Lyon Promises Exciting Footy

[Sainternist]

some rock n roll footy!

saints to go from this:





to this

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hell yeah! if our footy can be as energic and passionate as the ramones played live, well we can't lose.

[rodgerfox]

So come out on Grand Final day and play entirely different to the game style that got you there, no matter what style of play... Thats what your asking for.


Rightio.

No, not at all.

But you need the flexibility in your game plan, structures and player mindset to be able to come out and play the type of game on a given day that is required to win a GF.

[bergholt]

But you need the flexibility in both game plan and player mindset to be able to come out and play the type of game on a given day that is required to win a GF.

to be fair, i think to an extent that's what happened. certainly things were done on gf day which hadn't been done through the year at all. going in with one ruckman - and therefore rotating kosi and blake in the ruck. farren ray getting a tight tagging job on a midfielder. sam gilbert going forward - every other tall defender had a go up forward when roo was out, but gilbo didn't until the grannie.

we just didn't see these things during the year. from one side, this was smart adaptation from the coaching box. from the other, it was the moves of a desperate man. i have sympathy with both positions. yes, it was good adaptation - but none of these moves were ridiculous, so i also think they should have been tried through the year.

[rodgerfox]

But you need the flexibility in both game plan and player mindset to be able to come out and play the type of game on a given day that is required to win a GF.

to be fair, i think to an extent that's what happened. certainly things were done on gf day which hadn't been done through the year at all. going in with one ruckman - and therefore rotating kosi and blake in the ruck. farren ray getting a tight tagging job on a midfielder. sam gilbert going forward - every other tall defender had a go up forward when roo was out, but gilbo didn't until the grannie.

we just didn't see these things during the year. from one side, this was smart adaptation from the coaching box. from the other, it was the moves of a man. i have sympathy with both positions. yes, it was good adaptation - but none of these moves were ridiculous, so i also think they should have been tried through the year.

I think that's a perfect example.

What happened in the first half of the first GF, was a case of us playing the same stodgy, lame and predictable game we'd played all year.
And it was getting slaughtered.

After half time, we saw flexibility in structures and individuals were allowed (or chose to) to play natural instinctive games. In one half of footy we nearly stole a flag.

The following week, we reverted to the same inflexible structure and impotent style of play that saw us looking down the barrell only a week earlier.

The difference was that in week 2, Collingwood took their early chances and we didn't - so by the time the moves were made the horse had pretty much bolted.

[markp]

That turkey wont fly....

But Happy Thanksgiving.

[joffaboy]

So come out on Grand Final day and play entirely different to the game style that got you there, no matter what style of play... Thats what your asking for.


Rightio.

No, not at all.

But you need the flexibility in your game plan, structures and player mindset to be able to come out and play the type of game on a given day that is required to win a GF.

Yes good point. Four goals down at half time of GF1 and lyon throws Gilbo forward, and Blake and Kosi in the ruck, and uses Ray to shut down Swan.

I think we showed that flexibility, however it was forced on us by circumstance. With Gardiner down and us four goals adrift the change had to be made by Lyon.

Some may say desperation, but hey it is a GF and maybe Stan should have tried some desperation in the final quarter of the 97 GF.

One of the bright spots of the change in GF1 was Gilbo up forward and this was replicated in GF2. This may well have some positive knockon effects with Gilbo up forward next season.

So in essence the players showed the do have the mindest and the flexibility to change a GF momentum, and with lyon flagging a more attacking approach hopefully the defensive mindset ingrained by lyon over four seasons will be ingrained and the players can switch between the two when the circumstances demand.

[rodgerfox]

One of the bright spots of the change in GF1 was Gilbo up forward and this was replicated in GF2. This may well have some positive knockon effects with Gilbo up forward next season.

It was good and it was bad.

Clearly the Gilbert move was nearly a flag winning one.

So what do we see at the opening bounce the following week? What I saw was a refusal to acknowledge that the usual structure and setup just wasn't going to cut it.
I saw stubborness, with a hint of arrogance thrown in there.

Some of the assistants saw it the same way, so I'm told.


It took an entire quarter and a 3 goal quarter time deficit to reproduce something that was proven to work only a week earlier.


Anyway, that's old news.


What's important is that we do learn from what happened, and change things up a bit.
You don't throw away all the good work that made the team so well drilled, but you teach them to subtely deviate from it and leverdige off it.

[Thinline]

One of the bright spots of the change in GF1 was Gilbo up forward and this was replicated in GF2. This may well have some positive knockon effects with Gilbo up forward next season.

It was good and it was bad.

Clearly the Gilbert move was nearly a flag winning one.

So what do we see at the opening bounce the following week? What I saw was a refusal to acknowledge that the usual structure and setup just wasn't going to cut it.
I saw stubborness, with a hint of arrogance thrown in there.

Some of the assistants saw it the same way, so I'm told.


It took an entire quarter and a 3 goal quarter time deficit to reproduce something that was proven to work only a week earlier.


Anyway, that's old news.


What's important is that we do learn from what happened, and change things up a bit.
You don't throw away all the good work that made the team so well drilled, but you teach them to subtely deviate from it and leverdige off it.

Rodger, with all due respect, f*** off with the Ross bashing.

You're incessant degrading of things RL is so ridiculously dull I'm frankly disappointed in myself for drawing attention to it.

Really, mate, why not just assume everyone knows your feelings on our coach and move on?

Besides, Gilbert is a DEFENDER. He spoils and out-positions and runs. So he pinched a goal as a fwd in GF 1 in what was his first foray fwd all year. Big whoop. It certainly doesn't all of a sudden make him Riewoldt mk 2 in GF2. It makes him an option if things are going to s***. So he goes fwd in GF2 when we were all but ruined and showed two things - potential AND a horribly inaccurate left foot.

What any of that has to do with Ross this and Ross that simply escapes me. All it does is give you a window of opportunity to fabricate a reason to dust off your bugbear.

[joffaboy]

One of the bright spots of the change in GF1 was Gilbo up forward and this was replicated in GF2. This may well have some positive knockon effects with Gilbo up forward next season.

It was good and it was bad.

Clearly the Gilbert move was nearly a flag winning one.

So what do we see at the opening bounce the following week? What I saw was a refusal to acknowledge that the usual structure and setup just wasn't going to cut it.
I saw stubborness, with a hint of arrogance thrown in there.

Some of the assistants saw it the same way, so I'm told.


It took an entire quarter and a 3 goal quarter time deficit to reproduce something that was proven to work only a week earlier.


Anyway, that's old news.


What's important is that we do learn from what happened, and change things up a bit.
You don't throw away all the good work that made the team so well drilled, but you teach them to subtely deviate from it and leverdige off it.

Rodger, with all due respect, f*** off with the Ross bashing.

You're incessant degrading of things RL is so ridiculously dull I'm frankly disappointed in myself for drawing attention to it.

Really, mate, why not just assume everyone knows your feelings on our coach and move on?

Well in this case I tend to agree with the thrust of what RF is saying.

Obviously I can't prove it, but would we have even come close in GF1 with the Gardiner injury?

IMHO the changes were forced on us. Blake killed Jolley around the ground and Kosi and the third men up held their own. This really was significant in the fourth qtr when our mids got on top. If Gardiner had not tweeked a hammy, would that move had been made? Who knows.

I don't mind that RF belived that Lyon was stubborn or even a bit arrogant. Malthouse id both of those and he guided his team to a flag.

What i do like is the fact that Lyon has realised with the Gilbo move that we require an attacking mid sized tall to compliment a plodding Kosi and the two smalls.

yes RF has been a critic of Lyon and I am sure many would think he is fishing with his "arrogant and stubborn" comment and his aside about assistant coaches believing that (BTW assistant coaches are that because they can't get the top gig, and with the ego's of these people involved, I am sure they could all do a better job than the head coach) but if you believe that, then you also have to acknowledge his last paragraph.

Lyon is a very good coach that has got us to within a whisker of a flag. He knows what is needed to get us there more than anyone, assistant coaches included, and flexibility is one of the keys that it seems he is trying to get into a pretty inflexible and really, only an above average list.

[SainterK]

I don't buy the argument myself, what's this business about miss timing the move....more like miss timed kicking!

From the dying minutes of the first quarter with Roo's miss, up until the opening minutes of the third with Schneiders miss.....there was a total of 8 Saints behinds kicked.

27:31 St Kilda - Riewoldt << Point >> 45 Degrees General, 30-40m

2nd Qtr Collingwood St Kilda
00:31 St Kilda - Gilbert << Point >> In Front General, 40-50m
3:19 St Kilda - Gilbert << Point >> In Front General, 30-40m
8:48 St Kilda - Montagna << Point >> 45 Degrees Snap, 30-40m
10:35 St Kilda - Gilbert << Point >> 45 Degrees General, 30-40m 20
13:05 St Kilda - Fisher << Point >> In Front General, More 50m 19 26
14:58 St Kilda - Goddard ** Goal ** In Front Free, 10-30m 13 26 6 13
29:50 St Kilda - Schneider << Point >> 45 Degrees Mark, 30-40m 27

3rd Qtr Collingwood St Kilda
00:12 St Kilda - Schneider << Point >> In Front General, 40-50m

Kicked even half of them, half, the boys would of been 3 points down.

Against the side accused of terrible kicking, we were terrible kicks.

[Thinline]

So, K, arguably if Roo didn't have a brain fade we would have been in front!

Just a bit of a stretch...

[SainterK]

So, K, arguably if Roo didn't have a brain fade we would have been in front!

Just a bit of a stretch...

Where did I say that TL?

I said for just over one quarter, approx 30 minutes of football, our kicking was more than ordinary and for all that effort only 8 behinds and 1 goal were registered.

[samoht]

Gilbert our make -shift forward, at least ran, took the game on and tried to find/ create space.

We need more players like that who are prepared to and have the ability take the game on - hopefully one or two of the speedy youngsters we just recruited could do that soon ? .. that's what would make us exciting .

Lyon can't just suddenly conjure up exciting footy - you need exciting players for that.

[Thinline]

So, K, arguably if Roo didn't have a brain fade we would have been in front!

Just a bit of a stretch...

Where did I say that TL?

I said for just over one quarter, approx 30 minutes of football, our kicking was more than ordinary and for all that effort only 8 behinds and 1 goal were registered.

No criticism. You're right on the numbers. And if we were three down on your figures and Roo kicks the one Shaw stopped, technically we are up.

I just don't think we were anywhere near in the game at any point. And that makes the number deceptive.

[rodgerfox]

Gilbert our make -shift forward, at least ran, took the game on and tried to find/ create space.

We need more players like that who are prepared to and have the ability take the game on ...

We have players capable of it - they just aren't allowed to do it.

[Thinline]

Gilbert our make -shift forward, at least ran, took the game on and tried to find/ create space.

We need more players like that who are prepared to and have the ability take the game on ...

We have players capable of it - they just aren't allowed to do it.

Who exactly stops which players from performing this function?

How about ditching the vague stuff and just say exactly what you think?

[SainterK]

Gilbert our make -shift forward, at least ran, took the game on and tried to find/ create space.

We need more players like that who are prepared to and have the ability take the game on ...

We have players capable of it - they just aren't allowed to do it.

We have players capable of it, certain ones I am thinking of said they were 100% fit, and I don't believe they were.

[Dr Spaceman]

Special acts of brilliance need to occur, for a team to win on GF day.

The question is, does the way we're coached allow this to happen? Or are we simply sitting ducks on GF day for another club to come out and do something freakish whilst we grind away and play 'low risk' footy?

Yep, I've noticed Roo, BJ, Lenny, Milne etc aren't allowed to do anything vaguely exciting.

No doubt when BJ launched himself towards the end of GF1 he was simply trying to make Harry Taylor & Luke Ball accountable. Probably got strips torn off him after the game because the ball accidently fell into his hands. But he'll learn

[Thinline]

Special acts of brilliance need to occur, for a team to win on GF day.

The question is, does the way we're coached allow this to happen? Or are we simply sitting ducks on GF day for another club to come out and do something freakish whilst we grind away and play 'low risk' footy?

Yep, I've noticed Roo, BJ, Lenny, Milne etc aren't allowed to do anything vaguely exciting.

No doubt when BJ launched himself towards the end of GF1 he was simply trying to make Harry Taylor & Luke Ball accountable. Probably got strips torn off him after the game because the ball accidently fell into his hands. But he'll learn

Way, way too rational.

Did you know Ross shot JFK, poisoned Marilyn and orchestrated 9/11?

Well can you prove otherwise?

[borderbarry]

I hate to say it but I dont think Gilbert is the answer as a forward. His kicking is too poor. But then again, if we play him in the forward/ half forward lines, a kick that would be a turn over from the back line might become a score, if only a minor one.

[rodgerfox]

Special acts of brilliance need to occur, for a team to win on GF day.

The question is, does the way we're coached allow this to happen? Or are we simply sitting ducks on GF day for another club to come out and do something freakish whilst we grind away and play 'low risk' footy?

Yep, I've noticed Roo, BJ, Lenny, Milne etc aren't allowed to do anything vaguely exciting.

No doubt when BJ launched himself towards the end of GF1 he was simply trying to make Harry Taylor & Luke Ball accountable. Probably got strips torn off him after the game because the ball accidently fell into his hands. But he'll learn

I'll try very hard not to come across as condescending or patronising here, but are you aware of what everyone is talking about when they use the term 'roles'?

[SainterK]

Special acts of brilliance need to occur, for a team to win on GF day.

The question is, does the way we're coached allow this to happen? Or are we simply sitting ducks on GF day for another club to come out and do something freakish whilst we grind away and play 'low risk' footy?

Yep, I've noticed Roo, BJ, Lenny, Milne etc aren't allowed to do anything vaguely exciting.

No doubt when BJ launched himself towards the end of GF1 he was simply trying to make Harry Taylor & Luke Ball accountable. Probably got strips torn off him after the game because the ball accidently fell into his hands. But he'll learn

This thread needs more

[Dr Spaceman]

Special acts of brilliance need to occur, for a team to win on GF day.

The question is, does the way we're coached allow this to happen? Or are we simply sitting ducks on GF day for another club to come out and do something freakish whilst we grind away and play 'low risk' footy?

Yep, I've noticed Roo, BJ, Lenny, Milne etc aren't allowed to do anything vaguely exciting.

No doubt when BJ launched himself towards the end of GF1 he was simply trying to make Harry Taylor & Luke Ball accountable. Probably got strips torn off him after the game because the ball accidently fell into his hands. But he'll learn

I'll try very hard not to come across as condescending or patronising here, but are you aware of what everyone is talking about when they use the term 'roles'?

You may have tried RF; you may tried very hard. But you failed dismally.

I'll just have to live with the knowledge I'm not as smart as you




I am comforted however by the fact I can post on more than one topic

[bigcarl]

I hate to say it but I dont think Gilbert is the answer as a forward. His kicking is too poor. But then again, if we play him in the forward/ half forward lines, a kick that would be a turn over from the back line might become a score, if only a minor one.

He can work on this and no doubt already is over summer.

IMO he'll offer more than Kosi in terms of mobility, creativity and ultimately goals.

I've got Kosi pencilled in as sub/second ruck.

[bozza1980]

So, K, arguably if Roo didn't have a brain fade we would have been in front!

Just a bit of a stretch...

Where did I say that TL?

I said for just over one quarter, approx 30 minutes of football, our kicking was more than ordinary and for all that effort only 8 behinds and 1 goal were registered.

No criticism. You're right on the numbers. And if we were three down on your figures and Roo kicks the one Shaw stopped, technically we are up.

I just don't think we were anywhere near in the game at any point. And that makes the number deceptive.

It's a circular argument, we were never in the game because we didn't take our chances in the 2nd Qtr, but had we taken our chances we would have been in the game, but we didn't take our chances so we were never in the game, but had we taken our chances etc, etc