Thinking about this for a while

[spert]

As soon as two experienced finals players in Goddard and Gram went I knew that would result in either being deficient in attack or defence which would result in not kicking as many goals, or leaking goals compared to 2012. In 2013, the input from Hayes and NDS is not there, so apart from Roo, Steven and Montagna, the rest are plodding along regardless of young, old, experienced or not, and I just feel like the guys need a good kick up the bum as the last halves of the game look like a bunch of unmotivated players watching the opposition make the play.

[saintspremiers]

No 1 is that workrate and commitment is not there, and in particular amongst most of the older players.

While yes were are "rebuilding", if we had a better workrate we would have won several more games.

Which is why I have a man crush on the captain. - gives 100% effort 100% of the time. even now that we are out of contention.

Must be hard to front up week after week knowing that in reality finals are out of the question. The elders in the team could be excused for dropping off a little with no motivation to put in 100% when 90% will probably do.

It shouldn't be hard.

They are paid good money.

They all should have pride in working hard and giving there all despite not being a good team anymore.

You carry work ethic everywhere you go. It's just what you do.

[Cairnsman]

All this because we lost to the Dogs and the Crows...interesting.
Having expectations of 9 wins for the season might be part of the problem and also basing expecations for this season on our 12 wins from last season which in hindsight might be considered an over achievement.
The reaction to this weeks loss to the Dogs seems similar to that of the loss to the Gold Coast and really in hindsight the Gold Coast were always ahead of us and maybe we should wait to see how the Dogs go over the next month to see if we haven't shown them enough respect also.
And if you are perplexed about our postion have a think about North, they are only one win ahead of us which is surprising considering their stage of development.

Collingwood spriralled to the bottom of the ladder and stayed there for a few years after successive defeats in the 02 and 03 Grand Finals. IMO we were always going to follow a similar pattern and hopefully we follow their pattern and maintain our nerve and don't start jumping at shadows and start blaiming individuals like the coach becuase every time you throw out the coach you go back to the start line unless you have a list like we did in 2007 when RL took over.

My advice, lower your expectation of wins to approximately 2 to 4 for this year and maybe next year and just enjoy watching the next generation grow. And also drink beer during games at the emergency rate.

Possibly your finest ever post. Agree prettry much 100%

The beer bit is gold isn't it!

[Cairnsman]

No 1 is that workrate and commitment is not there, and in particular amongst most of the older players.

While yes were are "rebuilding", if we had a better workrate we would have won several more games.

Which is why I have a man crush on the captain. - gives 100% effort 100% of the time. even now that we are out of contention.

Must be hard to front up week after week knowing that in reality finals are out of the question. The elders in the team could be excused for dropping off a little with no motivation to put in 100% when 90% will probably do.

It shouldn't be hard.

They are paid good money.

They all should have pride in working hard and giving there all despite not being a good team anymore.

You carry work ethic everywhere you go. It's just what you do.

Exactly SP! Whether you are one of the players or one of the young and inexperienced player you should always maintain a high work ethic/rate, in actual fact you have to work harder when you are younger if you are going to make it.

Isn't the starting AFL contract worth 80k.

That is an amazing starting pay packet for a teenager.

I listened to Buckly on SEN on Saturday and he made the comment that there were a few senior players in his team that had found out over the past 2 years how quickly the game changes and that what they were doing in 2010 doesn't necessarily work today. He went on to further say that it takes extreme hard work and relentlessness.

Relentlessness I think is what some of our senior players have given up since 2010 and we were the ones that lost the GF.

SW just has to churn through players until he gets not only the right skill but the right attitude.

[Megamaguire]

Transition is hurting at the moment for sure. Goddard walking was a big loss when you suddenly take away his ability to read the game well and respond quickly and effectively. Dal Santo appears less effective than he has been. Injuries have upset us this year and coupled with the revolving door of young guys straight into the team some significant subtlities of team cohesion have been compromised.
then again the coaches are forced to give the young guys a go. The future has to begin somewhere and the likes of Ross, Newness, Wright, Hickey , Webster need game time till they 'get it'.
Roberton has been a blessing and somewhat of a rock on many occasions so far this year. but....

RECRUITING IS NOW A MATTER OF SURVIVAL
St.Kilda must make Fantastic recruiting decisions from here on in.
Now is the time to be working full bore behind the scenes to get real classy players to our club.
It reminds me a bit of where Carlton were at when they felt the need to recruit Judd.
I think we need to bring in one very special individual.

GO SAINTS!

[spert]

I reckon just follow Yabby Jean's advice and win the contest- beat your opponent..that's not rocket science.

[White Winmar]

I reckon just follow Yabby Jean's advice and win the contest- beat your opponent..that's not rocket science.

Not even rocket science is rocket science.

[spert]

I reckon just follow Yabby Jean's advice and win the contest- beat your opponent..that's not rocket science.

Not even rocket science is rocket science.

Sorry I got it mixed up with brain science- I meant rocket surgery

[Stephen Theodore]

How many players from the 2010 grand final played on the weekend? Only 10. Out of those 10 think how many have declined significantly in form. Milne, Dal Santo, Hayes, Fisher, Ray, Jones etc - none are near their 2010 form. Roo and Joey seem the only two who are player very good footy. Then look at the other 12 in the side and who has improved the team? Roberton, Steven, Geary and Ben....Maybe I'm missing a few. In 2010 we had a poor bottom 6 (Eddy, Mini and those types) now he have a poor bottom 15. Not a quick drop when you take that into consideration.

So you thought 5 wins was about it at the start of the year? Last year we won 12. I certainly expected a drop. I think there is more in it than just age. Why the complete shift in game plan after one year? Why the drop off of Dal and Fisher when they arent even that old?

Older players are mentally fried. They still had some hope last season of finals, maybe a Prelim, but this season reality has hit hard, and not only the players.

[Verdun66]

I wonder if last year there was pressure from the board (and supporters) to play more exciting attacking high scoring footy. Tick.

But the defensive deficiency would've bugged SW given his coaching background.

But was SW under the wrong impression as to where the side was? Did he think the uber-attack would just roll on with a more defensive mindset?

Maybe a team like Geelong can do it but it takes a much better skill set than we have.

Simply, SW IMO has misread the team. He may be a good developer of players - not sure yet - but week to week coaching he's a bit like GT - trying to learn the ropes.

Also a bit difficult for SW when he doesn't completely know the capabilities of many of the new players, and also the possibly diminished powers of some of the older players.Guys under 50 games will be on and off, and fade in and out of the game. Will sadly take some time for them to get AFL bodies and tanks. And at the same time some of the older ones lose their capacity, and become susceptible to injury. Probably why the slide happens so fast.

We knew we were out of kilter development wise. Think our recruiting looks good over the past 2 years, but the real fruits are a couple of years away. We may have to recruit a couple of players like a Sylvia to help bridge the gap. 27 years old, but able to take a strong work-load. Maybe not Sylvia, but someone of that ilk. Just having kids doesn't work as we've seen with some other clubs.

[saint66au]

My theory is based on the fact that from 2000 it took us 4 years to play finals again..and that was with emerging stars Kosi, Roo, BJ Milne and Ball in the side. Even in 01/02 when we were cellar dwellers we won 2 Rising Star awards and Blind Freddy could tell those kids were gong to be guns. We got Fraser Gehrig not Beau Maister.

Flash forward to 2013. People want us back playing finals in two years. Well, WCE went from bottom to finals in one years..but we dont have a Darling, Shuey Gaff etc etc in our side yet. Adelaide did it in two years..but again we dont have a Dangerfield, Sloane, Talia, Tippet or Walker.

Moral of the story? you want to play finals before 2017? You better hope some of our kids start looking like Rory Sloane or Jack Darling..or at the latest we grab some in the next draft. Our kids have normal development period with no one jumping out of the pack? ..forget about finals for 4 years minimum.

[saint66au]

Just a P.S,.,Im here for the long haul no matter what scenerio unfolds..and I think SW is the man either way. I think off-field the Club have forseen the possible worse case scenario by shoring up the NZ deal. $1m/season in 2014/2015 will be very handy to offset the hit we will undoubtedly take in Membership/Merch/sponsorship that comes with a couple of years down the bottom. Very responsible IMO and far more preferable to seeling games randomly to FNQ/Darwin/wherever.

[Verdun66]

Just a P.S,.,Im here for the long haul no matter what scenerio unfolds..and I think SW is the man either way. I think off-field the Club have forseen the possible worse case scenario by shoring up the NZ deal. $1m/season in 2014/2015 will be very handy to offset the hit we will undoubtedly take in Membership/Merch/sponsorship that comes with a couple of years down the bottom. Very responsible IMO and far more preferable to seeling games randomly to FNQ/Darwin/wherever.

Agree with this. Seeing as I have been on the 'long haul' for nigh on 50 years now, I won't be jumping off. I will be happy if we plan for the future better than we have done in the past. More considered long-term thinking, rather than knee-jerk whenever there is a bump in the road.

I have noticed the last few years when a good player was possibly available to draft or trade we were never in a position to do anything about it. If there is ever a chance to take advantage of whoever might become available, (or that we might be able to prise loose) it is surely this year.

[joffaboy]

Just a P.S,.,Im here for the long haul no matter what scenerio unfolds..

Not if you keep scoffing down those Tim Tams you wont be

[joffaboy]

Interesting this talk about the long haul.

Didn't see anybody complain from 2003 onwards about the performances overall.

Saint are the only team to win 12 games or more in a row since 2004. Wont happen this year, or for the next few, but we all go on for the ride, fell agonisingly short twice, and now we have to suck it up.

We just need to have faith in Watters and pelcan, whom despite what some simpletons on here say, didn't misread the players or the list at all, he actually said last night he was rebuilding from R1 last season.

He knew EXACTLY what he was getting. So does the Admin. We need to give him at least another two seasons before making rash and distabilising decions about coaches.

We enjoyed the high times, time to support in the low times. We are Saints supporters, we all know about low times.

[gringo]

The difference between us from the 2000 -2004 and now is we really did cut nearly the whole team out with pretty much Peckett, Jones and Harves the only seniors to play the bulk of the overlap. Blight and Watson both had their cut backs- a lot like Melbourne right now. They will get a new coach and do another rebuild and it will still take time. Impatience does more damage than good to clubs.

[Jacks Back]

I don't think Stanley is a back man and definitely not a gorilla keeper. We looked better when he played in the forward line last year. Send him forward from now on Scotty, please. The three talls especially on etihad is the way to go. Get some players in who can rotate on the ball and play forward as well to kick some goals.

Can't hurt.

[bigcarl]

Why have the goals dried up?

Well we're getting smashed out of the centre ... which will do it ... but leaving that aside for a minute, our forward line is dysfunctional. As directionless as I've seen since before Gehrig was moved to full forward about midway through 2003.


Milne's decline has hit hard.

Now the only sure avenue to goal is the skipper, whose kicking is too dodgy to be relied on to kick us a regular winning score.

Maister drops simple marks and isn't the long-term forward we are looking for.

If it were me I'd plonk Siposs at full forward ... at least until Lee and/or White are ready. He's maybe a little short for a key position but is a strong mark for is size and has form for kicking goals at a lower level. Make him a focal point and give him a bit of space to lead into.

Yes, the midfield is a major concern, but even when they are on top we haven't been putting it on the scoreboard. An efficient forward line that gives reward for effort upfield makes it worthwhile for the mids to bust a gut getting it down there.

So I reckon something like this:

Riewoldt, Milera
Milne or Saad, Siposs, McEvoy/Hickey

[Megamaguire]

I don't think Stanley is a back man and definitely not a gorilla keeper. We looked better when he played in the forward line last year. Send him forward from now on Scotty, please. The three talls especially on etihad is the way to go. Get some players in who can rotate on the ball and play forward as well to kick some goals.

Can't hurt.

SW may be taking the longer development view with Stanley by asking him to take responsibility down back. Stanley may really need a spell down back for his development/ decision-making / understanding the game etc. with the goal of him being the greater force for it up fwd. 2015 and beyond. I've no way of knowing but if this was the case and SW was very clear in his convictions I could applaud his thinking.

Of coarse I could have it back 2 front and SW really does see a massive future for the team in having Stanley getting used to being down back and becoming the vital tall defender the team needs in the future.

Who knows in 2015 we may be loving what Stanley brings to the defensive structure and how he fits in so well with Roberton; Geary;Simpkin; Gwilt & Wright ??
However will the recruiters also target a gorilla keeper ???
Just out of interest because i haven't seen enough of J.Frawley - would he qualify ?

GOOD LUCK SAINTS!

[saintspremiers]

Just a P.S,.,Im here for the long haul no matter what scenerio unfolds..and I think SW is the man either way. I think off-field the Club have forseen the possible worse case scenario by shoring up the NZ deal. $1m/season in 2014/2015 will be very handy to offset the hit we will undoubtedly take in Membership/Merch/sponsorship that comes with a couple of years down the bottom. Very responsible IMO and far more preferable to seeling games randomly to FNQ/Darwin/wherever.

If nothing else, its a good excuse for a holiday in NZ.

Almost definitely going over there next year for a mini break. It's worth it for even just a 4 day trip.

[Johnny Member]

Well 2 weeks anyway. Last year in SW first year we became a free flowing runnung side who could score many goals but the problem was stopping them. This year we are playing like we did when RL coached us. Struggling to score but keeping sides to lower scores. is 2 completely different game plans in 2 years a bit confusing for the players? i certainly dont know but a side with 5 AA still playing shouldnt be losing to a side like the WB. There is a problem with our older guys and yes age is certainly one of them but why the drop off. Individually they probably arent going that bad as a group and team they and the side are really struggling. This is with Ben, Steven and Armo having their best years so far and those players are in the most important position. the midfield.

So the question is how can this side lose to the GC and the WB. The positive was beating Carlton but Adelaide was poor after half time and essendon whilst not a spanking was always a fair way off them during the game. I certainly dont know what is wrong with us but I think there is something whether its the coaching, age, maybe overrating of players etc. And i am writing this knowing that I did have us not winning more than 9 games this year. I just didnt expect 5 like it seems it maybe. 5 AA in the one side no matter what age shouldnt be going this bad. Maybe the 2 game plans have confused them all.

They're not AAs now though.


I believe it is list balance. And learning a new style - that always takes time. It took 2 years under Lyon, and that was with a legitimately good list.


Our older guys, the AAs mentioned above, aren't good enough to carry a side anymore. Roo is, the others aren't. It's possibly questionable as to whether or not they ever were really.

Sam Fisher and Gwilt, are now playing along side Roberton, Stanley and some other kids. They aren't good enough prop that group up.

The midfield is terrible really.



If you look at Geelong, they have managed to keep the balance of bringing in young guys without throwing them to the wolves. They blooded Selwood as the 4th on-baller until he became established, and they are continuing to slowly ease guys like Christenson in by playing small roles.

Give a young dude with talent a small role, and they'll often do it well and look like a gun.

Ask them to play a key role, and it's a very different story.


At the moment, we're asking young kids to play key roles. And lots of them are doing it at the same time. Putting Ross in the guts for example, alongside Montagna, Dal and Goddard for example would be ideal. He'd get the 4th best player, and basically be eased in to it.

But put him in with Armitage, Jones and Stevens and it's no wonder we're battling.



Unfortunately this balance won't happen for years I don't think.