Lower your expectations of what Freeman achieves this year

[CURLY]

Pretty simple really if he plays well in the pre season he plays AFL. Don't get the argument to suggest otherwise.

[Darth Vader]

Saw the figjam comments so asked my 2 eldest kids who went to school with him if true. Response was "Hell yeah." Not necessarily a bad thing.

And if anyone would know figjam its Darth Vaders kids. Makes sense really. For a kid who had only been on an AFL list for 2 years, struggled with a chronic injury from the get go, hadn't played even one serious game to showcase his stuff, - to request a trade from the biggest and best resourced footy club in Victoria and negotiate a near million dollar, multi-year deal showed some seriously big bollocks. I don't think he's going to lack for confidence if he can get out there on game day. And I agree that's not a bad thing. I've always thought we need a bit more cockiness at out club. Yes it can be a double edged sword as Steve Johnson and Akermanis showed there is a danger it can go toxic. But its amazing how those players in the biggest games, when even the best feel the heat and tighten up, seem impenetrable to any sense of doubt and get it done.

All the best have a touch of arrogance, including Rooey. Maybe a lack of arrogance is what held Kosi back. And Luke and Leia send their regards.

[Enrico_Misso]

Freeman could be our next Dean Greig.
(especially if they have to remove his damaged leg).

[Con Gorozidis]

Let's just see if he can play a single afl game first.
When can take this argument up when that happens. Until then we are all speculating wildly.
Just put a game on the board.

[Bluthy]

Let's just see if he can play a single afl game first.
When can take this argument up when that happens. Until then we are all speculating wildly.
Just put a game on the board.

Thats what we are debating - where his first games should be. From Richo's quote below I believe they will take a cautious approach and he will go through the VFL for a big chunk of the year.

“When someone doesn’t play for two years – or play senior footy for two years – and you bring them to your footy club, you make sure they have all the attributes that when they are fit and healthy they’re going to be a really good player for you, otherwise you wouldn’t do the deal,” Richardson told saints.com.au on Thursday.

“But you also go into it realistically, knowing that this is going to take a while and this is where ‘Free’s’ is at.

The idea of rushing him into the ones with - no games on the board, two years of a stubbornly resistant injury, another tweak just before Christmas and won't be into full training until Feb so won't have a huge fitness base under him - seems a huge risk to me when there is simply no need to take such a risk. . You can say they will just play Freeman on a forward flank or pocket in the AFL. But you are expected to put on extreme frontal pressure these days. And you can be guaranteed that his opponent will run him into the ground dragging him and up and down the ground relentlessly. We seem to be taking a low-risk approach with valuable young players like Billings who sat out a lot of this year and Acres who was carefully nursed through the VFL and I expect Free to be treated the same.

[ripplug66]

Let's just see if he can play a single afl game first.
When can take this argument up when that happens. Until then we are all speculating wildly.
Just put a game on the board.

Thats what we are debating - where his first games should be. From Richo's quote below I believe they will take a cautious approach and he will go through the VFL for a big chunk of the year.

“When someone doesn’t play for two years – or play senior footy for two years – and you bring them to your footy club, you make sure they have all the attributes that when they are fit and healthy they’re going to be a really good player for you, otherwise you wouldn’t do the deal,” Richardson told saints.com.au on Thursday.

“But you also go into it realistically, knowing that this is going to take a while and this is where ‘Free’s’ is at.

The idea of rushing him into the ones with - no games on the board, two years of a stubbornly resistant injury, another tweak just before Christmas and won't be into full training until Feb so won't have a huge fitness base under him - seems a huge risk to me when there is simply no need to take such a risk. . You can say they will just play Freeman on a forward flank or pocket in the AFL. But you are expected to put on extreme frontal pressure these days. And you can be guaranteed that his opponent will run him into the ground dragging him and up and down the ground relentlessly. We seem to be taking a low-risk approach with valuable young players like Billings who sat out a lot of this year and Acres who was carefully nursed through the VFL and I expect Free to be treated the same.

I don't think your first post was debating where his first game will be played. Who cares about one game. Some of us are debating you saying he will play most games in the VFL. And not one poster has said he should play the first game with no games on board except you in this post.

[BigMart]

Haha...

Takes a big man....


Even the coach agrees...

He's a long way off AFL footy. Be surprised if he played more than 4-6 games

[ripplug66]

Haha...

Takes a big man....


Even the coach agrees...

He's a long way off AFL footy. Be surprised if he played more than 4-6 games

BM why do you continue to have shots at people but never quote. To be honest its very weak considering you come across as person who has strong ideas. I'm unsure what the coach agrees one. Can you explain. Remember this debate is over him playing most games in the VFL and I never read Richo saying that.

What I will say is some people will now hope he doesn't play many in the ones to prove they were right. They would rather be right and effect our club than be wrong and help or club. Each to their own. I don't reckon Ross will make a great footballer but I really hope I'm wrong and there are posts telling me how wrong I was.

[Bluthy]

What I will say is some people will now hope he doesn't play many in the ones to prove they were right. They would rather be right and effect our club than be wrong and help or club. Each to their own. I don't reckon Ross will make a great footballer but I really hope I'm wrong and there are posts telling me how wrong I was.

How would anyone being right about this effect the club? Do you think the words we write here effect club policy? That is crazy thinking and actually worries me about your connection with reality if you believe this.

Its another one of your inanities you love to trot out like a petulant child. With an upturned bottom lip and arms crossed, you pout and and indicate that you have the pure heart while the nasty others really are hoping for the worst from the club. I think you ran around saying the same sort of stuff about Carlisle. It really is extremely childish. Its like when I say things to you like "I can't understand what you wrote" you immediately write back that you can't understand me. It's literally what children do "You're dumb" "No YOU are".

Try and bring some maturity to your debating. We're just chucking around some (ill-informed) ideas and thoughts. I think we can be pretty sure the club is not carefully scanning through these bizzare, waffling threads to help decide what action the club should take. Relax a little and stop seeing it as such a competition with your ego all tied up in your arguments.

I think Freeman will be treated much like Acres who was drafted with injury concerns. Fair bit in the VFL, an occasional taste of AFL to see what he needs to work on (perhaps in the second half of the year), and even sitting out weeks entirely sometimes if things flair up a bit. He's valuable property and I think the softly, softly approach is best. Not "hoping" for anything really just trying to do a bit of prophecy for fun.

[BigMart]

Plugger
You just shot off at the mouth... And are slowly retracting and diverting from you first post, that's all...

I 'hope' he wins the Brownlow, best and fairest and plays 22 games and we win the premiership

I know none of that will come to fruition

He will probably debut mid season and play about as many games as McCartin and Goddard did this year
He's effectively a first year player with poor durability at this point.

He possibly could play 20 games or maybe 0 games??? But we are talking a likely scenario here, and the absolutely correct opinion suggested by Bluthy here is that he MUST be managed and we need to understand that and lower our expectation.

You just were oppositional as per usual...

[ripplug66]

What I will say is some people will now hope he doesn't play many in the ones to prove they were right. They would rather be right and effect our club than be wrong and help or club. Each to their own. I don't reckon Ross will make a great footballer but I really hope I'm wrong and there are posts telling me how wrong I was.

How would anyone being right about this effect the club? Do you think the words we write here effect club policy? That is crazy thinking and actually worries me about your connection with reality if you believe this.

Its another one of your inanities you love to trot out like a petulant child. With an upturned bottom lip and arms crossed, you pout and and indicate that you have the pure heart while the nasty others really are hoping for the worst from the club. I think you ran around saying the same sort of stuff about Carlisle. It really is extremely childish. Its like when I say things to you like "I can't understand what you wrote" you immediately write back that you can't understand me. It's literally what children do "You're dumb" "No YOU are".

Try and bring some maturity to your debating. We're just chucking around some (ill-informed) ideas and thoughts. I think we can be pretty sure the club is not carefully scanning through these bizzare, waffling threads to help decide what action the club should take. Relax a little and stop seeing it as such a competition with your ego all tied up in your arguments.

I think Freeman will be treated much like Acres who was drafted with injury concerns. Fair bit in the VFL, an occasional taste of AFL to see what he needs to work on (perhaps in the second half of the year), and even sitting out weeks entirely sometimes if things flair up a bit. He's valuable property and I think the softly, softly approach is best. Not "hoping" for anything really just trying to do a bit of prophecy for fun.

You didn't quite get what I meant. They would rather be right which would mean the club are effected because he isn't a ones player. The rest of your post bar the last paragraph is completely off tap. It was a simple comment by me based on how others act when they are proven right. Nothing to do with being childish but I reckon your post is. And I have debated this non stop so don't carry on as if I haven't. I reckon your post shows you may be one happy to trot out an old post just to say I told you so.

I reckon Freeman will be picked if he is fit and playing well. I reckon he will play mainly in the seconds if he isn't fit or not playing well. To say he will play mainly in the seconds without seeing him play is way over the top but then again we have seen it all before.

So again I suggest you read posts carefully before commenting on something that wasn't actually said.

[WinnersOnly]

I hope he plays this year - it will be a recruiting disaster if he doesnt and Carlisle gets rubbed out for a lengthy period. For me both were far too risky and I personally wouldnt have gone anywhere near either of them. High risk high reward lets hope the club was right?

[BigMart]

So now it's not

He's highly paid so he is not here to play VFL a definitive statement

To

If he's fit and playing well I 'hope' he plays ones

Well the second sentence applies to everyone ... Surely

Again, as Bluthy suggested (and AR) he's coming from a long way back.

[BigMart]

I agree with the risk of Freeman

Risk vs Reward


Not so much with Carlisle we paid market value, I would have only recruited him at a bargain price.
His attitude is poor, hard to change that fact.

[ripplug66]

So now it's not

He's highly paid so he is not here to play VFL a definitive statement

To

If he's fit and playing well I 'hope' he plays ones

Well the second sentence applies to everyone ... Surely

Again, as Bluthy suggested (and AR) he's coming from a long way back.

I gather you are commenting on my posts. Very hard to tell because you just wont do the basic thing of quoting. Yes it a definitive statement but as I reckon I have explained 5 times it doesn't mean he plays in the seniors because he is paid well, it means he is paid well because the club believe he is a genuine ones player.

No idea why you mentioned hope. I don't think I said it but does make your post sound better. And yes it does apply to everyone that they will play in the seniors if they play well enough. The problem is Bluthy isn't saying that. He never mentions form in his first post. He just says he will play most of the year in the seconds which is actually different to what you I and just about everyone else is saying and that is if he is fit and playing well he will be a senior player. So there you go.

And to a previous post. I read my first post on this topic and nothing has changed at all. I am prepared to change my mind if someone comes up with a sensible reason why I should but still haven't read one. And I'm not just going the opposite way to others just because. I believe what I said and many on here have said the same. Does that mean they are just trying to start an argument? I don't think so. It means they don't agree with some others. That's what this forum is for or should we all just agree even if we actually don't think that.
Plenty agree with Bluthy on this and plenty don't.

[Bluthy]

I reckon Freeman will be picked if he is fit and playing well. I reckon he will play mainly in the seconds if he isn't fit or not playing well.

So you've given yourself a nice little out there. If Freeman plays mainly VFL this year you can easily turn around and say he clearly wasn't AFL fit. That's very different to where you started basically saying if he's fit enough for selection and shows something decent in preseason he will go into the ones pretty quickly. The fun of this is to put something on the line. But you are now covering your bases.

I'm taking the plunge now and weaving together some different threads to present my beautifully woven tapestry of prediction. He's missed all the hardcore preseason running (Richo said they are now getting into ball drills), coupled with heavily modified training at Pies for two years, I think he will struggle to reach AFL level fitness for a while. AFL just keeps going up in terms of how much fitness base you need. Plus in the VFL the pace is slower and they have so much more control over how he can be handled in this crucial period of returning to play serious footy. They need to get this right - no ifs or buts. Hamstrings are tricky things.

It all adds up to me to put him in the VFL for an extended period before ramping up to AFL. You seem to say he should be treated as any other player but that is a pointless statement. All players are treated uniquely depending on their bodies and history.

[Bluthy]

I hope he plays this year - it will be a recruiting disaster if he doesnt and Carlisle gets rubbed out for a lengthy period. For me both were far too risky and I personally wouldnt have gone anywhere near either of them. High risk high reward lets hope the club was right?

Thats ridiculous. Its about keeping the eye on the prize (a premiership) not all about next year. Even if he played all year in the VFL that is a quantum leap from what Collingwood got out of him. Thats also a year of understanding "Saints" footy, bonding with his team-mates, playing along side a lot of them in the VFL - he'll probably be shoving the footy down Paddy's throat a bit. Then a full preseason doing all the running and the club would be over the moon that he is ready to launch into the AFL. I thought we paid a bit overs for him but you seem to be deliberately trying to set this up as disaster if he's not in the ones which would not be the case.

[ripplug66]

I reckon Freeman will be picked if he is fit and playing well. I reckon he will play mainly in the seconds if he isn't fit or not playing well.

So you've given yourself a nice little out there. If Freeman plays mainly VFL this year you can easily turn around and say he clearly wasn't AFL fit. That's very different to where you started basically saying if he's fit enough for selection and shows something decent in preseason he will go into the ones pretty quickly. The fun of this is to put something on the line. But you are now covering your bases.

I'm taking the plunge now and weaving together some different threads to present my beautifully woven tapestry of prediction. He's missed all the hardcore preseason running (Richo said they are now getting into ball drills), coupled with heavily modified training at Pies for two years, I think he will struggle to reach AFL level fitness for a while. AFL just keeps going up in terms of how much fitness base you need. Plus in the VFL the pace is slower and they have so much more control over how he can be handled in this crucial period of returning to play serious footy. They need to get this right - no ifs or buts. Hamstrings are tricky things.

It all adds up to me to put him in the VFL for an extended period before ramping up to AFL. You seem to say he should be treated as any other player but that is a pointless statement. All players are treated uniquely depending on their bodies and history.

Its not about an out. I don't care if I'm wrong. I will leave that for others who really seem to care. Actually I do care if I'm wrong because it will mean Freeman isn't good enough or injured. How am I covering my bases. I just said in another post I haven't changed my mind since my first post. I reckon that isn't playing safe but imagine all you want. And you just don't get it about treating him like any other player. I have said if he is fit and in form he should be treated like any other player. There is no doubt your first post says he will play mainly in the seconds. It seems you are taking no notice of his form so yes you aren't treating like any other player. It seems he has to do more than any other player to play senior footy. Now that just isn't fair. There is no doubt in my mind you really want to be right on this.

[WinnersOnly]

I hope he plays this year - it will be a recruiting disaster if he doesnt and Carlisle gets rubbed out for a lengthy period. For me both were far too risky and I personally wouldnt have gone anywhere near either of them. High risk high reward lets hope the club was right?

Thats ridiculous. Its about keeping the eye on the prize (a premiership) not all about next year. Even if he played all year in the VFL that is a quantum leap from what Collingwood got out of him. Thats also a year of understanding "Saints" footy, bonding with his team-mates, playing along side a lot of them in the VFL - he'll probably be shoving the footy down Paddy's throat a bit. Then a full preseason doing all the running and the club would be over the moon that he is ready to launch into the AFL. I thought we paid a bit overs for him but you seem to be deliberately trying to set this up as disaster if he's not in the ones which would not be the case.

Not at all he hope he plays no matter what level will be a bonus - I just have this terrible feeling about him? I cant remember ever a broken down player changing clubs and making a raging sucess out of themselves...?

[Bluthy]

Not at all he hope he plays no matter what level will be a bonus - I just have this terrible feeling about him? I cant remember ever a broken down player changing clubs and making a raging sucess out of themselves...?

Oh OK I thought you meant if he didn't play AFL this year it would be disaster. Hammies are tricky things for shizzle. I remember reading something where they describe it as each hammy strand is like an elastic band and if it snaps they have to tie it back together and it loses elasticity. I guess the flip side is that sports science and injury repair knowledge just keeps increasing year by year to the point where things they couldn't get right just 2 years ago they can sort out now. Rioli looked like a hopeless case for a while and was back to his explosive best in the grannie.

But Freeman really needs play this year for his own state of mind and to start learning his craft on field. My worry is that Richo is really ambitious (which is good as the best coaches are) and wants to install a winning culture and the temptation will be to rush Freeman in to the firsts if he seems to be tracking ok. Guess we'll see.

[kosifantutti]

Not at all he hope he plays no matter what level will be a bonus - I just have this terrible feeling about him? I cant remember ever a broken down player changing clubs and making a raging sucess out of themselves...?

Luke Ball?
Joel Smith?
Dean Rice?

[Bluthy]

Its not about an out. I don't care if I'm wrong. I will leave that for others who really seem to care. Actually I do care if I'm wrong because it will mean Freeman isn't good enough or injured. How am I covering my bases. I just said in another post I haven't changed my mind since my first post. I reckon that isn't playing safe but imagine all you want. And you just don't get it about treating him like any other player. I have said if he is fit and in form he should be treated like any other player. There is no doubt your first post says he will play mainly in the seconds. It seems you are taking no notice of his form so yes you aren't treating like any other player. It seems he has to do more than any other player to play senior footy. Now that just isn't fair. There is no doubt in my mind you really want to be right on this.

No initially for me any preseason form he shows is irrelevant. It's about taking a cautious approach with his body. Oh poor Nathan wouldn't being treated "fair" not being available for AFL selection What a bizzare thing to say. Is Acres being treated "fair" playing VFL?. Is Billings being treated "fair" being rested for a big chunk of this year? What a weird thing to say. It's all about what is best for the club and the player. Is it fair that Nathan gets paid $300,000 grand a year and Dunstan who has been killing himself in the middle for Saints would get paid a fraction of that? That's life and the market and the selection/injury management process ie thats big league footy! Grow up and stop talking about "fair". Its a meaningless phrase.

There you go with the childish "you really want to be right" thing again. What does that even mean? It's a totally pointless phrase that you think gives you some sort of high ground but it just shows how desperate to win an argument you are. I'm just taking a a stab at how they should handle him. And you clearly have changed your view on Freeman now regularly talking about needing to display good form AND fitness to get a go in the ones where you weren't previously. That IS very different than how you started out. So this thread has been worth it to get you (and others) to take a bit of chill pill on Mr Freeman and be a bit more realistic about him. Mission accomplished.

[ripplug66]

Its not about an out. I don't care if I'm wrong. I will leave that for others who really seem to care. Actually I do care if I'm wrong because it will mean Freeman isn't good enough or injured. How am I covering my bases. I just said in another post I haven't changed my mind since my first post. I reckon that isn't playing safe but imagine all you want. And you just don't get it about treating him like any other player. I have said if he is fit and in form he should be treated like any other player. There is no doubt your first post says he will play mainly in the seconds. It seems you are taking no notice of his form so yes you aren't treating like any other player. It seems he has to do more than any other player to play senior footy. Now that just isn't fair. There is no doubt in my mind you really want to be right on this.

No initially for me any preseason form he shows is irrelevant. It's about taking a cautious approach with his body. Oh poor Nathan wouldn't being treated "fair" not being available for AFL selection What a bizzare thing to say. Is Acres being treated "fair" playing VFL?. Is Billings being treated "fair" being rested for a big chunk of this year? What a weird thing to say. It's all about what is best for the club and the player. Is it fair that Nathan gets paid $300,000 grand a year and Dunstan who has been killing himself in the middle for Saints would get paid a fraction of that? That's life and the market and the selection/injury management process ie thats big league footy! Grow up and stop talking about "fair". Its a meaningless phrase.

There you go with the childish "you really want to be right" thing again. What does that even mean? It's a totally pointless phrase that you think gives you some sort of high ground but it just shows how desperate to win an argument you are. I'm just taking a a stab at how they should handle him. And you clearly have changed your view on Freeman now regularly talking about needing to display good form AND fitness to get a go in the ones where you weren't previously. That IS very different than how you started out. So this thread has been worth it to get you (and others) to take a bit of chill pill on Mr Freeman and be a bit more realistic about him. Mission accomplished.

Wow. You say form is irrelevant and say its about a cautious approach then you use 2 players to prove nothing at all. Acres was in the seconds because of form. You don't want to use form when picking Freeman. That is truly hilarious. Imagine if he was BOG 3 weeks in a row in the VFL and the club came out and said he will play in the seconds because we want to be cautious. What sort of joke would that be? It is totally unfair to a player. It isn't bizarre at all. Saying form doesn't come into where Freeman plays is truly bizarre. And now its the word childish again. Without being rude I would suggest using that is most posts is truly childish. And I clearly haven't changed my view on Freeman. My first post points out form. And then you say the thread is worth it because I have changed my mind. Firstly I haven't changed it one bit and secondly how are the tickets on yourself. Are you a tram conductor? Lets face it you do go overboard on somethings. You said Carlisle was in rehab and was an addict. One we know not to be true and I don't you have knowledge if he is an addict or not. Then you have a go at the club for what happened to Goddard without any knowledge at all and now you clearly state Freeman should play most of the year in the seconds no matter what his form. As I keep saying I am guessing you really want to be right. You come across as an I told you so person.

[Bluthy]

Wow. You say form is irrelevant and say its about a cautious approach then you use 2 players to prove nothing at all. Acres was in the seconds because of form. You don't want to use form when picking Freeman. That is truly hilarious. Imagine if he was BOG 3 weeks in a row in the VFL and the club came out and said he will play in the seconds because we want to be cautious. What sort of joke would that be? It is totally unfair to a player. It isn't bizarre at all. Saying form doesn't come into where Freeman plays is truly bizarre. And now its the word childish again. Without being rude I would suggest using that is most posts is truly childish. And I clearly haven't changed my view on Freeman. My first post points out form. And then you say the thread is worth it because I have changed my mind. Firstly I haven't changed it one bit and secondly how are the tickets on yourself. Are you a tram conductor? Lets face it you do go overboard on somethings. You said Carlisle was in rehab and was an addict. One we know not to be true and I don't you have knowledge if he is an addict or not. Then you have a go at the club for what happened to Goddard without any knowledge at all and now you clearly state Freeman should play most of the year in the seconds no matter what his form. As I keep saying I am guessing you really want to be right. You come across as an I told you so person.

Yes! I win. Rule of the internet - if you drag in old arguments then that means you can no longer argue and are desperately thrash around trying to get some leverage. You lose! You're a loser!

[ripplug66]

Yes! I win. Rule of the internet - if you drag in old arguments then that means you can no longer argue and are desperately thrash around trying to get some leverage. You lose! You're a loser!

Yes you win. As I said you want to be right no matter if you being right effects our club. I brought out old arguments just to prove it isn't a one off about you going over the top. Of course Freeman will play mainly in the seconds no matter how his form is. It isn't like form matters in AFL clubs. Bluthy you are a winner.