full forward

[bigcarl]

with ross coming out this morning and saying he'll be playing kosi as a ruck/forward rather than key forward, it begs the question: who is at full forward?

the biggest difference at st kilda now to a couple of years ago (leaving the coach out of it for a while) is the lack of a sure route(s) to goal.

fraser's decline has really hurt us and we haven't come up with a viable alternative to take some heat off riewoldt.

carlton over the past couple of months has shown the value of having a good, in-form spearhead ... albeit a d**khead.

so who are the options?

riewoldt: would make a good spearhead, but there is a school of thought that his endurance is his best asset and would be wasted in the most static position on the ground. also, if he is at ff who plays chf? kicking not as reliable as one would like.

gehrig: five time leading goal-kicker, dual coleman medallist and hundred goal-kicker. would be a short-term solution (2008 only) but plugger66 (whose mail is pretty good) says that his papers are already signed and he won't play again.

gwilt: was impressive a couple of weeks ago used in the forward line, but i'd like to see him cement his place in the team as a footballer first before using him in such a vital position.

allen: didn't do much in the few games he's played so far. highly promising, but may not be ready yet.

mcevoy: like kosi probably more of a ruck/forward. like allen highly promising but might not be ready yet.

ferguson: led and presented well in our thumping win over melbourne some weeks back, but couldn't convert. sort of an in-between size and might be considered smallish to hold down a key position.

bj: not explosive on the lead or a noted contested mark, but i think he's a good enough footballer to be able to get the ball one way or another. reads the play and bounce of the ball very well. some would say he's too valuable elsewhere on the ground, but really, what's more important than getting the forward line to function?

rix: i don't think so.

gilbert: quick on the lead and has attacking flair, though we're trying to beat that out of him. an awkward but effective kick for goal. might be our next full back, however.

.......

there are others, i'm sure who could be considered. personally, for the rest of 2008 i'd go either goddard or gehrig.

complicating our very poor forward set up (in which way too much responsibility for kicking a winning score falls to riewoldt) is the gameplan.

half the time there is no-one home, the players having done the coach's bidding and gotten behind the ball.

[plugger66]

Full forwards are overated in todays footy. What is more important is having plenty of avenues to goal and plenty of forward pressure. We have niether as we dont have enough goal kicking mids and people we put in the forward line hoping they will become forwards arent good enough. And our current goal kicking forwards in Rooy, Milney, Kosi ans Schneider dont put dont or arent allowed to put pressure on the oppositions backline.

The only person who could play FF at the moment is Rooy but he seems to be required elsewhere.

[bigcarl]

Full forwards are overated in todays footy.

buddy franklin, brendan fevola?

there's a lot to be said for a sure route to goal.

[Sobraz]

Its a tought position to nail down, thats why so many go through stages when they struggle.. Kosi is there at the moment, along with N. Thompson, J. Brown and up until a fortnight ago, M. Lloyd...

For mine, I would look back to go forward, and that would be Sam Fisher.. Is a good height, very strong overhead and a reliable kick...

Id make Kosi into a wall at CHB with Blake and Max as his big bodied assistance, with BJ, Gram, Gwilt providing the loose run from HB...

We really miss a nuggety specialist back pocket in the form of L. Fisher... I would give up his midfield aspirations, and put him back on the last line...

Chips to FF for mine...

[bigcarl]

Sam Fisher.. Is a good height, very strong overhead and a reliable kick.

there's one i missed.

[plugger66]

Full forwards are overated in todays footy.

buddy franklin, brendan fevola?

there's a lot to be said for a sure route to goal.

Buddy doesnt really play FF and Fevola as good as he is isnt even in a side in the 8.

[spert]

Allen should be given a couple more games at FF, as we have nothing to lose in a forward line that struggles to kick a decent score even with our supposed good players. Kosi needs a run in the Scorps.

[bigcarl]

Buddy doesnt really play FF.

he's hawthorn's main avenue to goal and is leading the coleman medal (i think). in reality he is their full forward.

[plugger66]

Allen should be given a couple more games at FF, as we have nothing to lose in a forward line that struggles to kick a decent score even with our supposed good players. Kosi needs a run in the Scorps.

I think Allen may be an OK player but really did nothing in the games he played and since being dropped has done even less. Must play blokes who are at least getting a kick at Scorps or those that are getting kicks and not being played lose all confidence.

[WayneJudson42]

I think that the days of a traditional FF is over.

You need some one mobile who can also chase and apply pressure. This is partly why Gtrain dropped off. Most playes are set up from running backs like Scarlett. So the old goalsquare gorrilla's days are over IMO.

Frankil, the sledghammer have that capacity, as does Buddy and Steve Johnson. Even Dale Thomas does a reasonable job.

Of our current crop... Gwilt, Frgo and Allen probably fit the mould.

A fully fit Kosi wouldn't be so bad either

We have defenders to fill the role, but TBH you rob Peter to pay Paul.

[desertsaint]

Not your classic full forward but any chance of a trade for mark williams - is almost excess requirements for the hawks.

[rodgerfox]

No FF.

I've said this all along.

We play a 'mini-midfield division' in our forward line.

No 'key target'.

Many players drifting in, and drifting out. Plenty of rotations through the forward line.

And Dal Santo to play one of the roles.


This entire forward division rolls as a pack. But doesn't roll too far.

Each player should be more than 30-40m away from each other. They need to play as a group. Both when we have it, and when we don't.

[bigcarl]

We have defenders to fill the role, but TBH you rob Peter to pay Paul.

so it's more important to try to save a game than try to win it. you're not ross are you?

[bigcarl]

Many players drifting in, and drifting out. Plenty of rotations through the forward line. And Dal Santo to play one of the roles.

yes. he should be played forward.

[spert]

You only really know by playing these guys as much as possible in the seniors..I thought Allen got some quality possessions in his few games in the seniors and I would have kept persisting with him

[plugger66]

I think that the days of a traditional FF is over.

You need some one mobile who can also chase and apply pressure. This is partly why Gtrain dropped off. Most playes are set up from running backs like Scarlett. So the old goalsquare gorrilla's days are over IMO.

Frankil, the sledghammer have that capacity, as does Buddy and Steve Johnson. Even Dale Thomas does a reasonable job.

Of our current crop... Gwilt, Frgo and Allen probably fit the mould.

A fully fit Kosi wouldn't be so bad either

We have defenders to fill the role, but TBH you rob Peter to pay Paul.

Kosi is fit or should be. He isnt a FF and I have said since the start of the year he hasnt got FF skills. He cannot mark on a lead and doesnt know how to lead. All he can do is take an occasional pack mark and that doesnt make a FF.

[Raven]

I think S. Fisher will be missed too much in the backline to throw him forward. He's saved us so many times. We're too short on defenders as it is.

[bigcarl]

I think that the days of a traditional FF is over.

You need some one mobile who can also chase and apply pressure. This is partly why Gtrain dropped off. Most playes are set up from running backs like Scarlett. So the old goalsquare gorrilla's days are over IMO.

Frankil, the sledghammer have that capacity, as does Buddy and Steve Johnson. Even Dale Thomas does a reasonable job.

Of our current crop... Gwilt, Frgo and Allen probably fit the mould.

A fully fit Kosi wouldn't be so bad either

We have defenders to fill the role, but TBH you rob Peter to pay Paul.

Kosi is fit or should be. He isnt a FF and I have said since the start of the year he hasnt got FF skills. He cannot mark on a lead and doesnt know how to lead. All he can do is take an occasional pack mark and that doesnt make a FF.

ross seems to have come around to your point of view and stated that from now on he'll be used as a ruck/forward ... and more of a ruck than a forward.

i'm not saying we need a 100-goal a year
type, just someone else down there apart from riewoldt who can take a mark and kick a goal.

and that sure as hell isn't milne as we saw often on saturday night.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I don't think the problem has been personall at FF.

I think the trouble has been the regularity with which we:
a) Turn over the ball at HF, or
b) get to the HFF only to have play completely stall.

I believe the plan is to run and link up through handballs, giving the forwards time to get into position to lead, or provide an opportunity to the mids to kick a goal. If we can find the marking targets, we've also looked alright when Roo kicks to Kosi, kicks back too Roo with the flight.

However, when we're denied the corridor, and can't find longer marks (Collingwood did a really good job of occupying the space we like to kick to to get out of pressure), we stall.

Personally, I'd either change the way I employed certain personell, or I'd rejig the defensive zones to allow me to send 1 forward up the ground while they kicked around my flood... gambling that with the unknown of a player behind them, they'd hurry to kick to a contest, and that in event of a turnover, the offense is a bit simpler.

We make playing offense look really really hard.

[bigcarl]

BAM! (shhhh) wrote:
I don't think the problem has been personall at FF.

I think the trouble has been the regularity with which we:
a) Turn over the ball at HF, or
b) get to the HFF only to have play completely stall.

that's when we kick it to roo with three guys on him.

we need to be constantly on guard against being too dependent on him and a big part of that is having other marking targets forward.

for most of the season we've been happy to have a backline stacked with "talls" ... fisher, goddard, gilbert, max, blake ... that's five guys.

yet forward of the centre we have only roo and occasionally kosi as true marking targets.

is this the correct balance, do you think?

[maverick]

You only really know by playing these guys as much as possible in the seniors..I thought Allen got some quality possessions in his few games in the seniors and I would have kept persisting with him

I agree, Allen broke open a few packs and really contested for the ball, liked the signs.

If there's someone else pushing themselves up thats taller than 6ft then play them first, otherwise give him a go

[saintsRrising]

You don't need set big forwards static in set roles.

But you want to have at least two big bodies in your forward line at any one time, sometimes three.

Kosi can be one of these two, but is better suited o be firther out from goal floating in space than at FF leading out.

With Kosi aprt from marking his role is not to not outmarkedso that when he fails to mark the ball is spoilt providig crumbing opportunities.

We desperately need a good midsized forward.
Charlie is very close to being good enough...but is just not quite AFL level.

Gwilt has shown some interesting flashes when up forward in his last two games...so there is some hope there...but it is way to soon to know.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I don't think the problem has been personall at FF.

I think the trouble has been the regularity with which we:
a) Turn over the ball at HF, or
b) get to the HFF only to have play completely stall.

that's when we kick it to roo with three guys on him.

we need to be constantly on guard against being too dependent on him and a big part of that is having other marking targets forward.

for most of the season we've been happy to have a backline stacked with "talls" ... fisher, goddard, gilbert, max, blake ... that's five guys.

yet forward of the centre we have only roo and occasionally kosi as true marking targets.

is this the correct balance, do you think?

Carl, I will admit, I at times have a smile at your (seeming) desire to play every talented player we have and a few others in the forward line. I smile at the idea of us flooding the forward line at the centre bounce. I tell you this (knowing it's not what you're actually saying) because I know exactly where you're coming from, and agree. With the skills on our list, it's a crying shame that our forward structure is so poor (give me a few beers and I'll tell you it's a crime).

To answer your question - absolutely not.

Our forward line consists of Milney, Roo (sometimes) and Kosi (sometimes). We have a lot of problems covered by the superhuman efforts of Reiwoldt, and the year Milne has had... which is probably at least partly due to getting the share of the small supply there is.

I wish Allen or Charlie Gardiner had shown a bit more, because the team looked much better with them in there.

Were I to suggest a solution without resorting to changing the structure, which isn't going to happen (the exagerated version of which becomes the aforementioned forward line flood I've unfairly attributed to you)... I'd suggest we do more of what we did with Gwilt a couple of weeks back - swing them forward. We get a lot of lose players, let them take it in turns to give their direct opponents nightmares by heading up into the forward line. Plan it. Roughhead comes back to help out, then heads forward and teams struggle to cover him in spite of Hawthorn's undermanned forward line.

Rotate the options. Other teams will end up reacting to us: "where's your man?", "oh fudgesickles, not again."

[bigcarl]

Carl, I will admit, I at times have a smile at your (seeming) desire to play every talented player we have and a few others in the forward line."

a little simplistic maybe, but the team that kicks the most goals wins doesn't it? i reckon your most talented players should be on the ball or in the forward line.

[oh when]

I think our biggest problem is our very inccurate kicking for goal - we don't drill goals that other clubs seem to be able to nail with relative ease therefore we are always behind the eight ball - many misses result in a 11 point turnover.