List criticisms

[Killa]

There are those on this Forum critical of our List.

I would break the List into sectors

OLDER
Hill (Class)
Wood (Evolving to good)
Crouch (Good)
Jones (Ability to be good. Injuries curtailing)
Webster (Servicable)
Ross (Honest but limited)
Membrey (Ability to be servicable. Injury curtailing)
Campbell (Specific insurance)

APPROACHING PRIME
Wilkie (Good)
Howard (Performs the function))
Sinclair (Class)
Steele (Ability to be class. Injury curtailing)
Marshall (Class)
Butler (Performs the function)
Billings (Ability to be class. Injury curtailing)
Hayes (Time will tell)
McKenzie (??? Injuries curtailing)

FUTURE STILL TO BE HAD (POTENTIAL)
Coffield (Class)
Battle (Good)
Higgins (Good)
King (Class)
Gresham (Class)
Clark (Class)
Byrnes (Evolving to good)
Sharman (Evolving to ???)
Stocker (Receiving opportunity ???)
Paton (Needs to establish ???)
Bytel (Needs to establish ???)

YOUTH SHOWING ABILITIES
Wanganeen-Milera (Potential class)
Phillipou (Potential class)
Cameniti (Receiving opportunity ???)
Owen (Potential class)
Windhager (Potential class)

RESERVE/DEVELOPMENT
Highmore (Reserve Limited)
Cordy (Reserve. Insurance)
Connolly (????)
Adams (Developing)
Allison (Curtailed by injury)
Heath (Developing)
Keeler (Developing)
Van Es (Developing)
Peris (Excitement)
McLennan (Developing)
Hotton (Developing)

And this is before you get to the obvious specifics being support for King, Howard and Marshall plus a genuine goal kicking mid who can also mark overhead

The Older line I will comment on later.

Our next line down has some potential - but probably not enough "names" with the ability to be Class given these players are above 100 games.

Future yet to be had also, probably, is a "name" or 2 short. I would prefer to identify 10, not 7.

The next line down is where the potential is - so 4 very young players showing their abilities already.

The next line down all Clubs have - so fingers crossed particularly in regards support for King, Howard and Marshall and whoever else.

The references I have referred to generally refer to the List, not the specifics.

To me, where we are deficient is the Older bracket - so apart from Hill then Crouch (both recruited) we lack what competing Clubs have in this bracket, which elsewhere particularly among competing Clubs includes the champions of the competition and players who impact on results.

[bobmurray]

Not a bad assessment there Killa.

If we only draft kids at year's end then we don't really get the immediate bump we need.
Big job coming up for the List Management Team.

[The Fireman]

Yeah good killa
I find it hard to see gresh as class though atm

A class mid and a ruck and away we go

[Otiman]

I think the end of year list assessment will be brutal.

Expect some good players to not be offered contracts, and some kids to be cut early.

There are plenty of players out of contract.

Oscar Adams, Ryan Byrnes, Jack Bytel, Tom Campbell, Hunter Clark, Nicholas Coffield, Leo Connolly, Jade Gresham, Thomas Highmore, Zak Jones, Daniel McKenzie, Angus McLennan, Jack Peris, Liam Stocker, Jimmy Webster, Mason Wood

[Vortex]

There are those on this Forum critical of our List.

I would break the List into sectors

OLDER
Hill (Class)
Wood (Evolving to good)
Crouch (Good)
Jones (Ability to be good. Injuries curtailing)
Webster (Servicable)
Ross (Honest but limited)
Membrey (Ability to be servicable. Injury curtailing)
Campbell (Specific insurance)

APPROACHING PRIME
Wilkie (Good)
Howard (Performs the function))
Sinclair (Class)
Steele (Ability to be class. Injury curtailing)
Marshall (Class)
Butler (Performs the function)
Billings (Ability to be class. Injury curtailing)
Hayes (Time will tell)
McKenzie (??? Injuries curtailing)

FUTURE STILL TO BE HAD (POTENTIAL)
Coffield (Class)
Battle (Good)
Higgins (Good)
King (Class)
Gresham (Class)
Clark (Class)
Byrnes (Evolving to good)
Sharman (Evolving to ???)
Stocker (Receiving opportunity ???)
Paton (Needs to establish ???)
Bytel (Needs to establish ???)

YOUTH SHOWING ABILITIES
Wanganeen-Milera (Potential class)
Phillipou (Potential class)
Cameniti (Receiving opportunity ???)
Owen (Potential class)
Windhager (Potential class)

RESERVE/DEVELOPMENT
Highmore (Reserve Limited)
Cordy (Reserve. Insurance)
Connolly (????)
Adams (Developing)
Allison (Curtailed by injury)
Heath (Developing)
Keeler (Developing)
Van Es (Developing)
Peris (Excitement)
McLennan (Developing)
Hotton (Developing)

And this is before you get to the obvious specifics being support for King, Howard and Marshall plus a genuine goal kicking mid who can also mark overhead

The Older line I will comment on later.

Our next line down has some potential - but probably not enough "names" with the ability to be Class given these players are above 100 games.

Future yet to be had also, probably, is a "name" or 2 short. I would prefer to identify 10, not 7.

The next line down is where the potential is - so 4 very young players showing their abilities already.

The next line down all Clubs have - so fingers crossed particularly in regards support for King, Howard and Marshall and whoever else.

The references I have referred to generally refer to the List, not the specifics.

To me, where we are deficient is the Older bracket - so apart from Hill then Crouch (both recruited) we lack what competing Clubs have in this bracket, which elsewhere particularly among competing Clubs includes the champions of the competition and players who impact on results.

Probably only about 6-8 on the list who could be capable of standing up in the final few minutes of a GF. The next few years of recruiting will be important and intriguing as the talent pool has never been thinner and Tasmania will almost make it impossible for the poor clubs to compete for recruits.

[Vortex]

Sorry gents and Yorkeys

[Vortex]

One again gents and (woman singular) ...my apologies if my mistake disrupted your life.

[Yorkeys]

Mercy.
Moderators compassion, please.
How about a repetitive filter, nonsense block.

[bobmurray]

Mercy.
Moderators compassion, please.
How about a repetitive filter, nonsense block.

How about the poster learns how to delete his duplicates when he sees his stuff up, it's easily done.

[Scollop]

Mercy.
Moderators compassion, please.
How about a repetitive filter, nonsense block.

How about the poster learns how to delete his duplicates when he sees his stuff up, it's easily done.

I think Yorkeys is referring to the repetition of exactly the same wording and exactly the same theme in multiple threads.

I've read this 6 times in other threads today;

only about 6-8 on the list who could be capable of standing up in the final few minutes of a GF.

That's more annoying, in my opinion, than the duplicate posts

[Vortex]

Mercy.
Moderators compassion, please.
How about a repetitive filter, nonsense block.

How about the poster learns how to delete his duplicates when he sees his stuff up, it's easily done.

I think Yorkeys is referring to the repetition of exactly the same wording and exactly the same theme in multiple threads.

I've read this 6 times in other threads today;

only about 6-8 on the list who could be capable of standing up in the final few minutes of a GF.

That's more annoying, in my opinion, than the duplicate posts

I’m as frustrated as any supporter but let’s keep it real, we are nowhere near the lists of the current top 3 and absolute genuine contenders. At least three years away if Lyon has a magic trick for recruiting that no other coach has had our club in a very long time.

[Scollop]

Sadly...I agree with you. The teams who have been strong in the last 4-5 years have not rocketed up the ladder. It's a slow build that usually involves some finals experience and heartache.

Melbourne got a taste in 2018 and the stars aligned for them 3 years later. They have a powerhouse list and consistently finished top 4

Brisbane have been in 3 of the last 4 prelim finals. They were there last year and again in 2019 and 2020.

Port Adelaide got to a prelim final in 2020 and haven't been able to advance up until now. They look good this year

Geelong were in Elimination finals in 2017 and 2018. They got to a prelim in 2019, then lost a Grand Final in 2020 before winning it last year.

Collingwood lost a prelim in 2017. Lost a Grand Final in 2018 and again were prelim finalists last year.

[Life Long Saint]

Probably only about 6-8 on the list who could be capable of standing up in the final few minutes of a GF.

Two things struck me about that statement.
1. We won't have that problem for some time, so it's a moot point.
2. With the exception of maybe 3 or 4 teams at best, most teams would be in the same boat. Collingwood? Port? Not sure the other contenders would have more than eight players that would do that. Maybe Melbourne?

[The Fireman]

Mercy.
Moderators compassion, please.
How about a repetitive filter, nonsense block.

How about the poster learns how to delete his duplicates when he sees his stuff up, it's easily done.

I think Yorkeys is referring to the repetition of exactly the same wording and exactly the same theme in multiple threads.

I've read this 6 times in other threads today;

only about 6-8 on the list who could be capable of standing up in the final few minutes of a GF.

That's more annoying, in my opinion, than the duplicate posts

totally agree with this, but hey this forum has posters who feel the need to impress , using the broken record approach is a part of their toolbox.
Annoying ? of course, they want a rise.
anyways for those who have faith in this team...go saints

[Sanctorum]

A reasonable list analysis by Killa, this obviously also alludes to a separate post about St Kilda's appalling record in developing the young blood drafted over the past 10 years or so.

When Ross Lyon was brought back to the club last October there was considerable criticism that he failed to promote youth into his teams in his previous career. If that's correct then obviously it is no longer the case today because the team to play the Suns tomorrow has plenty of youngsters incuding debutant Jack Peris.

I agree that the list managers will be making plenty of changes post season with a continued emphasis on youth plus at least two A graders from other teams, maybe more.

In 2007 I vividly recall attending a pre-season training session at Moorabbin and Lyon coming over to the fence to tell the few of us watching how excited he was to have brought Michael Gardiner and Steven King in as ruckmen. Maybe he will seek to add a quality tap ruckman in from outside in 2024.

[Vortex]

Probably only about 6-8 on the list who could be capable of standing up in the final few minutes of a GF.

Two things struck me about that statement.
1. We won't have that problem for some time, so it's a moot point.
2. With the exception of maybe 3 or 4 teams at best, most teams would be in the same boat. Collingwood? Port? Not sure the other contenders would have more than eight players that would do that. Maybe Melbourne?

Mentioned this in another thread but apples here and that is the comments by David Parkin on SEN yesterday where he stated what most pundits in the industry know very well and that is you need a minimum of 25 quality GF types to be standing in the final minutes of GF.

So agree probably only 3, arguably 4 teams (if Melbourne get their act together) that have the required depth to compete for the silverware.

It’s not a mute point because this is why we sacked another coach, however what we won’t know until the sample size is much greater, possibly the 4th year of Lyons contract, this is when we will know if we are getting close to the required depth on the list and therein lays the intersecting space with regards to what Lyons magic trick is that no matter they coach at our club has possessed and that to attract said depth of talent. Our club makes that assignment the hardest in the industry. Last time we were able to we had to tank for a few years and also receive a bit of luck thanks to Carlton.

Melbourne are the 4th team I say is areably the 4th team and another club that has to seriously tank before the AFL stepped in and gave them a leg up.

[Life Long Saint]

Probably only about 6-8 on the list who could be capable of standing up in the final few minutes of a GF.

Two things struck me about that statement.
1. We won't have that problem for some time, so it's a moot point.
2. With the exception of maybe 3 or 4 teams at best, most teams would be in the same boat. Collingwood? Port? Not sure the other contenders would have more than eight players that would do that. Maybe Melbourne?

Mentioned this in another thread but apples here and that is the comments by David Parkin on SEN yesterday where he stated what most pundits in the industry know very well and that is you need a minimum of 25 quality GF types to be standing in the final minutes of GF.

So agree probably only 3, arguably 4 teams (if Melbourne get their act together) that have the required depth to compete for the silverware.

It’s not a mute point because this is why we sacked another coach, however what we won’t know until the sample size is much greater, possibly the 4th year of Lyons contract, this is when we will know if we are getting close to the required depth on the list and therein lays the intersecting space with regards to what Lyons magic trick is that no matter they coach at our club has possessed and that to attract said depth of talent. Our club makes that assignment the hardest in the industry. Last time we were able to we had to tank for a few years and also receive a bit of luck thanks to Carlton.

Melbourne are the 4th team I say is areably the 4th team and another club that has to seriously tank before the AFL stepped in and gave them a leg up.

I'd say the responsibility to develop the list to the point you mention is shared between the list manager, player development manager, fitness staff, and coaching staff.
If we are looking for the coach to deliver a "magic trick", then we are eternally doomed.

[The Fireman]

Probably only about 6-8 on the list who could be capable of standing up in the final few minutes of a GF.

Two things struck me about that statement.
1. We won't have that problem for some time, so it's a moot point.
2. With the exception of maybe 3 or 4 teams at best, most teams would be in the same boat. Collingwood? Port? Not sure the other contenders would have more than eight players that would do that. Maybe Melbourne?

Mentioned this in another thread but apples here and that is the comments by David Parkin on SEN yesterday where he stated what most pundits in the industry know very well and that is you need a minimum of 25 quality GF types to be standing in the final minutes of GF.

So agree probably only 3, arguably 4 teams (if Melbourne get their act together) that have the required depth to compete for the silverware.

It’s not a mute point because this is why we sacked another coach, however what we won’t know until the sample size is much greater, possibly the 4th year of Lyons contract, this is when we will know if we are getting close to the required depth on the list and therein lays the intersecting space with regards to what Lyons magic trick is that no matter they coach at our club has possessed and that to attract said depth of talent. Our club makes that assignment the hardest in the industry. Last time we were able to we had to tank for a few years and also receive a bit of luck thanks to Carlton.

Melbourne are the 4th team I say is areably the 4th team and another club that has to seriously tank before the AFL stepped in and gave them a leg up.

I'd say the responsibility to develop the list to the point you mention is shared between the list manager, player development manager, fitness staff, and coaching staff.
If we are looking for the coach to deliver a "magic trick", then we are eternally doomed.

I have enough sample size to believe we employed a coach and a good one, not a magician. the ability to "attract" players is also overated..in this intersecting space money and draft pick positioning determines it.
RTB is the right man for the job in selecting what we will need in seasons coming and as I have said before we are short an elite mid and ruckman of being a bonafide contender. Taking into account the expected improvements of our young talent pool.

[Vortex]

Probably only about 6-8 on the list who could be capable of standing up in the final few minutes of a GF.

Two things struck me about that statement.
1. We won't have that problem for some time, so it's a moot point.
2. With the exception of maybe 3 or 4 teams at best, most teams would be in the same boat. Collingwood? Port? Not sure the other contenders would have more than eight players that would do that. Maybe Melbourne?

Mentioned this in another thread but apples here and that is the comments by David Parkin on SEN yesterday where he stated what most pundits in the industry know very well and that is you need a minimum of 25 quality GF types to be standing in the final minutes of GF.

So agree probably only 3, arguably 4 teams (if Melbourne get their act together) that have the required depth to compete for the silverware.

It’s not a mute point because this is why we sacked another coach, however what we won’t know until the sample size is much greater, possibly the 4th year of Lyons contract, this is when we will know if we are getting close to the required depth on the list and therein lays the intersecting space with regards to what Lyons magic trick is that no matter they coach at our club has possessed and that to attract said depth of talent. Our club makes that assignment the hardest in the industry. Last time we were able to we had to tank for a few years and also receive a bit of luck thanks to Carlton.

Melbourne are the 4th team I say is areably the 4th team and another club that has to seriously tank before the AFL stepped in and gave them a leg up.

I'd say the responsibility to develop the list to the point you mention is shared between the list manager, player development manager, fitness staff, and coaching staff.
If we are looking for the coach to deliver a "magic trick", then we are eternally doomed.

Yeah I get what you are saying but why do we sack coaches at a high rate if all those other departs have been delivering lists capable of contending for silverware, taking your point to its logical conclusion assumes our list is GF ready and all that is needed is a coach. Ross is the 4th Pillar and only answerable to Bassett, this current regime is a two man team.

[Yorkeys]

"Yeah I get what you are saying but why do we sack coaches at a high rate if all those other departs have been delivering lists capable of contending for silverware, taking your point to its logical conclusion assumes our list is GF ready and all that is needed is a coach. Ross is the 4th Pillar and only answerable to Bassett, this current regime is a two man team."

Anyone speak Vortex? What the heck does that w salad mean. Is it just randomised cliches as a p/take?

[The Fireman]

"Yeah I get what you are saying but why do we sack coaches at a high rate if all those other departs have been delivering lists capable of contending for silverware, taking your point to its logical conclusion assumes our list is GF ready and all that is needed is a coach. Ross is the 4th Pillar and only answerable to Bassett, this current regime is a two man team."

Anyone speak Vortex? What the heck does that w salad mean. Is it just randomised cliches as a p/take?

"w salad"

[Saint2]

I think those who haven't got their bodies right, and haven't played consistent periods of senior footy for a long period, will be looked at very closely- there's a lot of money and ability sitting in the stands, and that's not good for a club in our situation. We were brutal with the coaching process, and I expect the same will apply to the list at the end of the season.

[Vortex]

I think those who haven't got their bodies right, and haven't played consistent periods of senior footy for a long period, will be looked at very closely- there's a lot of money and ability sitting in the stands, and that's not good for a club in our situation. We were brutal with the coaching process, and I expect the same will apply to the list at the end of the season.

My sentiments exactly.

The 2 pillars need to be consistent and show the brutal coup d'état was not just about deflection and saving Bassets arse.

Giving Byrnes more than a year has me worried we are going reward b and c graders that work hard but have reached their ceiling.

[Life Long Saint]

Brutality may not be possible...
Out of contract players are:
Daniel McKenzie (Restricted Free Agent)
Hunter Clark
Jack Bytel
Jack Peris
Jade Gresham (Restricted Free Agent)
Jimmy Webster (Unrestricted Free Agent)
Leo Connolly
Liam Stocker
Mason Wood
Nicholas Coffield
Oscar Adams
Ryan Byrnes
Tom Campbell
Tom Highmore
Zak Jones

You'd have to think that McKenzie, Clark, Peris, Webster, Stocker, Wood, Coffield, Byrnes, Peris, and Jones are re-signed.
Gresham is a curious one. He's one of the few players that are effective at centre clearances. It will be up to him whether he goes or stays. I doubt we'd push him out the door.

Connolly, Adams, Campbell, and Highmore would be nervous.

All the other players are contracted. So, unless a trade offer comes that includes taking on their remaining contract, I suspect we will be hanging on to them.

[Killa]

The one question I have for some responding to my analysis of the List is, if we attend such a clean out, who replaces them?

So, given the wretched run say Coffield has endured, do we jettison him on the basis of those injuries and replace him by utilising Pick 115 in the Draft?

Or a delisted player at another Club?

The Club invests in talent so the first question is does the player in question have talent and if the answer is “Yes” then you back them in - including by supporting them thru periods when injury interrupts

Talent is harnessed in many ways

Adams for example is a 198cm (still light) defender continuing his education and development from the SANFL Under 18 Competition (from which he was Drafted, missing most of his first season at St Kilda due to injury and now getting some continuity into his football. The Melbourne forward, recruited from WB and with AFL experience, kicked 3 in the first quarter before Adams was swung into him, curtailing his influence)

Adams is gaining experience and making progress

So do you jettison him because, at 19 years of age in his second season, he is not tearing it down and a Star at AFL level?

And if you de-list him, who do you replace him with?

Pick 210 in the Draft?

Who we de-list will come down to Draft Picks with currency, the need to use Draft Picks then any movement at the Trade table which is on offer (and where the target player is a need - such as the move for De Goey)

We are not in a position where we trade our first round Draft Pick because that Draft Pick will deliver talent