How we gonna challenge Cats/Hawks?

[Teflon]

I dont believe the theory some espouse that get Cousins and we morph into some super midfield....so wheres the improvement GOT to come from if we are a realistic chance of going the ultimate step?

Aside from improvements from regular senior players like Dal Santo/Kosi, X etc (I believe both all have enormous upside) for me we have to get something at the younger level this year.

I know they are still developing but we have to see something from....a glimmer...anything...from Steven, McEvoy, Howard, Miles, et al this year if we are gonna catch our current core and have the depth that enables to challenge seriously.

We also need to real steps taken by Allen, Gwilt, Raph, Armo if we are going anywhere.

We got smashed by 10 goals by both Cats/Hawks. Not a coincidence.....how do we bridge that gap? can we?

[Saints Premiers 2008]

not entirely sure if we can,

the improvement and coming on has to come from our smalls, we still have major defenciencies from both the midfield and small defenders

our small forwards are fine and im comfortable with if milne went down schnieder would do a good job at being the best small pocket

apart from the usual suspects there is noone else who has had a standout game yet, armo has shown glimpses during matches and for this we wet ourselves - the fact is he hasn't done well in a match, stood out, played a major part in a win...even bobbed up and kicked a few

geary has been on the field...hasnt shown much

eddy same as armo

i hope steven turns out to be half the player everyone on here rates him to become

[Teflon]

Agree SP.

Im not being a pessimist - I want to be a realist but when you really objectively sit back and look whats coming through......adding that extra depth quality for 09 is tough.

Whats frustrates me is when I hear people say "yeah your best 10 are as good as anyones...but after that...."

Who wants to be also rans each year - we HAVE to find a way with some of this core to take it to another level or we may find some dark years on the horizon sooner than we like in an environment not as helpful to bottoming out clubs...

This years draft/recrutment is crucial. Rookie selections need to unearth a gem IMO.

[bigcarl]

i don't think we're that far off it.

our core is talented and experienced and at an age where they should be playing their best football.

what i will say, though, is that trying to restrict and shut down teams such as hawthorn and geelong is not going to work.

to beat them you need to outscore them and this is where we must improve.

we need a gameplan that is less focussed on stopping and more on making the play ourselves and kicking winning scores.

i'd like to see "numbers behind the ball" scaled back and return to a situation where we actually have a forward line to kick it to.

i'd make it a priority to free up some of the talent we have in our backline and re-deploy them to other important positions.

goddard, s. fisher, gram, raph and gilbert were often used in the backline in 2008 (not in key positions) while our midfield and forward line were being exposed.

i'm all for run off half back, but let's not neglect winning the midfield or putting a score on the board.

if players such as goose, baker, xavier clarke, farren ray or l. fisher can slot into the back line, it will free up some of the above for more offensive duties.

i'd try bj at full forward (i think he's capable of kicking 70-plus) and add raph, gram, gilbert and perhaps even sam fisher to the midfield rotation. obviously ben cousins and a fully fit luke ball would be more than handy additions.

i'd use dal santo as a half forward.

i'm not convinced he's a gut-running midfielder (he might not have the tank) but i am still certain that he's a very damaging offensive player who would be devastating alongside riewoldt.

that's how i'd tweak it, but, as you say teflon, we do also need some quick improvement from some of the young players.

B: Baker (if fit), Hudghton, X. Clarke
HB: Gram, Maguire (if fit), S. Fisher
C: Blake, Hayes, Gilbert
HF: Milne, Riewoldt, Dal Santo
F: Koschitzke, Goddard, Schneider

Foll: King, Cousins, Ball
Inter: R. Clarke, Montagna, C. Jones, Armitage.

[JeffDunne]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we beat the Hawks the first time we played them this year?

The reality is there's not much between the teams as a 5-minute-memory would have you believe.

Give us a good run with injury and half our best 22 in career best form and I have no doubt we can beat any team in it. The enviorment in the past has't been condusive to getting those two right so you would hope that the efforts gone into fixing them will start delivering results.

[plugger66]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we beat the Hawks the first time we played them this year?

The reality is there's not much between the teams as a 5-minute-memory would have you believe.

Give us a good run with injury and half our best 22 in career best form and I have no doubt we can beat any team in it. The enviorment in the past has't been condusive to getting those two right so you would hope that the efforts gone into fixing them will start delivering results.

I dont think it is as easy as saying didnt we beat the Hawks. The more important stat is we won 14 out of 25 so looking at it that way we are a fair way off the top 2. We need to get our midfield to somehow kick more goals and that may happen if we are able to play BJ there and pick up Cousins. Also Kosi must improve as must Dal. The younger guys also need to show more if possible. That is probably the most important thing that must happen as we know what we will probably get from our better players and that just gave us only a 64% win ratio this year.

[S.A Saint]

i believe that we are not that far away from the hawks and geelong as some people may think....each club has got its strong points and its weaknesses which can be exploited in some way or another.....

to challenge them next year we would have to improve in these departments.

our mids must kick between 5-10 more goals than they did this year each. schneider to kick 10 -15 more goals than he has this year. we need to hopefully develop allen as our next ff who can kick 15-20 goals next year. kosi when resting in the forward line to contribute 2-3 goals a game.i believe that if we could improve in these area we are a serious shot at the flag.

plus with the addition with a fit bally, hopefully maguire and baker there is still heaps of room for improvement...

ohhh and another thing, our FOOT SKILLS need to improve drastically because we were absolutely terrible throughout the whole year.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we beat the Hawks the first time we played them this year?

The reality is there's not much between the teams as a 5-minute-memory would have you believe.

Give us a good run with injury and half our best 22 in career best form and I have no doubt we can beat any team in it. The enviorment in the past has't been condusive to getting those two right so you would hope that the efforts gone into fixing them will start delivering results.

we beat them but couldnt even stand up when it counted...

yey we beat the premiers in a home and away game...big deal...

we also beat freo

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Agree SP.

Im not being a pessimist - I want to be a realist but when you really objectively sit back and look whats coming through......adding that extra depth quality for 09 is tough.

Whats frustrates me is when I hear people say "yeah your best 10 are as good as anyones...but after that...."

Who wants to be also rans each year - we HAVE to find a way with some of this core to take it to another level or we may find some dark years on the horizon sooner than we like in an environment not as helpful to bottoming out clubs...

This years draft/recrutment is crucial. Rookie selections need to unearth a gem IMO.

whilst we have the gun 2/3's we always say the next draft is crucial though...which isn't too healthy as lists change over so much like ours this year, you need younger blood in the side not a player who has been in the system for a few years and hasn't shown too much

i personally don't see the point of finishing 4th, we failed it might as well be last

we don't need backline depth, our depth gets covered by the fact that bj, gram and fisher can float back and play key back therefore covering any issue that might arise if say gwilt or raph is getting towelled

and again we don't need this midfield depth...we need players can make a contribution but time when a major cog in the clearance machine goes down (i.e. ball....again)

in a perfect world you would love one of the draftees to play 20-25 matches next season, and have two or armo, allen, geary and eddy play the entire year

[markp]

We're not far off it.... we need the sort of injection in our midfield that Cousins could provide, a bit of recruiting fortune, returns from injury to go smoothly, and for some of our youngsters to take another step.

Also I'm keen to see what another full pre-season under Misson can produce, by some accounts last year was more a case of damage control, and this year they expect to work on core strength.... I'm hoping we'll be harder and fitter than ever.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

We're not far off it.... we need the sort of injection in our midfield that Cousins could provide, a bit of recruiting fortune, returns from injury to go smoothly, and for some of our youngsters to take another step.

Also I'm keen to see what another full pre-season under Misson can produce, by some accounts last year was more a case of damage control, and this year they expect to work on core strength.... I'm hoping we'll be harder and fitter than ever.

since when has a team mentioned their fitness cordinator so much though???

it sounds like denial of the masses that it is not injury that has curtailed our impact but its actually been talent and the inability to turn it on when counted

[WayneJudson42]

IF we get Cuz, then all he's doing is replacing Harvey.

Improvement must come from having our better players in the middle such as BJ and Chips. Which means that to free them up, the likes of Gwilt, x and Raph have to step up...as does Kosi and Dal.

We WILL need at least 1 or 2 of the "kids" also improving. Oh, and don't forget Ray.

Let's be honest... if the Cats kicked straight, it was game over at 1/2 time. Hawks should improve next year, but can the Cats maintain their high level?

Wasn't the Dons of 99-2000 the greatest ever? Ansee what happened to them. WCE the same a few years back?

[WinnersOnly]

Midfields are where games are won!

IMO we need to release Sam FISHER from the back half to play a midfield resting forward role ala Goodes. This plus Cousins & Ray giving us extra run and carry and the improvement of the younger players we might bridge the gap.

[markp]

We're not far off it.... we need the sort of injection in our midfield that Cousins could provide, a bit of recruiting fortune, returns from injury to go smoothly, and for some of our youngsters to take another step.

Also I'm keen to see what another full pre-season under Misson can produce, by some accounts last year was more a case of damage control, and this year they expect to work on core strength.... I'm hoping we'll be harder and fitter than ever.

since when has a team mentioned their fitness cordinator so much though???

it sounds like denial of the masses that it is not injury that has curtailed our impact but its actually been talent and the inability to turn it on when counted

Since his name was David Misson.

Most things you do are 80% preparation... we have the talent.

Dismissing our inconsistency and fade-outs as merely because we're 'soft' is too simplistic.

I think/hope 2009 is the year we'll really begin to reap the full benefits of the Misson appointment.

[Solar]

It is a hard question to answer because of the very basis that might push up to that next level and thats the "if's"

if maguire gets fit and firing, will release raph clarke and chips to play a more attacking role

if baker gets his knee right and can replace the injured dempster

if raph clarke continues his finals form into the H & A arena,

if gilbert develops into a replacement full back for maxy

if cousins and a fit ball fire in addition to BJ, dal, hayes all gel as a midfield

if gardiner gets back to his early career fitness and allows us to play two ruckman

if kosi and allen stand up to allow roo to run around with only one man

if gary, eddy, steven, howard start putting that potential into actual performances

if mission can keep the squad healthy AND EXTRA FIT

if the hawks and cats have bad years form or injury wise (only took a year or two for the eagles to slide)

My argument has always been that your bottom 6 get you to pelims and grand finals, the top 6 win those finals. If this is the case, then who knows

[fingers]

We're not far off it.... we need the sort of injection in our midfield that Cousins could provide, a bit of recruiting fortune, returns from injury to go smoothly, and for some of our youngsters to take another step.

Also I'm keen to see what another full pre-season under Misson can produce, by some accounts last year was more a case of damage control, and this year they expect to work on core strength.... I'm hoping we'll be harder and fitter than ever.

since when has a team mentioned their fitness cordinator so much though???

it sounds like denial of the masses that it is not injury that has curtailed our impact but its actually been talent and the inability to turn it on when counted

Since his name was David Misson.

Most things you do are 80% preparation... we have the talent.

Dismissing our inconsistency and fade-outs as merely because we're 'soft' is too simplistic.

I think/hope 2009 is the year we'll really begin to reap the full benefits of the Misson appointment.

I agree - I think we talk about it so much because under the previous regime we were starved of anything really impactful.

[The Saintsational Man]

It is a hard question to answer because of the very basis that might push up to that next level and thats the "if's"

if maguire gets fit and firing, will release raph clarke and chips to play a more attacking role

if baker gets his knee right and can replace the injured dempster

if raph clarke continues his finals form into the H & A arena,

if gilbert develops into a replacement full back for maxy

if cousins and a fit ball fire in addition to BJ, dal, hayes all gel as a midfield

if gardiner gets back to his early career fitness and allows us to play two ruckman

if kosi and allen stand up to allow roo to run around with only one man

if gary, eddy, steven, howard start putting that potential into actual performances

if mission can keep the squad healthy AND EXTRA FIT

if the hawks and cats have bad years form or injury wise (only took a year or two for the eagles to slide)

My argument has always been that your bottom 6 get you to pelims and grand finals, the top 6 win those finals. If this is the case, then who knows

WOW!!!

That's a lot of "IF's".....

[WayneJudson42]

We're not far off it.... we need the sort of injection in our midfield that Cousins could provide, a bit of recruiting fortune, returns from injury to go smoothly, and for some of our youngsters to take another step.

Also I'm keen to see what another full pre-season under Misson can produce, by some accounts last year was more a case of damage control, and this year they expect to work on core strength.... I'm hoping we'll be harder and fitter than ever.

since when has a team mentioned their fitness cordinator so much though???

it sounds like denial of the masses that it is not injury that has curtailed our impact but its actually been talent and the inability to turn it on when counted

Since his name was David Misson.

Most things you do are 80% preparation... we have the talent.

Dismissing our inconsistency and fade-outs as merely because we're 'soft' is too simplistic.

I think/hope 2009 is the year we'll really begin to reap the full benefits of the Misson appointment.

I agree - I think we talk about it so much because under the previous regime we were starved of anything really impactful.

I recall when Aussie Jones had all those hammy's saying that whatever changes you make, it takes a few years to have total effect.

[fingers]

We're not far off it.... we need the sort of injection in our midfield that Cousins could provide, a bit of recruiting fortune, returns from injury to go smoothly, and for some of our youngsters to take another step.

Also I'm keen to see what another full pre-season under Misson can produce, by some accounts last year was more a case of damage control, and this year they expect to work on core strength.... I'm hoping we'll be harder and fitter than ever.

since when has a team mentioned their fitness cordinator so much though???

it sounds like denial of the masses that it is not injury that has curtailed our impact but its actually been talent and the inability to turn it on when counted

Since his name was David Misson.

Most things you do are 80% preparation... we have the talent.

Dismissing our inconsistency and fade-outs as merely because we're 'soft' is too simplistic.

I think/hope 2009 is the year we'll really begin to reap the full benefits of the Misson appointment.

I agree - I think we talk about it so much because under the previous regime we were starved of anything really impactful.

I recall when Aussie Jones had all those hammy's saying that whatever changes you make, it takes a few years to have total effect.

Correct - I am working with the Australian Kendo team preparing for the world champs next Aug. We have been on the journey for 18 months and are only now seeing real changes to core strength and infury resilience.

[Teflon]

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't we beat the Hawks the first time we played them this year?

The reality is there's not much between the teams as a 5-minute-memory would have you believe.

Give us a good run with injury and half our best 22 in career best form and I have no doubt we can beat any team in it. The enviorment in the past has't been condusive to getting those two right so you would hope that the efforts gone into fixing them will start delivering results.

Thats akin to saying Collingwood beat Geelong by 89 pts....they aint far off it...

Simplistic at best.

As others point out - look over a whole season and you see the difference between Hawks/Cats and us - heck even Dogs accounted for us easy (after giving us a 5 goal start) and had a much more consistent year.

There's a gap for sure - add to that those other sides coming up and its not inconceivableto see us really slip. Its why we need to expect more from the youngsters this year and plasyers like Raph/Gwilts and co had better shine cause we haven invested heavily with time into them for sporadic results.

I note Geelong today are upping the pressure on Hawkins 3rd year in to help boltster their fwd line.....its a ruthless game but we just have to be shrewd or we end up like so many sides languishing mid table, some good days (whens stars shine) but never really in the hunt.

[bigcarl]

I note Geelong today are upping the pressure on Hawkins 3rd year in to help boltster their fwd line.

that's recognition that their lack of a gun key forward really cost them.

they had plenty of the ball in the grand final and plenty of chances, but couldn't find someone to actually stand up, take a mark and kick a goal.

we're lucky to have riewoldt. that's obviously a lot better than having no top key forward.

but hawthorn, with franklin and roughhead kicking 190 between them in 2008, trounces everyone for firepower.

while all opposition resources and paranoia go into covering them, lesser lights such as dew or williams bob up with multiple goals.

we need to find a key forward other than roo who will demand the ball and kick some goals.

not kosi, who is second ruck.

possibly not allen, who kicked just 23 at a lesser level this season and (if the mail is accurate) might not be ready until the second part of 2009 anyway.

probably not gwilt, who kicked just three goals for 2008 despite spending quite some time up forward.

certainly not the delisted c. gardiner or ferguson.

it needs to be a very good and very accomplished footballer.

[JeffDunne]

Thats akin to saying Collingwood beat Geelong by 89 pts....they aint far off it...

They aren't far off it. Well no more than most other teams in the 8.

Simplistic at best.

Actually it's not.

As others point out - look over a whole season and you see the difference between Hawks/Cats and us - heck even Dogs accounted for us easy (after giving us a 5 goal start) and had a much more consistent year..

I seem to remember someone getting all upset because somebody else thought we were lucky to finish 4th.

We had a horrible season for the most part. Very few of our players (especially our better players) played anywhere near their best consistently.

But still we weren't far off it even if we were lucky to finish with the double chance.

There's more chance of us breaching that gap by getting improvement from what we already have than there is by what we can add between now and Christmas.

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Thats akin to saying Collingwood beat Geelong by 89 pts....they aint far off it...

They aren't far off it. Well no more than most other teams in the 8.

Simplistic at best.

Actually it's not.

As others point out - look over a whole season and you see the difference between Hawks/Cats and us - heck even Dogs accounted for us easy (after giving us a 5 goal start) and had a much more consistent year..

I seem to remember someone getting all upset because somebody else thought we were lucky to finish 4th.

We had a horrible season for the most part. Very few of our players (especially our better players) played anywhere near their best consistently.

But still we weren't far off it even if we were lucky to finish with the double chance.

There's more chance of us breaching that gap by getting improvement from what we already have than there is by what we can add between now and Christmas.

not far off it??? numerically maybe but if you look at the finals losses i believe that sums up where we are at presently

we made 4th wow...blew the chance for a home prelim...then was demolished against the hawks

so how are not far off it?

[Armoooo]

Thats akin to saying Collingwood beat Geelong by 89 pts....they aint far off it...

They aren't far off it. Well no more than most other teams in the 8.

Simplistic at best.

Actually it's not.

As others point out - look over a whole season and you see the difference between Hawks/Cats and us - heck even Dogs accounted for us easy (after giving us a 5 goal start) and had a much more consistent year..

I seem to remember someone getting all upset because somebody else thought we were lucky to finish 4th.

We had a horrible season for the most part. Very few of our players (especially our better players) played anywhere near their best consistently.

But still we weren't far off it even if we were lucky to finish with the double chance.

There's more chance of us breaching that gap by getting improvement from what we already have than there is by what we can add between now and Christmas.

not far off it??? numerically maybe but if you look at the finals losses i believe that sums up where we are at presently

we made 4th wow...blew the chance for a home prelim...then was demolished against the hawks

so how are not far off it?

We are in the same position as we have been for ages, not far off it, just being held back by injuries... In a dream world we would have had a fit Ball, Hayes, Maguire, Baker and Dempster...

Add those guys in with a fit Cousins next year, do you think we are still 10 goals off the two better sides?

In: Ball, Maguire, Baker, Dempster, Cousins
Out: Fiora, Eddy, Gwilt, McQualter, Harvey

As well as a fit Hayes not having to do all the grunt work by himself...

[Saints Premiers 2008]

Thats akin to saying Collingwood beat Geelong by 89 pts....they aint far off it...

They aren't far off it. Well no more than most other teams in the 8.

Simplistic at best.

Actually it's not.

As others point out - look over a whole season and you see the difference between Hawks/Cats and us - heck even Dogs accounted for us easy (after giving us a 5 goal start) and had a much more consistent year..

I seem to remember someone getting all upset because somebody else thought we were lucky to finish 4th.

We had a horrible season for the most part. Very few of our players (especially our better players) played anywhere near their best consistently.

But still we weren't far off it even if we were lucky to finish with the double chance.

There's more chance of us breaching that gap by getting improvement from what we already have than there is by what we can add between now and Christmas.

not far off it??? numerically maybe but if you look at the finals losses i believe that sums up where we are at presently

we made 4th wow...blew the chance for a home prelim...then was demolished against the hawks

so how are not far off it?

We are in the same position as we have been for ages, not far off it, just being held back by injuries... In a dream world we would have had a fit Ball, Hayes, Maguire, Baker and Dempster...

Add those guys in with a fit Cousins next year, do you think we are still 10 goals off the two better sides?

In: Ball, Maguire, Baker, Dempster, Cousins
Out: Fiora, Eddy, Gwilt, McQualter, Harvey

As well as a fit Hayes not having to do all the grunt work by himself...

ball - will have his usual injury throughout the year, maguire - who knows, baker - who knows, dempster - coming back from a knee (and no dont use bj as an example of a textbook knee reco/comeback), cousins - who knows

there we have it, gone through the list entirely there and its all a bunch of what if's that are not just form related, its either major injury or other major problems