the four guys who are clearly better than he is. Plus there's Jones who gets tagging roles, Ray and Gram play roles that Ball just can't. He probably saw Peake and Lovett coming in and wondered if he was ever going to get a game again. I suspsect he made the right move for his career. The money was an unintended bonus.

In terms of contested ball, I think those looking at Ball as a cause for our problems need to look harder. For the most part, our top four mids have been amazing in that area. Schneider and Ray have been really impressive recently. Our midfield is stacked and I wouldn't rate it the slightest of problems.

Now the forwards on the other hand - Milne and Mini had two groundballs each on Friday night. Kosi had one, Steven had none. Roo had four and Schneider had five, but I'm not sure how many of those were in the forward fifty. We're not going to win many games against good teams relying on marks inside fifty to get us over the line.

[bigcarl]

When Ball left everyone expected Armitage to fill the void as a similar type. Circumstances and injury have put an end to that.

Can Steven win inside ball or free someone else up to do it? He might be the missing link that gets it all humming.

[saintsRrising]

When Ball left everyone expected Armitage to fill the void as a similar type. .

I thought we wanted an extra runner in the team and that is why we picked up Lovett and Peake?

[plugger66]

When Ball left everyone expected Armitage to fill the void as a similar type. .

I thought we wanted an extra runner in the team and that is why we picked up Lovett and Peake?

BC may be right though. RL would have thought Armo may have been a 22 gamer this year then we would have had both. I doubt he only wanted runners after losing an inside mid.

[samoht]

Lenny played on Watson both times. RL even talked about it on the couch discussing whether they should have shifted Jones onto Watson. Lyon would have preferred to but deferred to Elshaug who preferred a head-to-head matchup. I don't think Ball played much in the centre in the second game. I believe his TOG for that game was<50% and he spent most of it up forward.

IIRC, Ball was moved onto the HFF in the second & third quarters (I believe to establish whether he could play the 'mini' role).
Unfortunately for us and Ball, Essendon chose to run the ball out of their backline through him and he floundered in their wake.
They continually switched play to isolate him and just ran away from him.

That game probably confiremd in the minds of our coaching staff that the only position he could play in our current system was as an 'in & under' midfielder.

so played out of position for one game and the loss was his fault.
And watson tore strips off NDS but that doesnt fit in with $amoht'$ argument.
as with stats being twisted to suit, the same goes with prejudiced memory

It's got nothing to do with prejudiced memory... this was posted straight after the second Essendon game last year... and people were arguing back then it seems if Ball was playing on Watson.
Seems they all agreed Ball started on Watson in the second game (I'm sure it was more than 6 mins).
In the first game Ball would have played longer on him... if my "prejudiced memory" serves me right.

[samoht]

Lenny played on Watson both times. RL even talked about it on the couch discussing whether they should have shifted Jones onto Watson. Lyon would have preferred to but deferred to Elshaug who preferred a head-to-head matchup. I don't think Ball played much in the centre in the second game. I believe his TOG for that game was<50% and he spent most of it up forward.

IIRC, Ball was moved onto the HFF in the second & third quarters (I believe to establish whether he could play the 'mini' role).
Unfortunately for us and Ball, Essendon chose to run the ball out of their backline through him and he floundered in their wake.
They continually switched play to isolate him and just ran away from him.

That game probably confiremd in the minds of our coaching staff that the only position he could play in our current system was as an 'in & under' midfielder.

so played out of position for one game and the loss was his fault.
And watson tore strips off NDS but that doesnt fit in with $amoht'$ argument.
as with stats being twisted to suit, the same goes with prejudiced memory

It's got nothing to do with prejudiced memory... this was posted straight after the second Essendon game last year (see the forum link below)... and people were arguing back then it seems if Ball was playing on Watson.
2 people agreed with me that NDS spent some time on Watson too.

This is how NDS went by the way ... I quote from a review ..." ..he ran hard to firstly keep St Kilda in the game and then to try and win it. 27 disposals, 7 tackles and a goal were fair reward for effort "

So NDS was not disgraced (Watson had not "torn strips off" NDS - as you stated above) as your "prejudiced memory" perhaps would have it.

http://www.saintsational.com/forum/view ... 8478fa3b36

Seems they all agreed Ball started on Watson in the second game (I'm sure it was more than 6 mins).
In the first game Ball would have played longer on him... if my "prejudiced memory" serves me right.

...here's what bergholt/perfectionist posted re: the second game..

I thought Nick Dal Santo was on Jobe Watson for much of the time.

you could well be right - i just saw ball chasing him round a couple of times, and that was reinforced by a line in the age this morning.

We can trust the Age can't we ? ...
So don't be quick to criticise ... Ball was clearly not up to an encounter with Watson - when played in the centre he was reduced to chasing Watson around ... the facts not my prejudiced memory says it all.

[bigcarl]

When Ball left everyone expected Armitage to fill the void as a similar type. .

I thought we wanted an extra runner in the team and that is why we picked up Lovett and Peake?

BC may be right though. RL would have thought Armo may have been a 22 gamer this year then we would have had both. I doubt he only wanted runners after losing an inside mid.

Folks, you have seen a first here. Plugger concedes I might be right about something.

[plugger66]

When Ball left everyone expected Armitage to fill the void as a similar type. .

I thought we wanted an extra runner in the team and that is why we picked up Lovett and Peake?

BC may be right though. RL would have thought Armo may have been a 22 gamer this year then we would have had both. I doubt he only wanted runners after losing an inside mid.

Folks, you have seen a first here. Plugger concedes I might be right about something.

I dont think i ever say you are wrong. Its just that the things you mention re the forward line are never going happen whilst RL is coach because he makes it clear what type of coach he is by his actions.

[bigcarl]

When Ball left everyone expected Armitage to fill the void as a similar type. .

I thought we wanted an extra runner in the team and that is why we picked up Lovett and Peake?

BC may be right though. RL would have thought Armo may have been a 22 gamer this year then we would have had both. I doubt he only wanted runners after losing an inside mid.

Folks, you have seen a first here. Plugger concedes I might be right about something.

I dont think i ever say you are wrong. Its just that the things you mention re the forward line are never going happen whilst RL is coach because he makes it clear what type of coach he is by his actions.

well i've started on the midfield now. we're losing the contested ball and clearances at times and we've got to have it fixed for september.

what has changed since last season?

nothing, except we may be missing the grunt of a tough inside player like luke ball to help lenny out.

I'd see whether steven can either play that role or free up someone else to do so.

there is something about the kid that i cannot quite put my finger on that marks him as having a big future. there's just a bit of magic when he gets the ball ... often a goal.

he reminds me of someone.

[ThePunter]

Milne with class.

[bigcarl]

Milne with class.

Milne with strength maybe, but it's not him that i had in mind ... can't quite place it.

Milne does have class, though.

[Mr Magic]

Milne with class.

Milne with strength maybe, but it's not him that i had in mind ... can't quite place it.

Milne does have class, though.

Joel Selwood?

[bigcarl]

Milne with class.

Milne with strength maybe, but it's not him that i had in mind ... can't quite place it.

Milne does have class, though.

Joel Selwood?

it's not a current player .

he might be like selwood, but i wouldn't know him from a bar of soap. i'm no good on non st kilda players.

[plugger66]

When Ball left everyone expected Armitage to fill the void as a similar type. .

I thought we wanted an extra runner in the team and that is why we picked up Lovett and Peake?

BC may be right though. RL would have thought Armo may have been a 22 gamer this year then we would have had both. I doubt he only wanted runners after losing an inside mid.

Folks, you have seen a first here. Plugger concedes I might be right about something.

I dont think i ever say you are wrong. Its just that the things you mention re the forward line are never going happen whilst RL is coach because he makes it clear what type of coach he is by his actions.

well i've started on the midfield now. we're losing the contested ball and clearances at times and we've got to have it fixed for september.

what has changed since last season?

nothing, except we may be missing the grunt of a tough inside player like luke ball to help lenny out.

I'd see whether steven can either play that role or free up someone else to do so.

there is something about the kid that i cannot quite put my finger on that marks him as having a big future. there's just a bit of magic when he gets the ball ... often a goal.

he reminds me of someone.

I dont think he is ready yet. Put him now and he will be stuffed by finals time. I thought you like guys who could kick goals to play forward.

[Mr Magic]

Milne with class.

Milne with strength maybe, but it's not him that i had in mind ... can't quite place it.

Milne does have class, though.

Joel Selwood?

it's not a current player .

he might be like selwood, but i wouldn't know him from a bar of soap. i'm no good on non st kilda players.

Bruce Duperouzel?

[SainterK]

Schneider in the middle, Steven small forward?

[bigcarl]

I dont think he is ready yet. Put him now and he will be stuffed by finals time. I thought you like guys who could kick goals to play forward.

i do, but some onballers have the confidence and class to kick them anyway as well as dominate on the ball.

i do think we are missing some inside grunt that ball used to provide (for all his other failings). he was good at getting the pill out.

perhaps that is a secret to collingwood's success this season and somewhere that we can improve.

not saying steven is necessarily the man to play that role, but he could be.

or adding him to the mids rotation might free up cj or someone else to do it.

[vacuous space]

...we may be missing the grunt of a tough inside player like luke ball to help lenny out.

Lenny has plenty of help in the middle, at least as far as contested ball goes:

Goddard - 9.5 per game
Montagna - 8.9 per game
Dal Santo - 8.9 per game
Hayes - 8.6 per game

BJ, Dal and Joey were all down on their usual output. As was Gram. Peake didn't contribute much at the contests. Jones got destroyed. On the flip side, Ray and Schneider were good.

Steven had one contested possession which he got off a free kick. The midfield might be the long term place for him, but I think it's too soon for anything more than the occasional run on the ball.

[bigcarl]

...we may be missing the grunt of a tough inside player like luke ball to help lenny out.

Lenny has plenty of help in the middle, at least as far as contested ball goes:

Goddard - 9.5 per game
Montagna - 8.9 per game
Dal Santo - 8.9 per game
Hayes - 8.6 per game

BJ, Dal and Joey were all down on their usual output. As was Gram. Peake didn't contribute much at the contests. Jones got destroyed. On the flip side, Ray and Schneider were good.

Steven had one contested possession which he got off a free kick. The midfield might be the long term place for him, but I think it's too soon for anything more than the occasional run on the ball.

well they'd want to lift a notch on what i saw last week.

hawthorn dominated us around the ground and only accurate kicking kept us in it.

against collingwood, well, what can be said. carlton the same.

we're not winning in and under as effectively as last season and ball's loss probably has something to do with it.

[Mr Magic]

Maybe the stats we're looking at to compare is not 'contested possession', but 'clearances' and 'centre clearances'?

How are they tracking this season as against last season?