If GT was still in charge....

[marksnsparks]

I'm an avid reader of this forum and there is a fair bit of feeling (to put it mildly) about GT even after 3 years. I'd like to this forums opinion on a few things:

1. What did GT lack in his gameplan to "get us to the next level"?

2. Do you think the stability of a 6-year coach at St Kilda would have won us a flag?

I've no hidden agenda. I was very new to supporting the Saints back then and want opinions from those who have been following the saints for a lot longer than I have.

[Buckets]

Just when i thought it would be a quiet evening!
Hold on a tick while i get my coke and popcorn

[jonesy]

Basically he lacked luck first of all to take us the next step.
Highly unlucky with injuries in 05,and 04 even.

Then he let ego get in the way,and the club is back up the sh!t again

[vacuous space]

Clearly we'd be undefeated on our way to our second straight flag. Dal would have a brownlow and Roo would be getting a Coleman this year. Harvey would be playing on next year for a shot at three straight flags. Swimsuit models would throw themselves at ordinary Saints supporters. Ice cream would taste better. The sun would shine brighter. The grass would definately be greener.

[casey scorp]

An excellent manager of men.

Tactical on-filed coaching ability below other AFL coaches

On balance just not a good enough total package to get over the line.

Yes we had injuries (and an unfair share), but the on-field tactical ability was just not strong enough.

Then he let ego get in the way,and the club is back up the sh!t again

And jonesy's comment is spot on. GT wanted to control all aspects of the clubs operations.

If he (or someone else early enough) had seen his shortcomings we maybe (provided GT's personality could cope with it) could have had a very astute manager of the players and have recruited a great coach. It might have been an unbeatable combination.

[meher baba]

At the time he was sacked I believed that a Mathews or Malthouse or even perhaps a Pagan would have been a step up from GT

We didn't go that way. We sacked him out of spite when we had no plan about how to get anyone better to replace him. The AFL pundits (apart from clowns like Patrick Smith and Robert Walls who had personal agendas) thought this was a puzzlingly high risk strategy. They were right then and events have proven them so

GT wasn't perfect by a long chalk, but I reckon hed have taken us to 2nd place on the ladder this year

[StSteven]

Just when i thought it would be a quiet evening!
Hold on a tick while i get my coke and popcorn

You will certainly need the coke.......

[battye]

An excellent manager of men.

Tactical on-filed coaching ability below other AFL coaches

On balance just not a good enough total package to get over the line.

Yes we had injuries (and an unfair share), but the on-field tactical ability was just not strong enough.

Then he let ego get in the way,and the club is back up the sh!t again

And jonesy's comment is spot on. GT wanted to control all aspects of the clubs operations.

If he (or someone else early enough) had seen his shortcomings we maybe (provided GT's personality could cope with it) could have had a very astute manager of the players and have recruited a great coach. It might have been an unbeatable combination.

Good post.

He also instilled belief and confidence in the players, something which RL has, on the whole, failed to do.

[WayneJudson42]

At the time he was sacked I believed that a Mathews or Malthouse or even perhaps a Pagan would have been a step up from GT

We didn't go that way. We sacked him out of spite when we had no plan about how to get anyone better to replace him. The AFL pundits (apart from clowns like Patrick Smith and Robert Walls who had personal agendas) thought this was a puzzlingly high risk strategy. They were right then and events have proven them so

GT wasn't perfect by a long chalk, but I reckon hed have taken us to 2nd place on the ladder this year

You have chrystal balls?

On what basis do you make such a supersillious assumption?

Let's not devalue his achievements, and he was unlucky with injuries. Then again, if he had his way, we wouldn't have the off field personell that we have today.

How do you know he would have recruited the right people?

Tactically flawed IMO. Revoluionary in some ways, but the better clubs back then had worked us out. Read: Eales, Crows, Brisbane, and Swans.

We smashed weak tems, and got smashed by good teams.

As for media agendas... what do you expect? Both GT and RB lied about his appointment with a straight face, when most new it was a sham. Why wouldn't they dislike him?

Whether or not RL ha been the right selection is another issue and has nothing to do with this post.

Stop pushing your sack-Ross agenda MB.

[WayneJudson42]

2. Do you think the stability of a 6-year coach at St Kilda would have won us a flag?

Only if we had stuck with Blight

[SydneySainter]

With our depth of 04 and 05, we should have been unbeatable. Injuries certainly crippled our campaigns and it looks as though the champions that could have been will never be, too many bodies carrying too many scars. Arguable that GT may have taken us to a flag if we'd had better luck with injuries, but also arguable that our list was so good that he didn't really do much coaching at all and that a trained monkey could have done just as good a job. I'm not an expert on game plans but from what I saw it was a straight attack down the center corridor tactic which was effective the majority of the time, but it wasn't long before other top-four rivals figured out how to beat us and once that happened there was no plan B.

Also arguable that we had some serious flaws in our fitness and condition management which, as coach and experienced football director, should have been cracked down on and addressed early into our 05 campaign, not defended as a continuous bout of bad luck.

[WayneJudson42]

With our depth of 04 and 05, we should have been unbeatable. Injuries certainly crippled our campaigns and it looks as though the champions that could have been will never be, too many bodies carrying too many scars. Arguable that GT may have taken us to a flag if we'd had better luck with injuries, but also arguable that our list was so good that he didn't really do much coaching at all and that a trained monkey could have done just as good a job. I'm not an expert on game plans but from what I saw it was a straight attack down the center corridor tactic which was effective the majority of the time, but it wasn't long before other top-four rivals figured out how to beat us and once that happened there was no plan B.

Also arguable that we had some serious flaws in our fitness and condition management which, as coach and experienced football director, should have been cracked down on and addressed early into our 05 campaign, not defended as a continuous bout of bad luck.

Good sensible, objective post. Sums it up nicely IMO

Had we got thru in 04, Brissy would have smashed us again, like they did in the 1st final (80 points IIRC).

Prelim 05... it was obvious. we couldn't stem the tide in the last quarter.

Coaches dropped a few back, cut supply to G, and doble teamed Roo. Game Over. We were also shyte at stopping teams when they got a run on.

We may have won 14 games in 06, but most of them weren't exactly convincing IIRC.

I recall that when we lost, supports accused us of being one-trick-ponies and flat-track-bullies.

BTW, it's not polite to call Rendell a trained monkey

[st.byron]

If GT was still our coach it would still be 2006.

[bigred]

Basically he lacked luck first of all to take us the next step.
Highly unlucky with injuries in 05,and 04 even.

Then he let ego get in the way,and the club is back up the sh!t again

Hugely unlucky in 04/05...MASSIVELY unlucky.

Quite seriously, if we had of beaten Port Adelaide in that Prelim, that flag would have been ours.

Brisbane were cooked by that week.


If he had of won that flag, he would still be coaching. Full stop.


Moved on...

[Saints Premiers 2008]

this thread is really sad and sums up most supporters

what if...who screwed who etc

ask yourself this...

are freo supporters still asking if their position would be different if cuddles was still in charge???

the answer is no...of course not...and that saying something as freo the footbal club and their supporters are recognized as utter jokes regardless of the dollars behind it

[bobmurray]

If GT was still in charge i'm sure Dal Santo wouldn't be careering towards GOP status.....alas , that is not the case.........

Will we ever get a reasonable reason as to why GT was shafted........

Was it purely so that we could go backwards because we had gone too far forwards......

[Saints Premiers 2008]

If GT was still in charge i'm sure Dal Santo wouldn't be careering towards GOP status.....alas , that is not the case.........

Will we ever get a reasonable reason as to why GT was shafted........

Was it purely so that we could go backwards because we had gone too far forwards......

yep because you know that with gt as a coach dal santo would be the consistant elite player we hope of him

yep case closed

we also know that neil armstrong was the first man on the moon

[st.byron]

If GT was still in charge i'm sure Dal Santo wouldn't be careering towards GOP status.....alas , that is not the case.........

Will we ever get a reasonable reason as to why GT was shafted........

Was it purely so that we could go backwards because we had gone too far forwards......

If Allan Jeans was still in charge we'd have 14 premierships.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

If GT was still in charge i'm sure Dal Santo wouldn't be careering towards GOP status.....alas , that is not the case.........

Will we ever get a reasonable reason as to why GT was shafted........

Was it purely so that we could go backwards because we had gone too far forwards......

If Allan Jeans was still in charge we'd have 14 premierships.

if we had daniel kerr, lance franklin and dean cox in our team we would have won a premiership

[st.byron]

if we had daniel kerr, lance franklin and dean cox in our team we would have won a premiership

If Richard Pratt was a Saints man we'd have truckloads of money as well.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

if we had daniel kerr, lance franklin and dean cox in our team we would have won a premiership

If Richard Pratt was a Saints man we'd have truckloads of money as well.

if i had the talent and body of dane swan i would be dane swan

[st.byron]

if we had daniel kerr, lance franklin and dean cox in our team we would have won a premiership

If Richard Pratt was a Saints man we'd have truckloads of money as well.

if i had the talent and body of dane swan i would be dane swan

[JeffDunne]

Pointless question.

I have a better one though for the GT haters.

We read time and time again from the same people about GT's tactical deficiencies but rarely do we ever see specific cases quoted where opposition coaches tore him a new one.

Would someone like to cite an example of where GT was comprehensively beaten in the coaches box in an important game?

Lyon is supposed to be a tactical genius but there’s hardly a week where he doesn’t get at least one matchup horribly wrong.

I hear GT didn’t rate ruckman and played Blake & Kosi in the ruck. I hear too that GT had only a plan A, which involved bombing it long to our forwards. I believe too his selections were poor because he played players like Fiora, Mini & Gwilt.

I’m glad Ross isn’t making those sort of tactical ‘blunders’.


This should be an easy challenge for the GT haters out there.

[Mr Magic]

Pointless question.

I have a better one though for the GT haters.

We read time and time again from the same people about GT's tactical deficiencies but rarely do we ever see specific cases quoted where opposition coaches tore him a new one.

Would someone like to cite an example of where GT was comprehensively beaten in the coaches box in an important game?

Lyon is supposed to be a tactical genius but there’s hardly a week where he doesn’t get at least one matchup horribly wrong.

I hear GT didn’t rate ruckman and played Blake & Kosi in the ruck. I hear too that GT had only a plan A, which involved bombing it long to our forwards. I believe too his selections were poor because he played players like Fiora, Mini & Gwilt.

I’m glad Ross isn’t making those sort of tactical ‘blunders’.


This should be an easy challenge for the GT haters out there.

I don't consider myself a 'GT hater' but you asked for 1?

Round 12, 2004 vs Bulldogs at MCG.
GT started Lenny on the bench for most of the first quarter whilst the Bulldogs tore us a 'new one'.

A 'great move' which seemed to work really well!

[meher baba]

Pointless question.

I have a better one though for the GT haters.

We read time and time again from the same people about GT's tactical deficiencies but rarely do we ever see specific cases quoted where opposition coaches tore him a new one.

Would someone like to cite an example of where GT was comprehensively beaten in the coaches box in an important game?

Lyon is supposed to be a tactical genius but there’s hardly a week where he doesn’t get at least one matchup horribly wrong.

I hear GT didn’t rate ruckman and played Blake & Kosi in the ruck. I hear too that GT had only a plan A, which involved bombing it long to our forwards. I believe too his selections were poor because he played players like Fiora, Mini & Gwilt.

I’m glad Ross isn’t making those sort of tactical ‘blunders’.


This should be an easy challenge for the GT haters out there.

As everyone knows, I'm not a GT hater, but I can think of a few instances fairly quickly dating from 2004-06

Dogs in 2004

Bombers at TD 2005

Adelaide at TD 2005

Freo at Aurora 2005 (very lucky win)

Freo at Aurora 2006

The Cats in our first game against them in 2006

Not the Swans in the PF 2005: we were outgunned. Likewise the Dees in the 2006 EF: we were killed by injuries

Otherwise, we mainly only lost in that era when we were outgunned, killed by injuries or crucified by umps (games against Freo in 2005 and Port in 2006 spring quickly to mind).

Lyon has been outcoached in as many games this year alone (Dogs, Tigers, Port at TD, Eagles, Piesx2: all games we should have won easily on superior talent)

Some on here like to blame the players, but the same players weren't playing like this even as recently as 2006