Richardson's Flawed Theory?

[Sanctorum]

On the other hand ....
Our biggest loss all year was only by 50 points ... despite our challenging draw, wholesale injuries and below-par recruiting - including that of Weller.

71 actually - against the Swans, plus two more over 50 points against North and Richmond. Adelaide was 49 points.

We were coached to not lose by too much rather than actively taking games on, and when sides piled goals on against us in very quick succession, we were asked to "park the last five minutes of the first half" - which in a way was asking us to suspend disbelief at the way sides could blow us out of the water and put games out of our reach in a very brief space of time.

Nothing personal, but in terms of match day performances I don't rate the assistants, and I don't rate our senior coach. We had a tough draw and we had shocking injuries to key players, but we still should have done better than winning 4 matches.

Selection was questionable and often didn't make sense, transition into the forward line was frustrating to watch, our scoring conversion was very bad, and the strategy to put more numbers in defence when we were actually playing well and challenging were four issues I had with the Saints this year.

Our flawed theory may be in blaming it all on the coach, and overlooking/downplaying all other factors.

Freo had one or two injuries in 2016 and managed only 4 wins and tumbled from being a grand finalist and minor premier in 2015 - despite their significant home ground advantage.
We had significantly more injuries than Freo did ( in 2016) this year... and we weren’t a grand finalist in 2017. We didn’t tumble by 15 positions on the ladder.
Not saying Richo is good or bad .... just asking how would we know?
How do you isolate a coach’s performance or compare coaches when they are in charge of different teams, with different levels of talent?
Is it bad coaching or an average list overall and a challenging draw plus injuries in our case... And who are our elite A graders and players with x factor?
Most of our accumulators/midfielders consistently butcher the ball - they are not elite skilled, especially under pressure.

Freo got smashed by 130 points this year ... we lost one game by 70 points and had a couple of 50 point losses.
Austin, Steele, Membrey, Roberton have all significantly improved since crossing to us from their previous clubs - how do we account for this?
Austin averaged 7 possessions over 2016 and 2017 with 89% game time at Port Adelaide ...he’s averaging around 20 possessions per game with us in his first season!
I am just asking how do we know ... and also questioning our below-par recruiting over the last 10-12 years. We might actually be getting the most of our available talent.
Again, how would we actually know?
We should be looking at all other factors .. not just coaching, which is hard to tease out and isolate from all else to accurately measure/rate, anyway.

On the other hand ....
Our biggest loss all year was only by 50 points ... despite our challenging draw, wholesale injuries and below-par recruiting - including that of Weller.

71 actually - against the Swans, plus two more over 50 points against North and Richmond. Adelaide was 49 points.

We were coached to not lose by too much rather than actively taking games on, and when sides piled goals on against us in very quick succession, we were asked to "park the last five minutes of the first half" - which in a way was asking us to suspend disbelief at the way sides could blow us out of the water and put games out of our reach in a very brief space of time.

Nothing personal, but in terms of match day performances I don't rate the assistants, and I don't rate our senior coach. We had a tough draw and we had shocking injuries to key players, but we still should have done better than winning 4 matches.

Selection was questionable and often didn't make sense, transition into the forward line was frustrating to watch, our scoring conversion was very bad, and the strategy to put more numbers in defence when we were actually playing well and challenging were four issues I had with the Saints this year.

Our flawed theory may be in blaming it all on the coach, and overlooking/downplaying all other factors.

Freo had one or two injuries in 2016 and managed only 4 wins and tumbled from being a grand finalist and minor premier in 2015 - despite their significant home ground advantage.
We had significantly more injuries than Freo did ( in 2016) this year... and we weren’t a grand finalist in 2017. We didn’t tumble by 15 positions on the ladder.
Not saying Richo is good or bad .... just asking how would we know?
How do you isolate a coach’s performance or compare coaches when they are in charge of different teams, with different levels of talent?
Is it bad coaching or an average list overall and a challenging draw plus injuries in our case... And who are our elite A graders and players with x factor?
Most of our accumulators/midfielders consistently butcher the ball - they are not elite skilled, especially under pressure.

Freo got smashed by 130 points this year ... we lost one game by 70 points and had a couple of 50 point losses.
Austin, Steele, Membrey, Roberton have all significantly improved since crossing to us from their previous clubs - how do we account for this?
Austin averaged 7 possessions over 2016 and 2017 with 89% game time at Port Adelaide ...he’s averaging around 20 possessions per game with us in his first season!
I am just asking how do we know ... and also questioning our below-par recruiting over the last 10-12 years. We might actually be getting the most of our available talent.
Again, how would we actually know?
We should be looking at all other factors .. not just coaching, which is hard to tease out and isolate from all else to accurately measure/rate, anyway.

Two excellent posts, because as much as a lot of supporters want to sink the boot into Alan Richardson for the team's demise in 2018, there are many factors that contribute to the team's performance, not least being the responsibility of the players themselves being accountable for their poor form. Comments by Tom Hickey and Mav Weller do not necessarily indicate confusion about the coaches game plans - it should be noted neither Hickey nor Weller had expressed a desire to leave St Kilda, nor has any other player sought to leave "the sinking ship"....and I feel certain that if the players had any issues with the game plans or coaching directions, they would have expressed this through the season.

To my mind, THE most important factor in any sporing team's success is leadership, both on and off the field. If you look at any of the successful clubs in recent years, and that applies to other sporting codes equally, strong on field leadership is the common denominator. If this element is missing, then the team is not going to get the ultimate prize. It could be argued that for all his magnificent athletic and marking skills, Nick Riewoldt never played up to his best standards in either of the Grand Finals in 2009 and 2010 - compared to his opposites in Tom Harley and Nick Maxwell. (Now please don't accuse me of sacrilege, nor do I want to start a debate, because I fully acknowledge that Roo was a true champion of the StKFC, I am merely saying that he tended to get stage fright in the big games, and that's an observation, not a criticism!).

The club has obviously acknowledged that leadership has been a massive problem, hence the recruitment of Billy Slater, an absolute champion sportsman, to focus on team leadership. Likewise bringing in Dan Hannebery from the Swans with his renowned leadership credentials, and elite skills, will help to bring about a lot of improvement in on field leadership.

It is an indictment of the team's lack of depth in leadership that when Riewoldt stepped down as captain at the end of 2016, the players could only come up with Jarryn Geary, who at best is only an average player. I agree that Geary has had some good games as a defensive stopper, but so has Jack Steele in particular, and my difficulty in him remaining skipper in 2019 is that when his form drops off he is not going to be sent down to the seconds to make way for any number of others that can fill his role down back.

So my hope is that the club will do a thorough review of team leadership and bring in a new generation group for 2019 - Seb Ross, Dylan Roberton, Jack Steven should all come into contenton, and of course Dan Hannebery.

[sunsaint]

- it should be noted neither Hickey nor Weller had expressed a desire to leave St Kilda, nor has any other player sought to leave "the sinking ship"....and I feel certain that if the players had any issues with the game plans or coaching directions, they would have expressed this through the season.

ok some very long & verbose posts there - so I feel like a bit of fraud by being brief
perhaps one of the reasons for not "jumping ship" is the clubs preference to sign up & extend contracts for everyone early
its interesting that you name JS as being in a leadership group as he was one player that did voice his concerns with AR over the future of the club - and then there were the constant rumours about him going to Geelong. Smoke =>fire

And ok I know during game time things can get pretty heated on the phone to the coach's box - but I do recall occasions where a player with a bemused/confused look pointing to different parts of the ground while trying to explain (whatever)
the only thing missing was a face palm after the call.

If our club had just one problem - then yeah it probably would have been fixed (?)
and personally I believe we still have a "LOT" of playing list problems
but I tell you - I am just oh so pleased that the club have brought in some new blood into the coach's box - at the very least it might provide a smoother transition process post AR...

[Sanctorum]

Fair comments sunsaint, but as we have seen in the recent player changes, being on contract has hardly held anyone back (other than Tim Kelly) - Dayne Beams is a classic example as he wanted "out" of the Lions to go back to the Pies and possibly contend for a premiership. As for the body language of players on the interchange bench, it is pure guesswork to link that to perceived confusion of the game plan, we'll never know one way or the other. There's no way JS would have stayed on at STKFC if he was in any way unhappy with the coaching or game plan or whatever, and Geelong would have been happy to take him.

[Cairnsman]

On the other hand ....
Our biggest loss all year was only by 50 points ... despite our challenging draw, wholesale injuries and below-par recruiting - including that of Weller.

71 actually - against the Swans, plus two more over 50 points against North and Richmond. Adelaide was 49 points.

We were coached to not lose by too much rather than actively taking games on, and when sides piled goals on against us in very quick succession, we were asked to "park the last five minutes of the first half" - which in a way was asking us to suspend disbelief at the way sides could blow us out of the water and put games out of our reach in a very brief space of time.

Nothing personal, but in terms of match day performances I don't rate the assistants, and I don't rate our senior coach. We had a tough draw and we had shocking injuries to key players, but we still should have done better than winning 4 matches.

Selection was questionable and often didn't make sense, transition into the forward line was frustrating to watch, our scoring conversion was very bad, and the strategy to put more numbers in defence when we were actually playing well and challenging were four issues I had with the Saints this year.

Our flawed theory may be in blaming it all on the coach, and overlooking/downplaying all other factors.

Freo had one or two injuries in 2016 and managed only 4 wins and tumbled from being a grand finalist and minor premier in 2015 - despite their significant home ground advantage.
We had significantly more injuries than Freo did ( in 2016) this year... and we weren’t a grand finalist in 2017. We didn’t tumble by 15 positions on the ladder.
Not saying Richo is good or bad .... just asking how would we know?
How do you isolate a coach’s performance or compare coaches when they are in charge of different teams, with different levels of talent?
Is it bad coaching or an average list overall and a challenging draw plus injuries in our case... And who are our elite A graders and players with x factor?
Most of our accumulators/midfielders consistently butcher the ball - they are not elite skilled, especially under pressure.

Freo got smashed by 130 points this year ... we lost one game by 70 points and had a couple of 50 point losses.
Austin, Steele, Membrey, Roberton have all significantly improved since crossing to us from their previous clubs - how do we account for this?
Austin averaged 7 possessions over 2016 and 2017 with 89% game time at Port Adelaide ...he’s averaging around 20 possessions per game with us in his first season!
I am just asking how do we know ... and also questioning our below-par recruiting over the last 10-12 years. We might actually be getting the most of our available talent.
Again, how would we actually know?
We should be looking at all other factors .. not just coaching, which is hard to tease out and isolate from all else to accurately measure/rate, anyway.

On the other hand ....
Our biggest loss all year was only by 50 points ... despite our challenging draw, wholesale injuries and below-par recruiting - including that of Weller.

71 actually - against the Swans, plus two more over 50 points against North and Richmond. Adelaide was 49 points.

We were coached to not lose by too much rather than actively taking games on, and when sides piled goals on against us in very quick succession, we were asked to "park the last five minutes of the first half" - which in a way was asking us to suspend disbelief at the way sides could blow us out of the water and put games out of our reach in a very brief space of time.

Nothing personal, but in terms of match day performances I don't rate the assistants, and I don't rate our senior coach. We had a tough draw and we had shocking injuries to key players, but we still should have done better than winning 4 matches.

Selection was questionable and often didn't make sense, transition into the forward line was frustrating to watch, our scoring conversion was very bad, and the strategy to put more numbers in defence when we were actually playing well and challenging were four issues I had with the Saints this year.

Our flawed theory may be in blaming it all on the coach, and overlooking/downplaying all other factors.

Freo had one or two injuries in 2016 and managed only 4 wins and tumbled from being a grand finalist and minor premier in 2015 - despite their significant home ground advantage.
We had significantly more injuries than Freo did ( in 2016) this year... and we weren’t a grand finalist in 2017. We didn’t tumble by 15 positions on the ladder.
Not saying Richo is good or bad .... just asking how would we know?
How do you isolate a coach’s performance or compare coaches when they are in charge of different teams, with different levels of talent?
Is it bad coaching or an average list overall and a challenging draw plus injuries in our case... And who are our elite A graders and players with x factor?
Most of our accumulators/midfielders consistently butcher the ball - they are not elite skilled, especially under pressure.

Freo got smashed by 130 points this year ... we lost one game by 70 points and had a couple of 50 point losses.
Austin, Steele, Membrey, Roberton have all significantly improved since crossing to us from their previous clubs - how do we account for this?
Austin averaged 7 possessions over 2016 and 2017 with 89% game time at Port Adelaide ...he’s averaging around 20 possessions per game with us in his first season!
I am just asking how do we know ... and also questioning our below-par recruiting over the last 10-12 years. We might actually be getting the most of our available talent.
Again, how would we actually know?
We should be looking at all other factors .. not just coaching, which is hard to tease out and isolate from all else to accurately measure/rate, anyway.

Two excellent posts, because as much as a lot of supporters want to sink the boot into Alan Richardson for the team's demise in 2018, there are many factors that contribute to the team's performance, not least being the responsibility of the players themselves being accountable for their poor form. Comments by Tom Hickey and Mav Weller do not necessarily indicate confusion about the coaches game plans - it should be noted neither Hickey nor Weller had expressed a desire to leave St Kilda, nor has any other player sought to leave "the sinking ship"....and I feel certain that if the players had any issues with the game plans or coaching directions, they would have expressed this through the season.

To my mind, THE most important factor in any sporing team's success is leadership, both on and off the field. If you look at any of the successful clubs in recent years, and that applies to other sporting codes equally, strong on field leadership is the common denominator. If this element is missing, then the team is not going to get the ultimate prize. It could be argued that for all his magnificent athletic and marking skills, Nick Riewoldt never played up to his best standards in either of the Grand Finals in 2009 and 2010 - compared to his opposites in Tom Harley and Nick Maxwell. (Now please don't accuse me of sacrilege, nor do I want to start a debate, because I fully acknowledge that Roo was a true champion of the StKFC, I am merely saying that he tended to get stage fright in the big games, and that's an observation, not a criticism!).

The club has obviously acknowledged that leadership has been a massive problem, hence the recruitment of Billy Slater, an absolute champion sportsman, to focus on team leadership. Likewise bringing in Dan Hannebery from the Swans with his renowned leadership credentials, and elite skills, will help to bring about a lot of improvement in on field leadership.

It is an indictment of the team's lack of depth in leadership that when Riewoldt stepped down as captain at the end of 2016, the players could only come up with Jarryn Geary, who at best is only an average player. I agree that Geary has had some good games as a defensive stopper, but so has Jack Steele in particular, and my difficulty in him remaining skipper in 2019 is that when his form drops off he is not going to be sent down to the seconds to make way for any number of others that can fill his role down back.

So my hope is that the club will do a thorough review of team leadership and bring in a new generation group for 2019 - Seb Ross, Dylan Roberton, Jack Steven should all come into contenton, and of course Dan Hannebery.

Concur, two good posts, balanced and objective. The focus on the head coach alone is way too narrow. You also raise another good point that has been lost on the frothers and bubblers, player accountability. Don't they say "the sum of all parts" is the key to success.

[Premium89]

A balanced thread?? I see it, but I don’t believe it!!