Concerns about our performance

[markp]

Last year is done and lost, this year is still in play and ours for the taking.

I reckon we're sitting just where we need to be as we hit the final lap.

To me the most significant and telling thing I've seen thus far was our second half against the cats... we held that team to 3 points in a half of footy, with Roo in the stands.

We've had our sights set on them and redemption at the G in September since the final siren last year... it's going to be freaking epic.

Lets not discount the Cats side on the park that night in amongst our euphoria......sure we missed Roo/Gram....but they too had some key injured players out......did Chapman play? (honestly cant remember).

From memory, they missed Chapman and Corey...given the wet conditions I agree that Chapman was a significant out.

Yep, but I think Gram being out covers the absence of Chapman... to cover Roo's you'd have to take the likes of Ablett out too.

Held them to 3 points in a half!... who else could/has even come close to that?

It would be interesting to see our tackle count for that half compared to other games this year, and our average for last year.

As MM points out above, if you cant just 'flick a switch' then what do most teams do when finals start every year?

I truly believe we're about to unleash of hell.

Oh, just because I agreed Chapman's absence from the game was significant....

Please don't confuse me with someone who doesn't subscribe to the 'we are SO going to flick the switch' theory markp, I consider myself a pioneer on the matter and even started a thread on it a couple of weeks back...

Of course... I know we're well and truly on the same page!

[saint3d]

The FACTS are I can recall sitting there watching this side last year in absolute awe at their ability to go at the man with the ball, almost create "perceived" pressure and create a turn over. To watch Geelong caught time and again in Rd 14 2009 whilst trying to get the ball out of our fwd 50.

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

You would have loved round 13 2010. Shame you missed it.

Where did I say I missed it?

odd comment.

So you saw a 4 qtr effort akin to the 4 qtr effort anxd intensity we delivered in 09 at the Rd 13 game......did you feel that way at half time?.....

Its also odd you feel we dont need 4 qtr efforts at the level delivered last year a week out from finals.....yet its all Ross Lyon keeps referring to....the fact we are tracking at about 80% and need to build......

But what would he know right?....I mean we have you....

At half time I recall thinking 'they've thrown the kitchen sink at us and we're still only two goals down'. I wasn't thinking 'gee the intensity isn't good enough'. I certainly wasn't thinking about last year.

I don't remember saying we don't need four quarter efforts. I would say that in 2010, four quarter efforts at the intensity St Kilda can achieve are not sustainable on a weekly basis. The time we need a four quarter effort is in the finals. To say we need 100% intensity in round 22 or round 16 or round 7 to be able to deliver it in the finals is arbitrary.

Besides all that, our intensity has improved compared to this time last year. What does that tell us?

[rexy]

Long, interesting and mature post from all

Some points, dont think we can flick any switches but I do think that a side can be coached into and out of top form on purpose. Selection, positioning, coaches response to opposition moves, different players time in the middle etc will all have an influence on whether we reach potential or not. Example would be Goddard and the use of him, how much time he is in the middle, do we use him as a sweeper, do we throw him forward for a short spurt etc, on saturday I felt like Ross was using BJ to satisfy his own curiosity, not where he was most needed at all times, similar could be said for the Gilbert, Saturday i felt like we gave him the ball on command, almost like the coach needed him to get as many disposals as possible and try and kick his way out of his disposal wobbles?

Other examples would be Stanley and Patto both having a game in the ruck in the last 2 weeks, Im sure one is rated above the other but we appeared to be keen for both to get a game in the final rounds of the year. Also think at different times we have played Jones on the wrong player to test his ability to adapt to flankers, guys who can take you forward etc and also we have layed him a few times just as a mid with no real job to do but win his own ball.

Think Ross learnt a lot last year from the Bartel to Hayes move in the GF, completely unexpected and we had no answer, maybe this year the answer might be that lenny goes to a forward pocket and plays as a defensive forward and Jones is told to concentrate on winning clearances (just an example).

Dont think we can flick a switch but expect to see a highly competitive team in the finals, if we win the lot or get knocked out along the way, I dont beleive it will be through poor attitude, preperation etc. Intensity will be there as will desire hunger and anything else you want to throw up.

FWIW, whoever it was who said Gram and Chapman were equal players has not watched enough of Geelong IMO, Chapman is a superstar who can play all over the ground and does nearly everything right IMO. I like Gram but he is not as hard, not as smart and his disposal is not as good! Thats not ticking many boxes in the comparison fro where i sit.

[saint3d]

This year, we hope/think that if we turn up to play we will beat anyone.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I think the uncertainty is almost entirely along the lines of 'will we turn up to play'.

Doesnt the fact there are concerns on whether or not we'll turn up to play speak directly to the level of consisitency in our intensity?

Didnt 09 deliver that consistency in intensity regulalry to at least give us a chance to win a flag? (whether we manage to kick straight or not)...isnt that what you're banging on about??? the chance to win a flag???

If so, how can you not aspire to the level of intensity that we got week in week out from 09?

Strange.

I was just saying I don't think there's much uncertainty about whether our best is enough to win.

You seem to be reading too much into what I'm saying.

Of course I want to see the high-intensity four quarter efforts. I got to liking it last year, knowing what to expect every week and seeing it delivered every week.

But as we learnt last year, a whole season of that doesn't buy you a premiership. So this year I'm content to watch the Saints play really well some of the time and not so well other times, and win most games on the way to a top four spot. But once the finals start it's a whole new ball game and there's no more opportunities to play at below 100% intensity.

It seems to have escaped you in your quest for the holy grail of 'intensity 09' is the fact that the last three rounds of the home and away season were (if not completely, then close to) the lowest intensity for the year. That didn't seem to make much difference once the finals started.

I worry about 'turning it on' at the right time and whether we will (although not as much as some others due to my incurable optimism). But like I've said before the team doesn't need to execute a 100% intensity four quarter effort now to convince me they can do it in the finals. To be honest even if I saw one it wouldn't convince me that they will do it in the finals. The proof of the pudding and all that.

Even though this year looks a lot different to last, it appears to me the team will enter the finals in peak physical and mental condition. I can't ask for more than that.

[Teflon]

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

You would have loved round 13 2010. Shame you missed it.

Exactly

The intensity that we played with in 2009 was exhasuting mentally and physically. Why would we want our team doing that every week.

We want that against the good sides, which we have seen (except round 16).

Saturday was a win was a win, we tried a few things.. Miles, Milne (more up the ground), etc and noone got badly hurt... ticks

Do we see usain bolt running flat out in the heats, no because he doesn't have to.

It is all about the preparation for the finals and how we come out saturday week.

Sure, we've got the switch in the cupboard waiting to flick....cause thats how footy teams work.

If so, why was the coach less than enthused with half the game?.....

You dont flirt with form - turn it on/off.

Then how would you explain the performance in R22 last year against the performance 1 week later in teh Qualifying Final?

I'm not sure why you're arguing the point?
Compared to last year, that we're not playing with the same intesity is a given.
But is that a deliberate ploy or a reflection of us 'slipping backwards'?

Interestingly, other than the R16 Collingwood game where there were seemingly extenuating circumstances, we've performde better against the good teams than against the weaker ones.
To me that's a sign of us 'relaxing' against those teams we feel we have the measure of, adn setting ourselves against those teams we feel we have a point to prove.

You mention half time of the R13 Geelong game.
I honestly didn't feel we were out of that game.
We're not the same team as prior to 2009 when all other teams had to do was get 4 goals up on us and we were finished.
There exudes a 'confidence' amongst our team that they are never beaten (and yes they do get beaten).

I for one will not be surprised to see us come out against Geelong and produce a 'pressure cauldron' against them, belying the insipid form we've been showing.

I think you miss the point.

Im not comparing a lapse against a side in Rd 22 last year (after we'd been up for 19 prior) and our performance in those finals to our current season where most objective observors commonly acknowledge St Kilda's zone has been easier to score against and has had its defensive game (at least on the all important fwd 50 tackle/turn over count) drop off. IMHO this has manifested itself in hurting our scoring ability which sees our Pts For rank alongside Essendon.

Im not sure why you'd think comparing 1 game last year (when Im talking about our 2010 season overall to date) is even relevant?

I've also not said we cant turn current form around come finals - lets face it we'd want to cause play a half like we did against Tigers where all we did was turn the ball over..... and we'll see how long in the game against the Cats we last. Im not as convinced as you that we have the heavy scoring capability this year to come back from 6 or 7 goals like Geelong have shown they can.

I guess the distinction is you feel we have planned this drop away in intensity and we somehow turn it on against the good sides. Maybe....but I dont think Ross Lyon thought the same against Essendon.... nor am I convinced he thought the same against Tigers at half time.

btw whose arguing - we're talking footy on a footy forum,.,.isnt that what it should be?

[Teflon]

The FACTS are I can recall sitting there watching this side last year in absolute awe at their ability to go at the man with the ball, almost create "perceived" pressure and create a turn over. To watch Geelong caught time and again in Rd 14 2009 whilst trying to get the ball out of our fwd 50.

I have not seen that level in 2010 and for me to win it we need it.

You would have loved round 13 2010. Shame you missed it.

Where did I say I missed it?

odd comment.

So you saw a 4 qtr effort akin to the 4 qtr effort anxd intensity we delivered in 09 at the Rd 13 game......did you feel that way at half time?.....

Its also odd you feel we dont need 4 qtr efforts at the level delivered last year a week out from finals.....yet its all Ross Lyon keeps referring to....the fact we are tracking at about 80% and need to build......

But what would he know right?....I mean we have you....

At half time I recall thinking 'they've thrown the kitchen sink at us and we're still only two goals down'. I wasn't thinking 'gee the intensity isn't good enough'. I certainly wasn't thinking about last year.

I don't remember saying we don't need four quarter efforts. I would say that in 2010, four quarter efforts at the intensity St Kilda can achieve are not sustainable on a weekly basis. The time we need a four quarter effort is in the finals. To say we need 100% intensity in round 22 or round 16 or round 7 to be able to deliver it in the finals is arbitrary.

Besides all that, our intensity has improved compared to this time last year. What does that tell us?

Im all for turning on intensity when needed, I guess my view of it differs markedly from yours.

I'd prefer to have seen - at least in these last few games leading into finals....something akin to a 4 qtr game where we kept a side under pressure for the whole game. To me form/effort takes time to build. Collingwood didnt just decide mid season they were gonna go on an 11 game streak......they built towards it.

Still, more than happy to have the side flick the switch come finals..

[Teflon]

This year, we hope/think that if we turn up to play we will beat anyone.

I agree with the rest of your post, but I think the uncertainty is almost entirely along the lines of 'will we turn up to play'.

Doesnt the fact there are concerns on whether or not we'll turn up to play speak directly to the level of consisitency in our intensity?

Didnt 09 deliver that consistency in intensity regulalry to at least give us a chance to win a flag? (whether we manage to kick straight or not)...isnt that what you're banging on about??? the chance to win a flag???

If so, how can you not aspire to the level of intensity that we got week in week out from 09?

Strange.

It seems to have escaped you in your quest for the holy grail of 'intensity 09' is the fact that the last three rounds of the home and away season were (if not completely, then close to) the lowest intensity for the year. That didn't seem to make much difference once the finals started.

I worry about 'turning it on' at the right time and whether we will (although not as much as some others due to my incurable optimism). But like I've said before the team doesn't need to execute a 100% intensity four quarter effort now to convince me they can do it in the finals. To be honest even if I saw one it wouldn't convince me that they will do it in the finals. The proof of the pudding and all that.

Again, the point I make is I havent seen that same level of intensity we had in 09 delivered in 2010 with any consistency. I dont think this is an outlandish claim......

Whilst I agree we dont need to be at that level for the whole year (not sure Ive ever said that...in my holy grail searching...) but I'd have liked to have seen us at the least string a few of these performances together leading up to finals...considering they'll need to produce 3 in a row to win a GF and havent produced IMHO 3 of these types of performances in a row in 2010...

Call me old fashioned, as opposed to your clearly new aged "optimism".

[Teflon]

Long, interesting and mature post from all

Some points, dont think we can flick any switches but I do think that a side can be coached into and out of top form on purpose. Selection, positioning, coaches response to opposition moves, different players time in the middle etc will all have an influence on whether we reach potential or not. Example would be Goddard and the use of him, how much time he is in the middle, do we use him as a sweeper, do we throw him forward for a short spurt etc, on saturday I felt like Ross was using BJ to satisfy his own curiosity, not where he was most needed at all times, similar could be said for the Gilbert, Saturday i felt like we gave him the ball on command, almost like the coach needed him to get as many disposals as possible and try and kick his way out of his disposal wobbles?

Other examples would be Stanley and Patto both having a game in the ruck in the last 2 weeks, Im sure one is rated above the other but we appeared to be keen for both to get a game in the final rounds of the year. Also think at different times we have played Jones on the wrong player to test his ability to adapt to flankers, guys who can take you forward etc and also we have layed him a few times just as a mid with no real job to do but win his own ball.

Think Ross learnt a lot last year from the Bartel to Hayes move in the GF, completely unexpected and we had no answer, maybe this year the answer might be that lenny goes to a forward pocket and plays as a defensive forward and Jones is told to concentrate on winning clearances (just an example).

Dont think we can flick a switch but expect to see a highly competitive team in the finals, if we win the lot or get knocked out along the way, I dont beleive it will be through poor attitude, preperation etc. Intensity will be there as will desire hunger and anything else you want to throw up.

FWIW, whoever it was who said Gram and Chapman were equal players has not watched enough of Geelong IMO, Chapman is a superstar who can play all over the ground and does nearly everything right IMO. I like Gram but he is not as hard, not as smart and his disposal is not as good! Thats not ticking many boxes in the comparison fro where i sit.

Good call re Gram. Doesnt do Chapmans shoe laces Im afraid......Chapmans a consistent star.....Gram on his day is a very good player.

I think Geelong Rd 13 also missed Ottens and Joel Corey?.....and Ling went to Hayes and not Dal?.......they were foxing.....I dont put to much emphasis on that win...(a good win) but lets keep it real....

[markp]

Chapman and Gram were virtually a dead heat for the Norm Smith last year, and I think we've missed him more sorely from our 'structure' than most external observers have acknowledged... but for the sake of the argument you can equate the absence of Chapman to Roo if you like....

And it was not the win that was extraordinary in round 13, it was only conceding 3 points to them in an entire half of footy.

Agree totally re the tinkering and practice match mode of the last couple of weeks... we definitely seem to have gone out with a different set of priorities than just the game at hand.

I guess there's only one way to really know if we are going to flick the switch or not... and it's about 10 days away.

Cant freaking wait.

[Teflon]

I guess there's only one way to really know if we are going to flick the switch or not... and it's about 10 days away.

Cant freaking wait.

Agree with all of that.

I for one am praying this season has all just been some deliberate foxing, holding back, trying new things, pacing ourselves....any other "reason" that can be attributed and that we indeed "flick the switch" in 10 days.

A win against the Cats first up would be enormous and go a long way to sending some shock waves through other GF aspirants....

[matrix]

im seriously worried about losing a quality player to injury against the crows
imagine joey or gilbert going down
bj gets cleaned up?

i couldnt care if we win lose or draw tbh
lets just get thru it, get some run in the legs and get ready to belt the cats the week after

[S.A Saint]

im seriously worried about losing a quality player to injury against the crows
imagine joey or gilbert going down
bj gets cleaned up?

i couldnt care if we win lose or draw tbh
lets just get thru it, get some run in the legs and get ready to belt the cats the week after

agree..also hoping that the weather dries up before saturday as its been cold windy and wet and a slog in these conditions wouldnt be the best preperation to meet the cats a week later..

[bergholt]

agree..also hoping that the weather dries up before saturday as its been cold windy and wet and a slog in these conditions wouldnt be the best preperation to meet the cats a week later..

looks like it will be getting a little better:

Friday Shower or two. Min 9 Max 14
Saturday Mainly fine. Partly cloudy. Min 7 Max 15
Sunday Fine. Mostly sunny. Min 5 Max 16

still fairly soft ground to work with though, i imagine.

[SainterK]

A win against the Cats first up would be enormous and go a long way to sending some shock waves through other GF aspirants....

and confirm that some of us were right all along

[SainterK]

im seriously worried about losing a quality player to injury against the crows
imagine joey or gilbert going down
bj gets cleaned up?

i couldnt care if we win lose or draw tbh
lets just get thru it, get some run in the legs and get ready to belt the cats the week after

Prefer them over there to be honest matrix, probably less risk