Poor Drafting since 2003

[chook23]

2000, 2001 and 2002..........a lot of no brainer picks

2003-2007 very poor

We are now suffering in 2008

for poor drafting under GT 2003. 2004 2005 and to a lesser extent at this stage under lyon only because jury still out on some in particulatr Armitage and McEvoy

KB and Denham have been duscussing this with callers on SEN

I agree

Raph poor 1st pick
Mini poor first pick
Watts poor pick..exchange of picks
Brooks poor pick exchange f picks etc etc
Ackland/Mcgough/Sweeny/Gwilt

introduction of new players well below average over last 3-4 years.

[rodgerfox]

I think Geelong have better players than Collingwood. They have a better list with more pace, more experience, and more depth.

I think they have drafted better too.


Collingwood beat them last week.


You can 22 of the best players in the league, but you won't win if you're not coached well (not tactics - but being well drilled and motivated).

It is just such a boring copout about us not having the cattle. FFS, we had to listen to years of 'we have the best list in the comp' (as recently as 2006-2007 too I might add) and now we're hearing we don't have list good enough for the top 8 even!!

[chook23]

we may have had a list.....2004......the year I think that was our biggest chance.....

bbut poor management and injuries ate into that list.......

the media and many supporters kept on "with the best list crap" but IMHO it was slowly crumbling to the stage it is now.

Our list now compared to the side of 2004 is vastly different......

replaced by poorer players...

[saintsRrising]

http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/sport/ ... 42,00.html

Frawley: Recycling hurts Saints
Jon Ralph | May 27, 2008 12:00am

FORMER Richmond coach Danny Frawley says St Kilda has made the same costly list management mistake he did when he over-rated his side in 2001. St Kilda this year topped up its list with four recycled players in a bid for its second premiership.

Yet after nine rounds the Saints are struggling and were this week described by coach Ross Lyon as mentally and physically soft.

Former St Kilda star Frawley believes some highly paid players have become complacent, but said the main issue is the list quality. He thinks it's time to introduce a wave of kids, and says lack of quality recruiting in past seasons is mortally wounding his old club.

After a preliminary final appearance in 2001, the Tigers traded for Greg Stafford, Paul Hudson and Adam Houlihan, and missed the riches of the 2001 national draft.

"They tried to win (the flag) and you can't blame them for that," Frawley said.

"When you keep propping it up you have to play these guys. It's been coming for three or four years.

"You can get caught in a difficult spot as a coach. We did it in 2001 when we finished third. It was the super-draft, and we didn't really compete in that at all, and it leaves you vulnerable. It is a little bit where the Saints are as well."

Frawley believes list management is now as important as quality coaching.

"The way Hawthorn has a structured list, it is quite remarkable. They have had a steadfast process.

"The fact is they (Saints) have had salary cap pressures for five or six years.

"There is a bit of that fat-belly syndrome with a few of the players. Now Ross is saying, 'We are all getting our fair whack but we are under-performing'."

Just as Brisbane has rallied after a mini-rebuild, Frawley believes St Kilda can again surge with prudent recruiting.

"They have still got a window. They look slow, but only have to inject 2-3 players. Throw in a Cyril Rioli and a Sharrod Wellingham type and there is a bit of spark."

Frawley supported Lyon's public criticism of his players.

[desertsaint]

It's easy to be critical of draft picks after the event - but don't forget our highest pick since 2003 was no. 17 - mcQualter - not so good but look at other picks around him:
1 7 Jordan Lewis Geelong Falcons Hawthorn
1 8 John Meesen Geelong Falcons Adelaide
1 9 Jordan Russell West Adelaide Football Club Carlton
1 10 Chris Egan Murray Bushrangers Collingwood
1 11 Adam Thomson Sturt Football Club Port Adelaide
1 12 Danny Meyer Glenelg Football Club Richmond
1 13 Matthew Bate Eastern Ranges Melbourne
1 14 Angus Monfries Sturt Football Club Essendon
1 15 Lynden Dunn Calder Cannons Melbourne
1 16 Adam Pattison Northern Under 18s Richmond
1 17 Andrew McQualter Gippsland Power St. Kilda
1 18 Cameron Wood West Adelaide Football Club Brisbane Lions
1 19 Ryan Willits Northern Under 18s Port Adelaide
2 20 Dean Polo Gippsland Power Richmond

No decent picks for any team.

In 2003 yes we wasted a high pick (8) on ralph clarke, but again so did others:

P 3 Colin Sylvia Bendigo U18 Melbourne
1 4 Farren Ray Peel Thunder Football Club Bulldogs
1 5 Brock McLean Calder Cannons Melbourne
1 6 Kepler Bradley West Perth Football Club Essendon
1 7 Kane Tenace Murray Bushrangers Geelong
1 8 Raphael Clarke St. Mary's Football Club St. Kilda
1 9 David Trotter Calder Cannons Kangaroos
1 10 Ryley Dunn Murray Bushrangers Fremantle
1 11 Beau Waters West Adelaide Football Club West Coast
1 12 Ryan Murphy Gippsland U18 Fremantle
1 13 Brent Stanton Northern U18 Essendon
1 14 Fergus Watts Sandringham U18s Adelaide Crows
1 15 Troy Chaplin North Ballarat U18s Port Adelaide
1 16 Josh Willoughby Glenelg Football Club Sydney Swans
1 17 Billy Morrison Tasmania U18s Collingwood
1 18 Llane Spaanderman East Perth Brisbane Lions

And don't forget we managed to get Sam Fisher at no. 55
In criticising our draft during this period - 2003 onwards - i think we forget our luck in having high picks in good draft years. That's why the draft is there - poorer team get the wheat -others get the chaff!

Rather than focus on what we haven't got -lets focus on what we're doing with what we have!

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Meh, it's an easy answer. Looking at the options, there aren't a lot of guys who would have been better selections. However, the development of those players post draft is incredibly dissapointing - especially considering that both Mini and Raph looked like they were going to make it (personally, I've written off neither, but their contribution to date hasn't helped them). They've both been where Armo is now.

I wonder with the vibe of the Frawley article whether he's contemplating throwing his hat in the ring if the Saints coaching job becomes available. He's singing the tune management would want to hear, and he's a Saints man.

[saintsRrising]

Meh, it's an easy answer. Looking at the options, there aren't a lot of guys who would have been better selections. However, the development of those players post draft is incredibly dissapointing - especially considering that both Mini and Raph looked like they were going to make it (.

Yes you would have to say that for a long long time that the Saint's have sucked big time at developing talent.

There is also long list of Saints who have gone on to bigger and better careers at other clubs...

[chook23]

stand by OP

Don't forget we traded away first round draft picks

[BAM! (shhhh)]

stand by OP

Don't forget we traded away first round draft picks

The one that jumps out is Brooks, hindsight has it as a doozy of a bad trade. Watts is a bit of a mystery, we weren't exactly crying out for another key forward who was supposed to be on the cusp of playing AFL... but both result in players who might as well just be first rounders that didn't work out.

The hindsight thing is my question for those who criticise the drafting. For those who don't like the approach of taking players who have been on lists before, like Ackland, McGough etc. that's fair enough... but as far as the first rounders go:
- Most believed at the time we aquired Brooks that he was going to be a star.
- At the time we picked Raph, it was considered lucky he'd gotten through the top 5.
- McQualter was considered a very safe pick.
- Watts was thought to be a definate starter in the Crows the next year, and prior to breaking his ankle, did play for us in rd. 1.

So the question for the critics is, who knew? For it to be bad drafting, we shouldn't only find out in hindsight... to me, that kind of regular failure points to development. Club change of direction hasn't necessarily helped either... McQualter got handed tagging roles and looked awful in them, and this year he's apparently very good in the V playing a leadership midfield ballwinning role.

Quantity of youth and development of youth has curtailed the Saints ability to produce young players over the period, but I don't think pointing the finger at the recruiters specifically helps - I suspect any player without the skill to jump straight tot he AFL would have fared as badly.

[saintsRrising]

The hindsight thing .

1/ when you look back and examine someones total record yes you are using hindsight....and that will always occur. Hindsight or history allows you to assess someones performance.

2/ to use hidnsight to say that perfection should have occurred would un- reasonable. However in rating someone it is reasonable to compare their performance to others.



Now as to your question as to opinions at the time...

- Most believed at the time we aquired Brooks that he was going to be a star..

The price paid for him was too high...two picks for an untried player??? Admitedly he was taken in a very good year..but was taken at pick 15. our pick 6 should have been more than enough.

- At the time we picked Raph, it was considered lucky he'd gotten through the top 5..

Yes most Saints fans would have considered that. Howevera lot of sentment was at play by Saints fans...

Why did other clubs let him slip.

But anyway yes a fair enough pick.

- McQualter was considered a very safe pick..

A fair enough pick..I was hoping for Polo though...however asa whole are drafting seemed to lack players with footskills and pace.

- Watts was thought to be a definate starter in the Crows the next year, and prior to breaking his ankle, did play for us in rd. 1. .

Completely illogical pick for the Saints.
1/By then it was known that big slow forwards were limited in a game getting faster.
2/ Selecting him when we already had Roo, GTrain, Kosi and Brooks....when we had so many other ares of weakness is beyond belief.
3/ Round 1 selection. There was disbelief at the time at the slowness of the team that was selected for the big WA ground. Watt's selection only made it worse.






However it is not just those picks. Look at all the picks including the rookie picks.

If you look at the total drafting/trading results from that period the club underpeformed.

What counts is results....and if you want to be the best club in the competition, or near it.....you will not get their at being poor at choosing cattle.

...and as you have mentioned...you also need to be good at developing whatever cattle you do recruit.

[rodgerfox]

Completely illogical pick for the Saints.
1/By then it was known that big slow forwards were limited in a game getting faster.
2/ Selecting him when we already had Roo, GTrain, Kosi and Brooks....when we had so many other ares of weakness is beyond belief.
3/ Round 1 selection. There was disbelief at the time at the slowness of the team that was selected for the big WA ground. Watt's selection only made it worse.

Watts wasn't consider to be a big slow forward. And certainly wasn't selected to play that role.

He was considered to be "courageous" and "provided forward line pressure". He was recovering from injury when we got him, so he may have appeared slow. By the time he got fit - he broke his leg and the rest is history.

In hindsight, if he didn't get hurt, that type of player would be completely logical right now.

[meher baba]

stand by OP

Don't forget we traded away first round draft picks

Sorry, not from 2003 onwards we didn't. You really don't know what you are talking about do you?

[Eastern]

All this tells us is that drafting is NOT an exact science. It's getting better but it is NOT EXACT. Those clubs who have the edge in drafting are the clubs with the most resources in their recruiting departments and even they occasionally get it wrong !!

[saintsRrising]

Completely illogical pick for the Saints.
1/By then it was known that big slow forwards were limited in a game getting faster.
2/ Selecting him when we already had Roo, GTrain, Kosi and Brooks....when we had so many other ares of weakness is beyond belief.
3/ Round 1 selection. There was disbelief at the time at the slowness of the team that was selected for the big WA ground. Watt's selection only made it worse.

Watts wasn't consider to be a big slow forward. And certainly wasn't selected to play that role.

He was considered to be "courageous" and "provided forward line pressure". He was recovering from injury when we got him, so he may have appeared slow. By the time he got fit - he broke his leg and the rest is history.

In hindsight, if he didn't get hurt, that type of player would be completely logical right now.

I am talking about Fergus Watts who was acknowledeged to be very good contested mark but who was slow. Was hoped to become a key position marking forward.

In the main all the write ups on him was to play as a key forward.

At 197ish cm he was certainly big.

The Crows had a sprint coach work with him on this weakness, but he was still slow.


Forward pressure?? Who said that Fergus was good at exerting forward pressure???? I certainly do not recall reports of him running down players.

The most I recall being said about him in this regard is that he could split packs in marking contests to provide opportunities for crumbers...but that is hardly foward pressure.


At the time I could understand for example if the Dogs chased him...but it was ridiculous for the Saints to have secured him UNLESS they offloaded some of our other key forwards.

[aussiejones]

We are so critical because the team is not playing well.

Go back to the pre season cup ... we wernt too un happy.

What exactly we are faced with now ?

Some out of form players ?

No Gehrig , Maguire and so far no Baker.

What do we need ? A bit more in an under , Goal kicking instead of chippolotto .a few automatic picks dropper and young players given game time .

[saintsRrising]

stand by OP

Don't forget we traded away first round draft picks

Sorry, not from 2003 onwards we didn't. You really don't know what you are talking about do you?

You may wish to check the records again MB.

2005 St Kilda traded away it's first round draft pick.

[chook23]

stand by OP

Don't forget we traded away first round draft picks

Sorry, not from 2003 onwards we didn't. You really don't know what you are talking about do you?

Check the history

Who really does not know what they are talking about.

[d roit]

[quote="desertsaint"]It's easy to be critical of draft picks after the event - but don't forget our highest pick since 2003 was no. 17 - mcQualter - not so good but look at other picks around him:
1 7 Jordan Lewis Geelong Falcons Hawthorn
1 8 John Meesen Geelong Falcons Adelaide
1 9 Jordan Russell West Adelaide Football Club Carlton
1 10 Chris Egan Murray Bushrangers Collingwood
1 11 Adam Thomson Sturt Football Club Port Adelaide
1 12 Danny Meyer Glenelg Football Club Richmond
1 13 Matthew Bate Eastern Ranges Melbourne
1 14 Angus Monfries Sturt Football Club Essendon
1 15 Lynden Dunn Calder Cannons Melbourne
1 16 Adam Pattison Northern Under 18s Richmond
1 17 Andrew McQualter Gippsland Power St. Kilda
1 18 Cameron Wood West Adelaide Football Club Brisbane Lions
1 19 Ryan Willits Northern Under 18s Port Adelaide
2 20 Dean Polo Gippsland Power Richmond

No decent picks for any team.
quote]

No decent picks???????

Why on Earth would a team who at the time had a plethora of slow midfielders and no decent ruckmen, pick up a player like McQualter, yet forgo an up and comer like Cam Wood.

He didnt get a chance at game time until traded from Brisbane to the Pies, but had we picked him he wouldve played most if not all games, accounting for possible injuries in between.

Instead we ended up with a player, who we end up delisting and the making a rookie. Yes, his form in Casey has been spectacular enough to warrant promotion, but really, is Mini going to be part of the future of this club?

I think not.

Pick 17 2004: Wasted crucial opportunity

[meher baba]

stand by OP

Don't forget we traded away first round draft picks

Sorry, not from 2003 onwards we didn't. You really don't know what you are talking about do you?

Check the history

Who really does not know what they are talking about.

Yep, you are right, I forgot that pick 17 was still in the first round. Sorry.

Still, I don't think 17 is exactly a prize pick, do you?

[my les foote]

We also received pick 8 as part of the Everitt deal and traded that on as part of the Brooks deal.

I think this became pick 6 due to Carlton being excluded and Port picked up Salopek.

[mad saint guy]

Forward pressure?? Who said that Fergus was good at exerting forward pressure???? I certainly do not recall reports of him running down players.

The most I recall being said about him in this regard is that he could split packs in marking contests to provide opportunities for crumbers...but that is hardly foward pressure.

Try reading any summary of him pre-2006. He considered a powerful tall forward who was outstanding in the air and fierce at ground level. Extremely hard at the ball and the man. That used to be considered forward pressure. Now it is aboriginal kids running down players from behind as they jog out of the 50.

[SainterX]

This conversation would not even have begun had we won in 04 or 05. Then the fact we had made poor recruiting choices would simply have been put down to us starting to rebuild as Brisbane and Port Power are doing.

I like to see these posts though, other teams with only 1 premiership seem to just accept it and go through the motions more often then not. This shows the pride we have in our Mighty Saints, and it's a great thing

[saintsRrising]

Forward pressure?? Who said that Fergus was good at exerting forward pressure???? I certainly do not recall reports of him running down players.

The most I recall being said about him in this regard is that he could split packs in marking contests to provide opportunities for crumbers...but that is hardly forward pressure.

Try reading any summary of him pre-2006. He considered a powerful tall forward who was outstanding in the air and fierce at ground level. Extremely hard at the ball and the man. That used to be considered forward pressure. Now it is aboriginal kids running down players from behind as they jog out of the 50.

MSD racist remarks like that belittle you and are not worthy of your normal standard of posting.

I am familiar with the write ups on Watts he was not recruited to the Saints to augment our forward pressure...as was defined by Hamill who was then with us.

At AFL level he was only ever going to be a big slow forward mainly reliant on his marking power for inclusion in the team.

If you think he would have been able to exert much forward pressure once the defenders had the ball you are dreaming.

[CURLY]

Drafting is a thing that is scrutinised weekly depending on how a team performs on the weekend. Lets look at Collingwood who are the flavour of the month since 1999. Theyve used there first round picks on R .Cole B . Morrison C Egan L Shackleton and B Nixon. They used pick 5 for D Roach swapped pick 4 for S McKee and pick 11 for Olerenshaw. Hardly master recruiting by any strech of the imagination. But while they ar einjury free and there best 18 has barely been scratched for the lasr two years it is overlooked. They have bought in two players here and there for one or two games raved about there kids then dumped them. Other than Penlebery Thomas who were top ten picks and the two father sons theyve hardly set the pinnacle of recruiting although they lead the AFL on money spent.

If we had the opportunity to have our best side up and running week in week out we could to play Sweeny here and there or Conners or who eva but we havnt been that fortunate.

[To the top]

The presentations of "dud" picks versus other picks by other clubs, and "dud" tradings is a useless exercise.

Simply, decisions are made.

And you move on.

The secret is assessing early (and that includes on the track because the coaching staff set directions), and then turning, again, and again, and again.

In regards Brooks (to cover the departure of Everitt and give us a 10 year ruckman) and Watts (as a CHF, which would have released Riewoldt from a position he is not really suited to because his strength is his work ethic and his leading - and his skills could see him playing in the mid-field and dominating), we never developed these players (or played them) in the positions they were recruited to fill.

It was not the decisions which were wrong.

It was what happended then.

Brooks and Watts were recruited (traded) for list structure purposes, and in terms of list structure, you do recruit only ruckmen and KPP's.

Mid-fielders and flankers are a different exercise.

It is easy to "pot", but everyone you draft is not going to "make it", obviously - but decisions are made.

My criticism of St Kilda is that it is too much of a "culture" club and the acid assessments of players, and the challenges to deliver in the positions they were drafted/traded to play in was not followed through on, so we have a list of the "Minis" and the "Fergs" and the "Bakes" and the "Milneys" (plus some others) whose continuing presence on our list is impeding us from finding their replacements.

And improving. Because it is all about getting better and better.

Frawley was right about needing as few as 3 players (given Maguire recovers), and to go further I reckon those players are a developing key defender doing an apprenticeship in a back pocket on 3rd talls, a skilled and damaging forward flanker with pace and an emerging "gun" midfielder, with pace.

And Armitage, McEvoy, Steven, Howard and Allen standing up and delivering.

Under that accross our list, we turn and we turn and we turn.

Until we find exactly what we want to improve our team structure and our competiveness against our opposition.