What should St Kilda's philosophy be on Trading this year?

[jamesmc]

2010 Round 6 v Bulldogs.
Final Scores 46-49.
Saints victory.
J Harbrow 36 Disposals and 2 Brownlow votes.

So thats a very low scoring game. Classic Lyon shut down. Saints victory. But still a half back was able to run riot.

Roo, Schneider, Eddy, Milne, Kosi are not renown for fwd pressure by anyone in known universe. This is a known known. Only the most one-eyed rose tinted Saints would argue it. I don't why you'd even waste time denying it. To protect a myth?

Shaw Harry and maxwell smashed us every time we played them. Shaw was close to BOG in drawn granny.

He was. But what is your point? There are 2 of you and you have yet to come up withy anything at all to make my point incorrect but keep trying. Mentioning players isn't really trying though. Its actually proving you don't have anything.

What is your point? All i can see you've said is " our forwards kept it in there a hell of a lot ".

Well at least I proved not one HBF got a brownlow vote against us and that is very strange when I was told they dominate. Also winning 19 in a row suggests they were dominating to much because most attacks start at the HB line. You andCon haven't given me one thing to suggest his initial statement is correct. Im sure if I could find tackles inside 50 that year we would be pretty high up but unfortunately I ant get it. maybe you can to prove me wrong because there is nothing yet to prove me wrong.

Are Shaw and OBrien HBF's ?
If so do you not agree they tore us a new one on quite a few occassions?

[plugger66]

2010 Round 6 v Bulldogs.
Final Scores 46-49.
Saints victory.
J Harbrow 36 Disposals and 2 Brownlow votes.

So thats a very low scoring game. Classic Lyon shut down. Saints victory. But still a half back was able to run riot.

Roo, Schneider, Eddy, Milne, Kosi are not renown for fwd pressure by anyone in known universe. This is a known known. Only the most one-eyed rose tinted Saints would argue it. I don't why you'd even waste time denying it. To protect a myth?

Shaw Harry and maxwell smashed us every time we played them. Shaw was close to BOG in drawn granny.

He was. But what is your point? There are 2 of you and you have yet to come up withy anything at all to make my point incorrect but keep trying. Mentioning players isn't really trying though. Its actually proving you don't have anything.

What is your point? All i can see you've said is " our forwards kept it in there a hell of a lot ".

Well at least I proved not one HBF got a brownlow vote against us and that is very strange when I was told they dominate. Also winning 19 in a row suggests they were dominating to much because most attacks start at the HB line. You andCon haven't given me one thing to suggest his initial statement is correct. Im sure if I could find tackles inside 50 that year we would be pretty high up but unfortunately I ant get it. maybe you can to prove me wrong because there is nothing yet to prove me wrong.

Are Shaw and OBrien HBF's ?
If so do you not agree they tore us a new one on quite a few occassions?

Its hard to say but O'Brien only had 28 possessions in 2 games and Shaw had 43 in 2 games. I wouldn't suggest that's a new one stats.

[jamesmc]

2010 Round 6 v Bulldogs.
Final Scores 46-49.
Saints victory.
J Harbrow 36 Disposals and 2 Brownlow votes.

So thats a very low scoring game. Classic Lyon shut down. Saints victory. But still a half back was able to run riot.

Roo, Schneider, Eddy, Milne, Kosi are not renown for fwd pressure by anyone in known universe. This is a known known. Only the most one-eyed rose tinted Saints would argue it. I don't why you'd even waste time denying it. To protect a myth?

Shaw Harry and maxwell smashed us every time we played them. Shaw was close to BOG in drawn granny.

He was. But what is your point? There are 2 of you and you have yet to come up withy anything at all to make my point incorrect but keep trying. Mentioning players isn't really trying though. Its actually proving you don't have anything.

What is your point? All i can see you've said is " our forwards kept it in there a hell of a lot ".

Well at least I proved not one HBF got a brownlow vote against us and that is very strange when I was told they dominate. Also winning 19 in a row suggests they were dominating to much because most attacks start at the HB line. You andCon haven't given me one thing to suggest his initial statement is correct. Im sure if I could find tackles inside 50 that year we would be pretty high up but unfortunately I ant get it. maybe you can to prove me wrong because there is nothing yet to prove me wrong.

Are Shaw and OBrien HBF's ?
If so do you not agree they tore us a new one on quite a few occassions?

Its hard to say but O'Brien only had 28 possessions in 2 games and Shaw had 43 in 2 games. I wouldn't suggest that's a new one stats.

I would

[Con Gorozidis]

2010 Round 6 v Bulldogs.
Final Scores 46-49.
Saints victory.
J Harbrow 36 Disposals and 2 Brownlow votes.

So thats a very low scoring game. Classic Lyon shut down. Saints victory. But still a half back was able to run riot.

Roo, Schneider, Eddy, Milne, Kosi are not renown for fwd pressure by anyone in known universe. This is a known known. Only the most one-eyed rose tinted Saints would argue it. I don't why you'd even waste time denying it. To protect a myth?

Shaw Harry and maxwell smashed us every time we played them. Shaw was close to BOG in drawn granny.

He was. But what is your point? There are 2 of you and you have yet to come up withy anything at all to make my point incorrect but keep trying. Mentioning players isn't really trying though. Its actually proving you don't have anything.

What is your point? All i can see you've said is " our forwards kept it in there a hell of a lot ".

Well at least I proved not one HBF got a brownlow vote against us and that is very strange when I was told they dominate. Also winning 19 in a row suggests they were dominating to much because most attacks start at the HB line. You andCon haven't given me one thing to suggest his initial statement is correct. Im sure if I could find tackles inside 50 that year we would be pretty high up but unfortunately I ant get it. maybe you can to prove me wrong because there is nothing yet to prove me wrong.

Harbrow got 2 Brownlow votes and 36 disposals against us in 2010 playing off HB for starters.

2010 GF 1 - Best Shaw, Maxwell, Thomas
GF2 - Best Shaw, Thomas

I cant be bothered looking up 09 - but I know Mackie and Corey gave us hell.
Heath Shaw gave us absolute hell in 2010 in both GFs. FFS. Just get a grip. You are so one eyed. We were good side - but not great and we had obvious flaws that everyone knows about.

I think you are trying to argue Eddy, Schneider, Roo, Milne and Kosi were renown for fwd pressure? is that right? I think you are maybe even comparing Schneids or Eddy to Cyril in fwd pressure. That is laugh out loud crazy hysterical.

Our fwds were witches hats

[plugger66]

Its hard to say but O'Brien only had 28 possessions in 2 games and Shaw had 43 in 2 games. I wouldn't suggest that's a new one stats.

I would

Now you are being silly. 9 possessions and 19 in each game and Shaw had 21 and 22. Tearing us a new what? Ordinary performance? Just for example our HBF had 29 and 22 and also 19 and 22 in the same games. Got anything yet to prove what Con said because that just proves jack.

[Austinnn]

You know what would make me happy Con? If we pick up a muscly young kid from the country.

Err... I really got an awful visual of two blokes cruising around in a car with the windows down after this comment.

[Con Gorozidis]

You know what would make me happy Con? If we pick up a muscly young kid from the country.

Err... I really got an awful visual of two blokes cruising around in a car with the windows down after this comment.

Gold!
We already have one of those anyway - his name is Luke Dunstan

[saint-stu]

I think a few of your are mixing up 2009 with 2010. We may have played in Grand Finals both years, but there was a significant difference between the two years.

Yes we used the zone defence both years, but the real stand out in 2009 was the pressure and tackling. We would often get 80 tackles per game. In fact, didn't we get 100 tackles against the Hawks in Tassie? One thing that I clearly remember seeing week in week out was watching the opposition panick and turn over the ball. Another example that springs to mind is the Adelaide game. They had one 8 games in a row and we smashed them with our pressure.

And you're also forgetting a certain small forward who had one VERY good year for us but not much else. Mini. He's tackling in 2009 was fantastic. And he kicked quite a few goals that year too.

[plugger66]

I think a few of your are mixing up 2009 with 2010. We may have played in Grand Finals both years, but there was a significant difference between the two years.

Yes we used the zone defence both years, but the real stand out in 2009 was the pressure and tackling. We would often get 80 tackles per game. In fact, didn't we get 100 tackles against the Hawks in Tassie? One thing that I clearly remember seeing week in week out was watching the opposition panick and turn over the ball. Another example that springs to mind is the Adelaide game. They had one 8 games in a row and we smashed them with our pressure.

And you're also forgetting a certain small forward who had one VERY good year for us but not much else. Mini. He's tackling in 2009 was fantastic. And he kicked quite a few goals that year too.

Exactly and that is why I only mentioned 2009.

[saint-stu]

Just looked up the stats. Schneiderman and Mini were our 5th and 6th best tacklers in 2009 with 114 and 112 tackles (4.7 / game). They dropped off a bit in 2010 with 86 and 104.

[Con Gorozidis]

Just looked up the stats. Schneiderman and Mini were our 5th and 6th best tacklers in 2009 with 114 and 112 tackles (4.7 / game). They dropped off a bit in 2010 with 86 and 104.

Schneiderman and mini.
Dear god.

[The Fireman]

we are in the box seat, we have nothing to lose so we must play it hard at the table. We need to build a youthful talented team across the board that will all peak together...no players with only 5yrs or less left in them.

we may be in the box seat next year aswell

[Ghost Like]

we are in the box seat, we have nothing to lose so we must play it hard at the table. We need to build a youthful talented team across the board that will all peak together...no players with only 5yrs or less left in them.

we may be in the box seat next year aswell

Agree with the sentiment and attitude Fireman. Only I'd say we have a lot to lose, pick 1, which is why a club must pay premium for it. Pick quality not quantity, Melbourne lost years with failed / poor top draft picks.

[dragit]

2010 Round 6 v Bulldogs.
Final Scores 46-49.
Saints victory.
J Harbrow 36 Disposals and 2 Brownlow votes.

So thats a very low scoring game. Classic Lyon shut down. Saints victory. But still a half back was able to run riot.

Heath Shaw touched us up bigtime in GF 1 and 2. How do you think we got smashed in GF2? Or doesnt that one count?

Roo, Schneider, Eddy, Milne, Kosi are not renown for fwd pressure by anyone in the known universe. It doesnt mean Roo and Milne arent awesome players. They just werent that crash hot at fwd pressure. This is a known known. Only the most one-eyed rose tinted Saints would argue it. I don't why you'd even waste time denying it. To protect some weird myth about a' trade-mark' that no-one cares about anymore.

I think you should go back and watch some of the matches from 2009, particularly the first half of the year... The forward pressure was just immense, not sure where you could get the stats for tackles inside 50 & goals from turnovers, but I'm tipping we would have been miles ahead of the comp.
Our pressure was huge all over the ground.. I know you love to discredit Lyon, but let's not re-write history... It's getting pathetic.

http://www.news.com.au/national/james-h ... 5753543596
http://www.theage.com.au/afl/afl-news/s ... -j80r.html
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-sp ... -edlp.html

[Con Gorozidis]

Hardly want to 'discredit' him. Just adequately credit him.
As it stands 8 years. 8 lists. 0 flags.
Inherited finals sides.
Not a great
Not a genius
Not even the top 5 of his era.

And Milne or Schneider would not panic anyone. Maybe people might fear that Schneider might eat them. Back then we clearly applied a lot of all over presssure. But good and fast half backs still did damage to us because you were 100% sure schneider or milne couldnt run you down from behind. We were a good side but not good enough.

[saintsRrising]

we are in the box seat, we have nothing to lose so we must play it hard at the table. We need to build a youthful talented team across the board that will all peak together...no players with only 5yrs or less left in them.

we may be in the box seat next year aswell

If we are in the "box seat"...it is probably the version that is about to be put 6 feet under.

There seems to be a sentiment by some on this forum that we have a "lay down misere". We are far from it.

We are not in the box seat for the very clear reason that with the majority of players that we are not currently a team that they want to go to. Draft picks aside as they fortunately have no choice in it. So they either will not come to us, or we will have to pay overs in cash to get them. And do not underestimate the lure of playing finals has, and we cannot offer that to any trade this year.

Yes we have No 1 pick this year, and will probably have an early pick next year. But we are a long, long, long way back at present.

We have also now probably run out of tradable players.

Can we do another "Ben" trade this year? We can only hope.

We are not in any "boxseat" and are relying on Pelchen to be at his crafty best to try and leverage additional value out of any trades. A "wing and a payer" would be a more apt saying for us at present.

[The Fireman]

we are in the box seat, we have nothing to lose so we must play it hard at the table. We need to build a youthful talented team across the board that will all peak together...no players with only 5yrs or less left in them.

we may be in the box seat next year aswell

If we are in the "box seat"...it is probably the version that is about to be put 6 feet under.

There seems to be a sentiment by some on this forum that we have a "lay down misere". We are far from it.

We are not in the box seat for the very clear reason that with the majority of players that we are not currently a team that they want to go to. Draft picks aside as they fortunately have no choice in it. So they either will not come to us, or we will have to pay overs in cash to get them. And do not underestimate the lure of playing finals has, and we cannot offer that to any trade this year.

Yes we have No 1 pick this year, and will probably have an early pick next year. But we are a long, long, long way back at present.

We have also now probably run out of tradable players.

Can we do another "Ben" trade this year? We can only hope.

We are not in any "boxseat" and are relying on Pelchen to be at his crafty best to try and leverage additional value out of any trades. A "wing and a payer" would be a more apt saying for us at present.

box seat in the respect that we have something that everyone wants and we can play hardball as we have very little to lose, we already have some talent and room in the cap so it's not so much about where players want to go it's how it can help there pocket and where they are told to go... so yep...i see this as a positive situation. No way did I intimate that everything is a lay down misere

please point out who you believe think everything is a lay down misere

[saintsRrising]

so it's not so much about where players want to go it's how it can help there pocket and where they are told to go.

You are kidding yourself that players will go where they are told to go.

We did ok with Ben, but he is the exception rather than the rule...and in his case where he was told to go was last years premiers and the move was likely to have him playing in Grand Finals, whereas staying was going to have him playing second fiddle to Hickey.

To get a genuine star to join us, we would have to pay them over the odds.

I think it more likely to say swap pick 1 for say:

* the suns first two picks
* GWS pick 4 and a good player (with many rating 4 not much different than 1, that arguably gains an extra good player at little cost).

than say for Cameron.

Clubs may be eyeing off our No 1 pick. But young superstars are not eyeing off the Saints.

[saintsRrising]

please point out who you believe think everything is a lay down misere

I did not say "everything"...

However there have been completely unrealistic and over the top imbalanced trades like these suggested:

pick one for hannebery and mitchell

pick one for dangerfield and adelaides first.

Nothing less, or we just keep pick one

[plugger66]

Hardly want to 'discredit' him. Just adequately credit him.
As it stands 8 years. 8 lists. 0 flags.
Inherited finals sides.
Not a great
Not a genius
Not even the top 5 of his era.

And Milne or Schneider would not panic anyone. Maybe people might fear that Schneider might eat them. Back then we clearly applied a lot of all over presssure. But good and fast half backs still did damage to us because you were 100% sure schneider or milne couldnt run you down from behind. We were a good side but not good enough.

I wasn't even saying your comment was wrong because RL was coaching, I was saying it was wrong because it was clearly wrong. Saint Stu proves Mini and Schneider had the 4th and 5th most tackles that year and now its running down from behind. Con you have giving nothing but names to prove your statement correct. Just concede that statement was wrong for the 2009 season. I do like those stats on RL however it has nothing to do with that silly statement.

[The Fireman]

so it's not so much about where players want to go it's how it can help there pocket and where they are told to go.

You are kidding yourself that players will go where they are told to go.

.

How am I kidding myself?

[matrix]

yeah how are you doing that?

are you laughing at your own jokes again firey?
we've been thru this before
cut it out
it aint funny



box seat
pick one
everyone wants it
we have it
how on earth is that not the box seat in the draft??

[Bunk_Moreland]

please point out who you believe think everything is a lay down misere

I did not say "everything"...

However there have been completely unrealistic and over the top imbalanced trades like these suggested:

pick one for hannebery and mitchell

pick one for dangerfield and adelaides first.

Nothing less, or we just keep pick one

Could give a toss what you say SrR.

For a start that was posted for effect.

Secondly Fireman is deadest correct, we have pick #1.

it is not objective if a club desires it and the player they believe will fulfill their list.

#1 was traded fourteen years ago to Hawthorn for Croad and two other dps.

They got Hodge and Mitchell and eventually got Croad back.

Freo were massive losers. Imagine Hodge in their team in GF2013 instead of Hawthorns

#1 has the value GWS places on it. You think a player like Jaksch (outside the GWS 220 or JOR (a injury plagued nothing ATM) will get them over the line?

Maybe just maybe if we got those two and #4 and we picked up McCartin, it wouldn't be too bad. Three players for the price of one.

But unless that type of deal is done we should keep #1 and take Petracca.

Ball is firmly in GWS's court.

[The Redeemer]

I am not quoting all of the above however Harbrow ended up getting a shitload of the ball in that Dogs Saints low-scorer due to our pressure and positioning inside 60. Therefore the Dogs chipped it around and then botched it causing a turn-over.

36 possessions in that game especially does not mean too much.

[dragit]

I am not quoting all of the above however Harbrow ended up getting a shitload of the ball in that Dogs Saints low-scorer due to our pressure and positioning inside 60. Therefore the Dogs chipped it around and then botched it causing a turn-over.

36 possessions in that game especially does not mean too much.

Bingo.

Anyone that suggests a player is "tearing us a new one" when his losing side can only manage 6 goals for the match, is struggling with the basics of the game.