Cj and the finals

[meher baba]

Hi y'all

I notice the topic of CJ, and whether or not he should be in our team for the finals, bobbing up in a number of threads lately. So I thought that it mightn't be a bad idea to start a CJ-specific thread in which we can really thrash the matter out.

Personally, I find CJ to be a very appealling sort of a player: he gives 120 per cent, he's aggressive, he wants to win, he can tackle.

However, while I acknowledge that he doesn't produce as many clear turnovers as he used to do, I still think his disposal by foot is basically UTS. He can be relied upon to hit someone totally in the clear with a slow, looping pass about 4 out of 5 occasions.

He has virtually no sense of how strategically to mount or direct an attack fromt the back half of the ground. At best, he can get the ball to someone else who can do this. At worst, he can clog up the attack by going sideways or backwards to a player he feels confident he can hit, which can result in the play going to the wrong side of the field and clogging everything up: which often results in a turnover which might not appear to be CJ's fault, but for which he was effectively the instigator.

Watching Raph, with his undoubted tendency to make the occasional howler, and being able to compare him to CJ, I could see how Raph's delivery forward was infinitely more effective: he actually has the skill to send the ball by foot at more than a snail's pace to precisely where he wants to put it. Players like Dal, BJ, Chips and Gwilt are streets ahead of Raph, let alone CJ.

Now, I've only managed to get to a couple of games live this year, at which CJ's clogging effect on attacks from the back half was bleeding obvious to me. But I have even been able to detect it on TV in some games: especially on Sunday (perhaps because he got so many disposals).

I'm surprised at all the CJ love on here - "I'm warming to CJ, etc." - shown by posters who often also complain about our poor disposal skills by foot and hand. Gram and Joey are unreliable enough with their disposal: can we really afford to have 3 such players operating in the back half of the field against the likes of the Cats or the Dogs?

Anyway, I appreciate that others see this very differently to me, so I'm hoping for an interesting discussion.

[bigcarl]

my memory of the game is that cj was one of the few keeping us in it when the chips were down early on. he didn't lessen intensity all day either.

his ugly kicking style doesn't win many friends among the football purists, but i think he compensates for it by being very good in other key areas.

he's quick, aggressive and can lay a tackle. gets a lot of it and, most of the time, uses it to our advantage. you can never fault his effort.

imo he's in our best 22.

[Sobraz]

Its hard not to value and admire his application, he goes at it 100 miles an hour..

However,

For mine, he is not good enough and should be out... I have seen all vic games this year, and he is far worse live IMO than on tv...

I think he was our worst player on the weekend, (or 2nd, ahead of charlie), due to his shocking decision making and very average disposal..

Sure, his 'efficiency' is not that low looking at stats, but the amount of time he sold his teammates, particularly Joey, into trouble was ridiculous..

X is a certain starter ahead of him, as is mini.... I think Eddy is ahead of him also..

[Superboot]

Just a couple of comments.

His disposal of the ball although still poor has improved 3000% compared with what is was like when he first came into the team. Back then he was quick but offered nothing else. He made you wonder how a player who could neither kick nor handpass could become an AFL player. Now we are wondering whether he's good enough to play in the finals. So things have shifted a bit.

His capacity to run at speed, lay tackles, keep keeping on etc are exactly what more than half the team are lacking when we have one of those bad days. On occasion he could almost have been named among our best 6 simply because he persists, but maybe that's more a reflection of his team mates than of CJ.

The key question is not whether he's good enough but rather whether he's in our best 22. With Bally and X fit, then maybe not. But on recent performances he's marginally better value than Fizz for example. I'd put him in our best 24.

[Sobraz]

Just a couple of comments.

His disposal of the ball although still poor has improved 3000% compared with what is was like when he first came into the team. Back then he was quick but offered nothing else. He made you wonder how a player who could neither kick nor handpass could become an AFL player. Now we are wondering whether he's good enough to play in the finals. So things have shifted a bit.

His capacity to run at speed, lay tackles, keep keeping on etc was exactly what more than half the team are lacking when we have one of those bad days. On occasion he could almost have been named among our best 6 simply because he persists, but maybe that's more a reflection of his team mates than of CJ.

The key question is not whether he's good enough but rather whether he's in our best 22. With Bally and X fit, then maybe not. But on recent performances he's marginally better value than Fizz for example. I'd put him in our best 24.

agree with best 24.... would put him way ahead of Fiora... buts thats a discussion for another thread....

[Red]

The negatives are his footskills and some of his decision making.

The positives are he is pretty good by hand, provides lots of run, does all

the 1%ers and he has a strong body which will be important come finals

time.

The other thing is he is probably one of the more consistent players in the

side. He doesn't have a lot of ups and downs. In fact I don't think there has

being a week that he hasn't improved. You can't ask much more than that.

[bigcarl]

the other thing is that the guy is a ball magnet.

on sunday only montagna, goddard and gram had more disposals.

the guys i'd like to tip from the team are the ones who can't get the ball.

[The Saintsational Man]

He has heart.....and when it comes down to it, that's the most important thing in a player.....he never gives up and due to that, I believe he's in our best 22.

[Otiman]

He is an asset and a liability in one.

I believe the asset is extremely important in finals footy, and his liability is slightly diminished, due to the scrappy nature of most finals.

In games like today, where skill by foot is key in maintaining posession and frustrating the opposition, he is shown up. However in wet weather games, and games which are a bit of a slug fest, with sloppy skills on each side, then he comes into play and is in our top 10.

[rodgerfox]

the other thing is that the guy is a ball magnet.

on sunday only montagna, goddard and gram had more disposals.

the guys i'd like to tip from the team are the ones who can't get the ball.

Good opponents let guys like CJ get the pill.

[joffaboy]

the other thing is that the guy is a ball magnet.

on sunday only montagna, goddard and gram had more disposals.

the guys i'd like to tip from the team are the ones who can't get the ball.

Good opponents let guys like CJ get the pill.

yeah they have been letting the likes of harvey get it for 21 seasons.

Not being facetious but there is or was a prevailing belief that Harvey didn't hurt you when he had the pill.

now the above is patently wrong but with a player like cj or Andrew Thompson it is certainly true. cj actually attempted to kick the ball with his right foot on the weekend with unexpectedly good results (he shanked it and it rolled out over the boundary).

Really, who would the opposition rather have the pill cj or bj???

[n1ck]

The thing I like about CJ is that he is aware of his limitations.

The improvement in his disposal has been enormous, but I also put it down to him not trying to thread the ball through the eye of a needle anymore.

He's well aware of his deficiencies, and so, unlike Dal or Ball, will ont hit a target 50m away, but he will hit a target 25 or 30m away, and if there isnt an option like that, he'l either run the ball himself, or handball to an option with better footskills to hit someone else.

Players with his running, chasing and tackling abilities are needed come September.

[bob__71]

Another great insight there Rodger...good players who let their oponent get the ball....yet again showing how much football you have ever played or how much you know about the game. flog

[SAINT JUMP]

I can remember that, in a pack of players, kicked along the bountary, went out.gained 40m,Throw in from bountary, we goaled.Is that bad play..

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Interesting choice of players to compare in the OP. Raph Clarke vs Clinton Jones. Based on the last couple of games, I definately think there's room in the finals team for both, for near opposite reasons.

CJ is a forward pressure machine. He chases all day long, tackles like a maniac, and is a good handball running player (which is where his better efficiency numbers are coming from this year, an underrated skill that as a team we're not overpossessed of). The problem is his kicking.

With Raph, his kicking is excellent. When he's been coming in off the wing or through the middle from centre the last couple of games, the kick inside 50 is a real strength. He sees a spot and that's where the ball lands, his accuracy is fantastic. His tackling isn't bad, and he's got more size, and he can run and all, but his handballs tend to be of the "hospital" variety.

They add very different strengths to the team. I'd like to see both in the finals. I'd like Raph to be the guy that CJ handballs to at the end of a run, rather than the other way around.

[WayneJudson42]

Disposal, and tackling aside, one thing I do notice is that due to his running, he can provide an option around the packs to release the ball to him. seems to run to almost every contest.

Is also fit and match hardened.

[bigcarl]

Really, who would the opposition rather have the pill cj or bj???

they can't all be no. 1 draft picks. there's probably no-one in the competition who uses it better than bj.

bj's the thoroughbred whereas cj is the unfashionable hack who makes up for his deficiencies with a huge heart and sheer effort.

[bigcarl]

Raph Clarke vs Clinton Jones. Based on the last couple of games, I definately think there's room in the finals team for both

agree.

[rodgerfox]

Another great insight there Rodger...good players who let their oponent get the ball....yet again showing how much football you have ever played or how much you know about the game. flog

That is very naive.

Opposition want Max, CJ and Blake to get the ball (obviously if we have to get posession at all).

They will leave these guys free and double team BJ, Gram, Sam Fisher etc.

When Max, Blake, CJ etc. are getting the ball across half back, it's no coincidence that as a team, we look slow, inefficient and can't score.

As soon as our coaching department respond and create ways for our good players to get their hands on it - we look better immediately.

It's hardly an insight. It's basic footy knowledge and common sense.


It's also why teams bust their arse to ensure their good kickers are getting loose ball. It's why Geelong work so hard to protect Ablett. It's why we used to work so hard to get the nut in Aussie Jones' hands.

It's often why you find the very good kicks take the kick ins from FB and go short - then end up getting it back themselves. It frees them up and allows to them to get their hands on it.

[mad saint guy]

Another great insight there Rodger...good players who let their oponent get the ball....yet again showing how much football you have ever played or how much you know about the game. flog

If you actually watch what is going on during games then you'll see that he is absolutely right. CJ usually plays 15-20m off his opponent which results in many easy possessions for both of them.

What costs us is when Jones is sitting off his opponent when they are rebonding from defence, allowing his opponent to get the footy in the clear and run it forwards. This scenario is where CJ's infamous pressure and chasing comes from. Personally I'd rather that Jones simply stay close to his opponent while we're defending and not let them get the ball uncontested, but most on here seem to love his 40m chases down the wing, since 1 in every 20 results in an exciting run-down.

[SAINT JUMP]

You only voice your mind when its about jones, msg.

[kaos theory]

The biggest issue I have with CJ is his decision-making & disposal (specifically by hand).

Yes, he has qualities, and his foot skills are getting a little better.

But we are moving into finals and mistakes get magnified and punished more severely.

Too often his decision/execution effort is poor:
- He will be slow and indecisive as to which target to hit by hand/foot (not by a lot, but its there)
- He will poorly execute the action (handball/kick) which causes a turnover, a tackle or a breakdown in the forward movement
- He will choose the wrong target, again which causes a turnover, a tackle or a breakdown in the forward movement

Amongst the skill of ball movement & decision making of the likes of Dal, Lenny, Harvey, Monty, Ball, Gram, Goddard & Milne (even mini), he stands out like 'dogs balls'.....he is the weakest link in this midfield chain.

IF X. Clarke can get fit and come in this week, he should ultimately take Jones' place. We need to try to WIN a FLAG, not just make up the numbers…we need improvement in every facet of the game we can muster. X has his pace, but heaps more skill and better decision-making…

If X can't get up to full fitness and rythym of the game in time, then CJ might hold his position.

[plugger66]

I dont think it matters whether we like CJ or not because Im pretty sure one person does like him and he isnt going anywhere in the short term.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

the other thing is that the guy is a ball magnet.

on sunday only montagna, goddard and gram had more disposals.

the guys i'd like to tip from the team are the ones who can't get the ball.

Good opponents let guys like CJ get the pill.

here i though good opponents didnt let the other team get the ball .....

[bergsone]

I would definately have CJ in at finals,he is hard at it allways ,disposal is not as bad as some on here believe,and NO side in the history of the game has ever had a complete team of silky skilled players