Kicking LOW scores

[iwantmeseats]

Im damn sick of it. Players aside, the lack of system has to be the worst of any of the clubs, by a country mile.

We will go absolutely NO WHERE while struggling to kick 10 goals a game. If you take the last 6 weeks and break it down the score quarter by quarter, it would make for terrifing reading.

RL can do whatever the hell he wants, but while we cant kick scores, were totally screwed. As an aside, its a total borefest to watch.

Over it.

[Shaggy]

I agree.

I put my money on the Doggies after round 6 each way. I think Eade has it right.

The highest scoring side each year has won the most premierships in the past 20 years.

The top 8 this year has generally been made of the top 8 scoring sides.

The only side not in the top 7 scoring sides in the past 20 years to win a premiership is the Swans

Both Roos and Malthouse (the most defensive coaches to win a premiership) now have their teams scoring relatively high.

RL is trying a business plan against the market and history.

In 18 months Voss, Hamill and Watts have gone, G-Train looks gone, Milne close to gone and Kosi close to a trade off.

Good luck to RL but I wish it wasn't with the team I barracked for.

[bobmurray]

We wont get far with 36 inside 50's but some experts think Ross has us playing that way because we dont have the cattle to be a serious contender.

[Teflon]

Good luck to RL but I wish it wasn't with the team I barracked for.

He is and will be better get used to it.

And not 1 mention in that "its all Ross's fault" post about our player development and recruiting efforts over the past 4 years.....wonder why?

[iwantmeseats]

Yes, but I judge RL on what he has got to work with. I dont give a rats about what happened previously. And my conclusion, is he has taken the club backwards at a furious rate.

You simply cant tell me that core group is not enough to at least be playing better than what we are. Not in the history of the AFL would so many class players all be out of form all together for so long. Roo, Kosi, Montagna etc etc..

Ok, we have problems with the under developed second tier of players from bad trading, but that DOES NOT effect the method and system you follow to get the damn ball delivered into the foward line. Thats ALL RL.

RL actually thinks he can win enough games to play finals by kicking 10-12 goals a game!!!!! And people think he is the right guy for us? Hell, with that attitude Im buggered how he got any gig in the system in the first place. He actually said this AND believes it!!

This attitude by RL only serves to create and grow a instant negative feel amongst the players.

Its nice and dandy to be accountable. But when the delivery is shocking to non existant into the foward line, and when it finally finds its way in there somehow and repeatedly gets shanked from 30mtrs out in fornt of goal, accountability can bite me.

FAR too much emphsais on defence, its all skew wiff! Wheres the balance?

Final point, its totally counter productive to natural footy instinct to play this way. Anyone who has played footy at any level knows this.

[bobmurray]

Until we change to our 4050th coach ,this is the way it will be

[Shaggy]

Good luck to RL but I wish it wasn't with the team I barracked for.

He is and will be better get used to it.

And not 1 mention in that "its all Ross's fault" post about our player development and recruiting efforts over the past 4 years.....wonder why?

Is that a threat?

Does not mean I agree with him. I already think he has destroyed the strength of our former list. He now needs to build his own.

I fundamentally disagree with how RL thinks we can win a premiership. And I have put forward 20 years of trends to support it .

The game has never changed as far as if you kick the highest score and get the most possessions your confidence soars.

The opposite happens when you focus negatively.

[Teflon]

Good luck to RL but I wish it wasn't with the team I barracked for.

He is and will be better get used to it.

And not 1 mention in that "its all Ross's fault" post about our player development and recruiting efforts over the past 4 years.....wonder why?

Is that a threat?

Does not mean I agree with him. I already think he has destroyed our strength.

I fundamentally disagree with how RL thinks we can win a premiership.

Its got nothing to do with recruitment which I don't think is the prime responsibility of the coach and development which I actually thought GT was very good at and RL is showing same.

Threat?

F@rk no thats a promise. Lyon will see out his tenure - at least another 1.5 - 2yrs so you better get used to it

GT was good at "development" turn it up - who'd he develop - Brooks? Mqualter? Gwilt? Al Murray? Mcgough? Rix? Ferguson? Raymond? Ackland? Knobel? Watts? - do tell me where the development among the lost picks for this lot we got from GT?

Lyon has already introduced more in the way of development this season than GT in the last 3 yr FFS.

And I dont buy the "coach was out of the country and had no input to drafting" rubbish - hes the senior coach.HE has an emormous say over the cattle we take as its his bollocks on the line.

As for your "fundamental"disagreement with RL approach to a flag - fair enough its your view and I agree right now we aint pretty. But its my view Lyon is trying to build some defensive strength into this side something that its been proven flags have been won around.

[Shaggy]

The highest scoring side each year has won the most premierships in the past 20 years.

The top 8 this year has generally been made of the top 8 scoring sides.

The only side not in the top 7 scoring sides in the past 20 years to win a premiership is the Swans

Both Roos and Malthouse (the most defensive coaches to win a premiership) now have their teams scoring relatively high.

RL is trying a business plan against the market and history.

In 18 months Voss, Hamill and Watts have gone, G-Train looks gone, Milne close to gone and Kosi close to a trade off.

Good luck to RL but I wish it wasn't with the team I barracked for.

He is and will be better get used to it.

And not 1 mention in that "its all Ross's fault" post about our player development and recruiting efforts over the past 4 years.....wonder why?

Is that a threat?

Does not mean I agree with him. I already think he has destroyed the strength of our former list. He now needs to build his own.

I fundamentally disagree with how RL thinks we can win a premiership. And I have put forward 20 years of trends to support it .

The game has never changed as far as if you kick the highest score and get the most possessions your confidence soars.

The opposite happens when you focus negatively.

Threat?

F@rk no thats a promise. Lyon will see out his tenure - at least another 1.5 - 2yrs so you better get used to it

GT was good at "development" turn it up - who'd he develop - Brooks? Mqualter? Gwilt? Al Murray? Mcgough? Rix? Ferguson? Raymond? Ackland? Knobel? Watts? - do tell me where the development among the lost picks for this lot we got from GT?

Lyon has already introduced more in the way of development this season than GT in the last 3 yr FFS.

And I dont buy the "coach was out of the country and had no input to drafting" rubbish - hes the senior coach.HE has an emormous say over the cattle we take as its his bollocks on the line.

As for your "fundamental"disagreement with RL approach to a flag - fair enough its your view and I agree right now we aint pretty. But its my view Lyon is trying to build some defensive strength into this side something that its been proven flags have been won around.

I support RL as coach until his contract is up. Doesn't mean I have to agree with him .

I would not call for him to go now as everyone deserves their chance and maybe he is right and I am wrong (even though others who love sackings may start frothing at their mouths to get rid of him if they felt the same as me ).

IMO negative football is not going to win us the premiership or good for the current core.

Maybe RL can be the exception like Paul Roos but I doubt it. Paul Roos is proving himself to be very flexible to meet the times.

We were not a running defensive list when RL joined and even when he turns the list into one we are not going to win the flag (IMO).

[Sainterone]

We are playing boring footy (and many, including me don't like it).

Our team seem to be quite poor at playing boring footy - is that good or bad?
Maybe the team should try something less boring - you never know, we might be more capable.

When you contrast Friday's game with the catters demolition of the weagles last night, there won't be very many who really think we can make the 8 AND play a real part in the finals.

I like to think that if you make the 8 - then you have a chance at the flag - this year we are one of a group chasing that last position - but if we do get to P8 at seasons end, it appears highly unlikely that we will go past week 1.

[matrix]

oh look same person arguing with the same people who have something - to say.
what a surprise.
if youre happy having 15 shots a game, u go right ahead and sing his praises.

wheres this lyon development then?
apparently he has done more in 1.5 than the previous did in 3....

whats that?....including not playing finals footy u say....
brilliant.......im behind him 100%
hopefully he gets us kicking 30 shots at the big sticks huh.
with all the forwards playing at the moment, we should be a shoe in against north to have 40 shots this week.

[bergsone]

Lets face it ,its terrible to watchand cant see us winning too many games with 8-10 goals per game,while being critical of our forward coach i am starting to think whats he got to work with,whenever we get the ball going forward there isnt anyone there to kick the bloody thing to anyway,please RL and co change this game plan

[rodgerfox]

To have Roo play a brilliant game, Bally and Harves getting 30 touches each, Gram provide run and kick a couple, plus several other 'big names' play very good games, yet only kick 64 points against Freo in Melbourne - is a concern to say the very least.

When your good players have good games, you should be fluent anf efficient and win well.

We don't.

Why?

Ross Lyon and his game plan/style.


It's appalling and we're going to have some very, very dark times if something isn't done about it.

[maverick]

Maybe we should write a few mor e letters to Lyon, I read in the HS thins week that because of letters from supporters we played a few kids this week....

Quality stuff

[Eastern]

Maybe we should write a few mor e letters to Lyon, I read in the HS thins week that because of letters from supporters we played a few kids this week....

Quality stuff

I can feel a lengthy letter heading Ross' way highlighting "Hitouts to Advantage". That is unless it is sent to the wrong address !!

[maverick]

Maybe we should write a few mor e letters to Lyon, I read in the HS thins week that because of letters from supporters we played a few kids this week....

Quality stuff

I can feel a lengthy letter heading Ross' way highlighting "Hitouts to Advantage". That is unless it is sent to the wrong address !!

[skeptic]

i appreciate that this wasn't a GT vs RL thread until a certain forumite turned it into one... but RE our player developments over the last 4 years (of GT's reign I'm assuming)

yes he had his fair share of misses but he also got career best form out of:
Hamil, Jones, Powell, Gehrig, Black, Guerra, Blake, Peckett, Voss, Thompson, Baker, Hudghton, Hayes, Baker, Maguire, Gram, Penny, Knobel and Milne.
Ackland and McQualter had their best seasons of footy ever under GT as well

Not to mention the development of Riewoldt, Dal, Monty, Ball, S. Fisher, Kosi, L. Fisher were all developing nicely although i guess the old "natural developemnt" line will come out with these guys


Say what you will about GT, when ppl said that we were flat track bullies, at the very least we put the lesser teams away. The only decent wins we've had this year have been against Melb and Essendon and we've basically fallen over the line against the rest.

The players are consistently kicking low scores and playing keepings off footy.

Carlton and Rich beat Port at Aami, we were never in the game

We waited until rd13 to play the kids

We continually rush players back from injury: Gilbert, Harvey, Maguire

Our selections are poor: Birss dropped!!! Schneider stayed in the team til rd12 despite 1 good game etc Fiora's bizarre call up, Maguire's and Gilbert coming straight into the team after injury

Our game plan appears to be rigid and inflexible... its taken 13 weeks for Roo to have a run on the wing, Kosi has not played back despite a shortage of backmen. Goddard and Chips being used more as KPPs, no obvious developing FB other than Gilbert who has been shown again and again and his performance has dropped as a result, with a host of other players not even being tried

We don't appear to have a clear plan going forward. Are we playing the kids!!?? Are we trying something new??? We did this week... but have shown a reluctance to all season


The only thing I am happy with with RL to this point is that he appears to be turning the list over. Hopefully he'll continue to play the kids as well as the C.Gardiners, Fergusons, Gwilts, McQualters, Jones' etc to ascertain who can play and who cannot

[st_Trav_ofWA]

kicking low scores !!! i dont give a toss aslong as our low score is higher then the opps low score !!!

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Personally, I'm pleased to be able to worry about the score we kick... for the first time in a while, our extreme defensive system actually worked as it was supposed to, and we didn't have Dockers takeng uncontested marks while 3 Saints looked on surprised that either the man directly covering, or one of the other overlapping zone players didn't achieve the spoil.

With that in place and actually working, it made it much easier to see where our offense is supposed to come from and doesn't.

The Saints breakout plays need a lot of work. If I can direct peoples attention to the late game run through the midfield where Armo got caught for holding the ball, it was clear to see what was supposed to happen. The players were there, and running, but bad choices and bad excecution of the handballs meant the wrong guy had it time and again... backwards when it should have gone lateral, lateral when it should have gone forward, and eventually Armo taking on 2 guys when he had options on all sides.

Get that game working, and we'll do some damage with the "Pagan's paddock" style running into space in the forward line... but without Hayes, we simply didn't ahve the horses after the 1st quarter - Goddard isn't a sprinter, and Gram can't be expected to do it all, or even get that much space against many teams.

A healthy Hayes, in form Dal Santo, and more experience into guys like Armitage and McQualter, and that part of the game should improve, and our scores should go up, while our scores against should stay low... provided all 22 guys are willing to work at it.

We're going to have to suffer through more games (both wins and losses) which inspire fans to scream "football... FOOT ball" and "KICK IT" before we learn to do it well enough to make it look even remotely attractive I would imagine though. For now, we'll likely continue to struggle if we fall behind, and it's tough to see (for yours truly anyway) what the strategy will be if we're not trying to rope-a-dope the opposition when we're in front.

I'm trying to avoid a value judgement on the system, but that what I see in the way the Saints are playing.

[St. Luke]

Lyon will see out his tenure - at least another 1.5 - 2yrs so you better get used to it

Or he'll admit to himself he's not suited to the position and resign.

The expectation placed on him to get a reasonable list performing better than they have been (and should) would be quite fierce. If anyone suggests for a moment that the pressure isn’t already heavily on Lyon they are kidding themselves! Dropping players like Milne and Dal Santo are desperate moves particularly when our injuries are high and our overall confidence is at rock bottom.

While I do not wish to see the back of Lyon, I’d like to see the back of this crap we keep serving up week after week. How will our membership numbers go next season if we keep dishing up this sort of lard?? Let’s hope we gained something from the win this week, something more than just the 4 points because we’re going to need it if we’re to chalk up a win against the Roos!

[aussiejones]

" We wont get far with 36 inside 50's but some experts think Ross has us playing that way because we dont have the cattle to be a serious contender."

So our list is overrated or is it that they are being asked to play an UNNATURAL GAME PLAN that they dont Believe in ?

I think we do have the "cattle" BUT they must be given reign to do what they have been since learning the game as 12 Year olds. The skills they were recruited for need honing and improving . Dont destroy what you have by expecting adherance to a plan that does not suit the skill set we have !

This doesnt mean no rotations or Roo in the back half , but keep the players in the positions thay have learnt , but work on the basic skills.

[ozrulestrace]

What happened to to days gone by, when the Saints were winning games, and their next goal was to go for "PERCENTAGE"?
'Cos the last thing we want to endure as Saints supporters is missing out on the finals by percentage only. That is why I struggle with modern football where is seems more like avoid kicking towards goal at all costs because heaven forbid, we'd be going for percentage .
Ditto with the signal for "dead time" towards the end of the quarter. For God's (and the Saints supporters) sake try something different and try kicking towards goal-you never know we may actually increase our score.
And was I one of those supporters who stood in the last quarter and pointed towards our goal hoping the players would find their way in actually increasing the score and sealing the game.
In paraphrase the words of LBJ in 1968 "we will not seek nor will we nominate" for the finals as long as keep kicking towards the opposition's goals.

[3rd generation saint]

As I have said before RL's game plan is more about trying not to lose than trying to win.

It reeks of negativity, we don't take risks, we have the lowest play on % in the competition and we don't put scoreboard pressure onto teams.

I don't know, maybe RL's got golf mixed up with AFL because he seems to insist on us scoring golf type scores and the performance is way under par. (sorry that just came out).

[RBnW]

As I have said before RL's game plan is more about trying not to lose than trying to win.

It reeks of negativity, we don't take risks, we have the lowest play on % in the competition and we don't put scoreboard pressure onto teams.

I don't know, maybe RL's got golf mixed up with AFL because he seems to insist on us scoring golf type scores and the performance is way under par. (sorry that just came out).

I wonder where RL gets his negativity from......now....mmmmmmmmm....let me think????
Could it be from this forum and our fans.......No.....couldnt be.....