Trout gone end of Year

[SaintPav]

Club needs to be ruthless. Cull a minimum of 20% of the list and coaching staff.

Mods need to do the same.

Cull all the dead s*** simpletons on here like WellardSaint, Con Gorozidis, Parkeysainter etc etc.

Lol. Even Bernie would have come up with something better and he's dead!
Says alot about the Pavalator.

Parkey, you've been thanked 17 times,
but the deadbeat Pav got only 7-
I wonder who should be culled?
Not you...
Anyways, his 7 are
-the butcher, the mechanic, etc etc, who thanked him for staying at the footy so they could
each go a second time on his missus

Yep. The stats don't lie.

That’s what you think.

17 to 7. Pretty clear cut to me and that is without even trying. Told you before...you try tango with The Parkey and you will come off second best! Just ask Con G.

My enemies enemy is my friend, ha!

Ooh, so scary.

Everyone is petrified of Parkeysainter.

Beyoncé has mass appeal than Rachmaninov. So what!

You post more than 50% amongst other sampling errors, not to mention the cognitive biases which I can’t be arsed explaining.

You pick and choose when you want to bag the club but no one else can.

Christ, you’re fkn deluded.

17-7.

Sure, birdbrain.

I’m petrified.

[parkeysainter]

Oh great...Con is back. We get too see more stupid pics and gifs in every post bagging out the club, players, staff and supporters who post on here.

Time to put the microwave popcorn on.

[Con Gorozidis]

Oh great...Con is back. We get too see more stupid pics and gifs in every post bagging out the club, players, staff and supporters who post on here.

Time to put the microwave popcorn on.

[saynta]

Ooch.

[Saintmatt]

Just my feeling that Roo will be looking for higher paid and more influential jobs than assistant coach.

There's not a snowflake's chance in hell that Roo will be an Assistant Coach. His stated aim - and a promise to his wife - is that he'll spend the AFL off season in Texas with her family and enjoying being anonymous and the Melbourne Winter back in Melbourne (presumably in a commentary role with the highest bidder). No possible way you can be an assistant coach when you're away for the entire pre-season.

End of Story

[Saintmatt]

The Assistant coach thing is fascinating.

Kingsley has been there a while, and moved into a new role this season. 'Transition Coach' or something, that oversees the transition from defence, to mid to attack. He appears to be almost the main man in the box on game days this year.

Playfair is also new. I heard an interview with a player in the pre-season and he said that he'd brought a 'team defence' with him, instead of the 'pressure at the man' defensive strategy we had previously.


And these two are the ones that they're keeping.


It's really interesting, obviously not being on the inner sanctum, to understand how we can go from competitive to pathetic over one pre-season - and the two coaches that are responsible for the biggest factors in that are the only ones that are safe!

Obviously, something in the inner sanctum is going on that we don't understand. And I don't mean that to be a smart arse either. I mean clearly, the club sees something in what these two are bringing to the table that the outside world doesn't see.

Could it be that these tactical changes that these guys have introduced are simply taking time to get right? Could it be like when Lyon took over and we looked like rabble for 18 months whilst we learnt his style - then it clicked and we were a force?


It's very curious.

Always wondered about the last bit. Lyon changed the game plan halfway in 2008 and refined it in 2009.

Freo clicked immediately under Lyon.

Ross took the entire 2007 season and the early part of 2008 to have his gameplan indoctrinated into our then team (which was largely the polar opposite of the GT gameplan).

Freo clicked immediately because they had a terrific list absolutely primed for it. Their top end talent wasn't as good as the Saints in 2009/10 but, their middle and bottom tier were way stronger.

[Saintmatt]

Here's how I see this one working out: we sack Trout; he's unemployed for ten minutes before getting hired by a better run club; he continues to draft young talent; we continue to struggle. I don't believe that our struggles relate to an absence of young talent being brought to the club. I think we lack experienced leaders, particularly in the 26-30 age bracket. I think our development of our young players has been questionable. I think the current deployment of our young talent has been questionable. I do not, however, think it is reasonable to axe the recruiter while half your team is young players brought in by that person.

Possibly. I agree on the experienced leaders void. I'd add to that experienced and talented leaders. Sadly - our leaders are plodding role-players.

Questionable development of talent. Nope - sorry - strongly disagree. I'd classify it as deplorable. Noting redeeming about it at all. It's what sets us apart from the better clubs. Better resources and people.

Fix St Kilda's kicking accuracy (field and goal) alone - you largely fix St Kilda.

[rodgerfox]

Here's how I see this one working out: we sack Trout; he's unemployed for ten minutes before getting hired by a better run club; he continues to draft young talent; we continue to struggle. I don't believe that our struggles relate to an absence of young talent being brought to the club. I think we lack experienced leaders, particularly in the 26-30 age bracket. I think our development of our young players has been questionable. I think the current deployment of our young talent has been questionable. I do not, however, think it is reasonable to axe the recruiter while half your team is young players brought in by that person.

Possibly. I agree on the experienced leaders void. I'd add to that experienced and talented leaders. Sadly - our leaders are plodding role-players.

Questionable development of talent. Nope - sorry - strongly disagree. I'd classify it as deplorable. Noting redeeming about it at all. It's what sets us apart from the better clubs. Better resources and people.

Fix St Kilda's kicking accuracy (field and goal) alone - you largely fix St Kilda.

It's remarkable how younger guys appear to develop, when they have good senior players around them though.

[WellardSaint]

Roo was frustrated with the passes over his head and at his ankles 3/4 times a game, that is why he should have kicked at least 100 more goals in his career and maybe got a flag. I wont support AFL players who cant kick 30-40 metres with reasonable accuracy, one of the current mobs biggest issues and directly related to recruiting bar Goddard and Montagna and a couple of others over the years.

i look back at games from the 90's, and grounds looked worse than Etihad,
but our skiils are worse now than back then.
The grass was wet, muddy etc, but guys could kick better than some of ours now.
Roo and other forwards are getting poor delivery.
And these are professionals.

[Munga]

Is Trout not doing a good job? I thought the last three years drafting have been solid so far.

[freely]

The Assistant coach thing is fascinating.

Kingsley has been there a while, and moved into a new role this season. 'Transition Coach' or something, that oversees the transition from defence, to mid to attack. He appears to be almost the main man in the box on game days this year.

Playfair is also new. I heard an interview with a player in the pre-season and he said that he'd brought a 'team defence' with him, instead of the 'pressure at the man' defensive strategy we had previously.


And these two are the ones that they're keeping.


It's really interesting, obviously not being on the inner sanctum, to understand how we can go from competitive to pathetic over one pre-season - and the two coaches that are responsible for the biggest factors in that are the only ones that are safe!

Obviously, something in the inner sanctum is going on that we don't understand. And I don't mean that to be a smart arse either. I mean clearly, the club sees something in what these two are bringing to the table that the outside world doesn't see.

Could it be that these tactical changes that these guys have introduced are simply taking time to get right? Could it be like when Lyon took over and we looked like rabble for 18 months whilst we learnt his style - then it clicked and we were a force?


It's very curious.

Always wondered about the last bit. Lyon changed the game plan halfway in 2008 and refined it in 2009.

Freo clicked immediately under Lyon.

Ross took the entire 2007 season and the early part of 2008 to have his gameplan indoctrinated into our then team (which was largely the polar opposite of the GT gameplan).

Freo clicked immediately because they had a terrific list absolutely primed for it. Their top end talent wasn't as good as the Saints in 2009/10 but, their middle and bottom tier were way stronger.

Also, our gamestyle had become the blueprint by then - when Lyon rocked up they were getting it from the horse's mouth.

[chico2001]

Agree with this:
From a year ago relating to Roo

"Roo and other forwards are getting poor delivery.
And these are professionals."

No way are our guys professional in the basic skills, this should have been recognised at the recruiting stage. These guys have been in the system for 3/4 yrs and longer re. Armitage, Dunstan and Gilbert and they have never learned to kick to a lead, soft or hard ...no distance and no penetration. Yet some of the plonkers on here still insist that these guys are very good players and will continue to be so. If you are a recruiter at least pick somebody who you don't have to spend 10 years teaching them how to kick.

[parkeysainter]

Since the 2013 Billings, Dunstan and Acres draft, I think most of our picks have been decent to very good selections.
Legit question. Has Trout got it right overall then?

https://www.footywire.com/afl/footy/td- ... ?year=2013

If you go through those years from 2013 and look at each draft, only maybe 2014 was a cross at this point, but I still reckon those top 3 picks can be good players.

Maybe some have been a little harsh on Trout and co. Each to their own though I guess.

[chico2001]

Explain why they are going to be good players? Thats all anyone says here, they are going to be good players ad nauseum...... What are they good at? where are they going to improve? what should be the end point of their rise to be a good footballer in the AFL? Why arent they doing it now? How do they compare to similar picks from other clubs with the same amount of AFL game time?

Get some proper analysis into your posts so that others can debate it properly.

[Scollop]

Not sure Lyon was a mastermind or creative enough to come up with anything new in footy. I think the origins were initiated with Terry Wallace when he coached the Bulldogs with the flood against the Bombers in the late 90's and in 2000.

Not sure there have been any other coaches in modern AFL history apart from Roos who have won a flag with a defensive dour game plan

Lyon got most of his IP and ideas working under Paul Roos at the Swans. He believed in that defensive style so much he even recruited Brett Kirke as an assistant coach. If you want the blueprint for coming second, it's the best gameplan by a mile

[stonecold]

Not sure Lyon was a mastermind or creative enough to come up with anything new in footy. I think the origins were initiated with Terry Wallace when he coached the Bulldogs with the flood against the Bombers in the late 90's and in 2000.

Not sure there have been any other coaches in modern AFL history apart from Roos who have won a flag with a defensive dour game plan

Lyon got most of his IP and ideas working under Paul Roos at the Swans. He believed in that defensive style so much he even recruited Brett Kirke as an assistant coach. If you want the blueprint for coming second, it's the best gameplan by a mile

Don't agree with you often, however, I stated this years ago, as far back as when Ross was coaching us to Grand Finals, so I can not disagree now, as much as I would like to!!!!!

[WellardSaint]

Not sure Lyon was a mastermind or creative enough to come up with anything new in footy. I think the origins were initiated with Terry Wallace when he coached the Bulldogs with the flood against the Bombers in the late 90's and in 2000.

Not sure there have been any other coaches in modern AFL history apart from Roos who have won a flag with a defensive dour game plan

Lyon got most of his IP and ideas working under Paul Roos at the Swans. He believed in that defensive style so much he even recruited Brett Kirke as an assistant coach. If you want the blueprint for coming second, it's the best gameplan by a mile

Correct-
I would point to the 2 GF's played by WCE and Shitney, they were very low scoring,
to the extent that the total winning margin for both games, combined, was less than a goal.
Very defensive, lock-down, not many goals scored,
horrible to watch, and that's what Lyon brought to the Saints.
He is just a Roos clone, is all.

[Scollop]

Not sure Lyon was a mastermind or creative enough to come up with anything new in footy. I think the origins were initiated with Terry Wallace when he coached the Bulldogs with the flood against the Bombers in the late 90's and in 2000.

Not sure there have been any other coaches in modern AFL history apart from Roos who have won a flag with a defensive dour game plan

Lyon got most of his IP and ideas working under Paul Roos at the Swans. He believed in that defensive style so much he even recruited Brett Kirke as an assistant coach. If you want the blueprint for coming second, it's the best gameplan by a mile

Don't agree with you often, however, I stated this years ago, as far back as when Ross was coaching us to Grand Finals, so I can not disagree now, as much as I would like to!!!!!

Were you posting here on Saintsational back then? I wasn't posting or reading until finals time in 2011.

I only joined here shortly after we were beaten by Sydney in the 2011 elimination final. I was pissedoff with that effort and all of Lyon's excuses and lack of accounability from our head coach and the lack of heat from the media when he continually shifted blame for our losses back on the players. I started reading all the crap from Lyon devotees throughout that period and all the one sided debate regarding keeping him on as the Saints coach and decided to register and join the madhouse here

[stonecold]

Not sure Lyon was a mastermind or creative enough to come up with anything new in footy. I think the origins were initiated with Terry Wallace when he coached the Bulldogs with the flood against the Bombers in the late 90's and in 2000.

Not sure there have been any other coaches in modern AFL history apart from Roos who have won a flag with a defensive dour game plan

Lyon got most of his IP and ideas working under Paul Roos at the Swans. He believed in that defensive style so much he even recruited Brett Kirke as an assistant coach. If you want the blueprint for coming second, it's the best gameplan by a mile

Don't agree with you often, however, I stated this years ago, as far back as when Ross was coaching us to Grand Finals, so I can not disagree now, as much as I would like to!!!!!

Were you posting here on Saintsational back then? I wasn't posting or reading until finals time in 2011.

I only joined here shortly after we were beaten by Sydney in the 2011 elimination final. I was pissedoff with that effort and all of Lyon's excuses and lack of accounability from our head coach and the lack of heat from the media when he continually shifted blame for our losses back on the players. I started reading all the crap from Lyon devotees throughout that period and all the one sided debate regarding keeping him on as the Saints coach and decided to register and join the madhouse here

Yes I was, under the same user, but had to re-register under the same name a couple of times!!!!!

[Linton Lodger]

I thought I'd look at our recruiting since 2012 to have a precise look at how we've gone.

Obviously 2012 was almost completely non productive. We definitely wasted Pick 12 on Tom Lee and there's a strong argument that we wasted Pick 13 on Hickey. I understand we wanted Grundy but we were certain he'd go Top 10, in the end Grundy went at 18. Despite the miscalculation on Grundy, it was still slim pickings if we hadn't taken Lee & Hickey, in what was a compromised and ordinary draft. Lee had been a Top 10 pick in his first time around and had topped the WAFL goalkicking that year, other Clubs were also hovering. Aside from Hickey, Lewis Pierce is the only one still on our List from that draft.

2013 we drafted Billings, Dunstan, Acres and got Weller, Holmes and Templeton in the Rookie draft. Most of the angst with this draft comes down to Billings v Bontempelli. I think we did well, we won't know precisely how well for a few years, but it may turn out to be a sensational draft for us. Weller was a steal at pick 20 in the Rookie draft. We traded in Savage, Longer and Bruce. A very productive draft I think.

2014 and most of the angst is in relation to our use of Pick 1. I unlike many, think we made the right choice. If we had chosen to take a mid, then Brayshaw would've been a better pick than Petracca. We drafted McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie and Lonie. The arguments about McCartin have gone on and I've expressed my views. Goddard was expected to be the No.1 a year before the draft and many had him Top 10 in the end. It was a no brainer to take him when still there at 21. Unfortunately he has been disrupted by injuries. McKenzie and Lonie are the ones that were looking like busts, however Mc Kenzie has been good in recent weeks. Its important to note that we took Lonie in the 40s, we considered Caleb Daniel with that pick (he's currently playing VFL). We got Sinclair (what a steal!) and Payne in the Rookie Draft.

2015 we traded Pick 5 for Carlisle, fantastic acquisition. Then we drafted Gresham, Rice and White, nice trio. We rookie drafted O'Kearney and Coughlan. In addition to Carlisle we traded in Freeman. Freeman will be a risk that didn't come off or a triumphant recruiting coup. If his body holds up it will be the latter.

2016 we drafted Long, Battle and Phillips, they're all looking promising. We traded in Steele and Koby Stevens. We got Marshall in the Rookie draft.

2017 we drafted Clark, Coffield, Clavarino and Paton. Clark & Coffield look to be beauties and Paton is pushing for senior selection. We got Laglands in the Rookie draft and traded in Austin, who has had two fine games to kick off his career.

We got Ross with Pick 25 in 2011, Webster with 42! and Newnes with 37.

We have recruited about 50 players since Lyon's departure, over half of them are still on the List. 2012 was wasted, however I think its difficult to form an argument that our recruiting has been crap. In fact the last 2 years are starting to look inspired! It was our recruiting between 2006 and 2010 that was awful.

[saynta]

I thought I'd look at our recruiting since 2012 to have a precise look at how we've gone.

Obviously 2012 was almost completely non productive. We definitely wasted Pick 12 on Tom Lee and there's a strong argument that we wasted Pick 13 on Hickey. I understand we wanted Grundy but we were certain he'd go Top 10, in the end Grundy went at 18. Despite the miscalculation on Grundy, it was still slim pickings if we hadn't taken Lee & Hickey, in what was a comprised and ordinary draft. Lee had been a Top 10 pick in his first time around and had topped the WAFL goalkicking that year, other Clubs were also hovering. Aside from Hickey, Lewis Pierce is the only one still on our List from that draft.

2013 we drafted Billings, Dunstan, Acres and got Weller, Holmes and Templeton in the Rookie draft. Most of the angst with this draft comes down to Billings v Bontempelli. I think we did well, we won't know precisely how well for a few years, but it may turn out to be a sensational draft for us. Weller was a steal at pick 20 in the Rookie draft. We traded in Savage, Longer and Bruce. A very productive draft I think.

2014 and most of the angst is in relation to our use of Pick 1. I unlike many, think we made the right choice. If we had chosen to take a mid, then Brayshaw would've been a better pick than Petracca. We drafted McCartin, Goddard, McKenzie and Lonie. The arguments about McCartin have gone on and I've expressed my views. Goddard was expected to be the No.1 a year before the draft and many had him Top 10 in the end. It was a no brainer to take him when still there at 21. Unfortunately he has been disrupted by injuries. McKenzie and Lonie are the ones that were looking like busts, however Mc Kenzie has been good in recent weeks. Its important to note that we took Lonie in the 40s, we considered Caleb Daniel with that pick (he's currently playing VFL). We got Sinclair (what a steal!) and Payne in the Rookie Draft.

2015 we traded Pick 5 for Carlisle, fantastic acquisition. Then we drafted Gresham, Rice and White, nice trio. We rookie drafted O'Kearney and Coughlan. In addition to Carlisle we traded in Freeman. Freeman will be a risk that didn't come off or a triumphant recruiting coup. If his body holds up it will be the latter.

2016 we drafted Long, Battle and Phillips, they're all looking promising. We traded in Steele and Koby Stevens. We got Marshall in the Rookie draft.

2017 we drafted Clark, Coffield, Clavarino and Paton. Clark & Coffield look to be beauties and Paton is pushing for senior selection. We got Laglands in the Rookie draft and traded in Austin, who has had two fine games to kick off his career.

We got Ross with Pick 25 in 2011, Webster with 42! and Newnes with 37.

We have recruited about 50 players since Lyon's departure, over half of them are still on the List. 2012 was wasted, however I think its difficult to form an argument that our recruiting has been crap. In fact the last 2 years are starting to look inspired! It was our recruiting between 2006 and 2010 that was awful.

Good post. Excellent research.

[Yorkeys]

Thanks L. Lodger, appreciated and enlightening. Has buggered my knee jerk criticisms but. Damn facts and logic again. Well played.

[SaintPav]

Fairly balanced review LL and optimistic on both McCartin and Billings, but I think they are the key to any reasonable assessment of Trout.

If they both don't come through, Trout and his team will have to be marked as a big fail.

[DJ Higgins]

Good post above but it can't hide the fact that we haven't picked or drafted an elite player even with 2 top 3 picks. Maybe Sinclair. Yes last year his stats were elite. I amn not saying it has been all bad but it hasn't been great which is reflected by our position on the ladder and difficulty in landing a big fish free agent.
It is also the positions we have drafted that is a concern. Hbf anyone or the same inside mids? Too much of the same.
Last chance this year for them. If they don't pick a gun oitside mid they are gone

[SaintPav]

Roo was frustrated with the passes over his head and at his ankles 3/4 times a game, that is why he should have kicked at least 100 more goals in his career and maybe got a flag. I wont support AFL players who cant kick 30-40 metres with reasonable accuracy, one of the current mobs biggest issues and directly related to recruiting bar Goddard and Montagna and a couple of others over the years.

i look back at games from the 90's, and grounds looked worse than Etihad,
but our skiils are worse now than back then.
The grass was wet, muddy etc, but guys could kick better than some of ours now.
Roo and other forwards are getting poor delivery.
And these are professionals.

After reading this and some of your other posts, it just occurred to me that you probably have a mental disability (IQ between 26 - 70).

I'm not laughing at you but feeble minded people like you shouldn't reproduce.

<warning for demeaning a poster>