Unhealthy reliance on Riewoldt

[InkerSaint]

It seems to be the opinion of a few that the Saints have been "carried" by Nick Riewoldt, especially in the last half of last season. When Roo lifts, the Saints have a good game, and ditto for the converse.

In terms of lone "star" forwards, Roo's company is (arguably) Pavlich, Fevola, Richo, and Lloyd. All of whom are in teams that did worse than the Saints last year. Considering this performance, isn't it a bit unfair to charge the team as "one-dimensional" or overly reliant?

There's no doubt that Nick is a stellar player, and it's just a fact that he is going to impose himself on the game. And, for example, is he that much better than Matthew Pavlich? And if not, what does that say about the rest of the Saints (or Freo...)?

[Saints94]

Fev doesn't have any one to back him up either Carlton's second best goalkicker was Betts with 25 goals and he missed the last 5 games of the season

[InkerSaint]

Here's another thing: the two-key-forwards setup that everyone is clamouring for has only really been deployed effectively by two teams - Hawthorn and Brisbane.

The rest of the comp spreads their reliance on other setups including healthy contributions from the midfield. Perhaps this is a role that Goddard and S. Fisher are intended to step up to...

[Saints94]

Here's another thing: the two-key-forwards setup that everyone is clamouring for has only really been deployed effectively by two teams - Hawthorn and Brisbane.

The rest of the comp spreads their reliance on other setups including healthy contributions from the midfield. Perhaps this is a role that Goddard and S. Fisher are intended to step up to...

I don't want either of them playing up forward I want them playing in the midfield

[Saints94]

Here's another thing: the two-key-forwards setup that everyone is clamouring for has only really been deployed effectively by two teams - Hawthorn and Brisbane.

The rest of the comp spreads their reliance on other setups including healthy contributions from the midfield. Perhaps this is a role that Goddard and S. Fisher are intended to step up to...

But your are right in the two forward setups for Brisbane and Hawthorn.... Kozi needs to stand up and deliver in 2009 so we can be in that elite group

[Solar]

the two key forward only works when both are in great form (ie hawks).

Most teams have a in form key forward, a workhorse big bodied second tall, some very clever flankers and lead up mid forwards and goals from small forwards and midfielders.

Currently we have a very good key forward (roo), a reasonable second tall forward (kosi) and effective small forwards (milne and schneider).

What we are missing is some clever half forwards or lead up fowards and some midfield goals.

A midfield that includes BJ and chips can add to the midfield goals. cahill, lynch and hynds were drafted to build on our medium forward collection.

[Saints94]

the two key forward only works when both are in great form (ie hawks).

Most teams have a in form key forward, a workhorse big bodied second tall, some very clever flankers and lead up mid forwards and goals from small forwards and midfielders.

Currently we have a very good key forward (roo), a reasonable second tall forward (kosi) and effective small forwards (milne and schneider).

What we are missing is some clever half forwards or lead up fowards and some midfield goals.

A midfield that includes BJ and chips can add to the midfield goals. cahill, lynch and hynds were drafted to build on our medium forward collection.

Our forward line looks so good on paper pity only 2 can stand up most of the time

[Solar]

the two key forward only works when both are in great form (ie hawks).

Most teams have a in form key forward, a workhorse big bodied second tall, some very clever flankers and lead up mid forwards and goals from small forwards and midfielders.

Currently we have a very good key forward (roo), a reasonable second tall forward (kosi) and effective small forwards (milne and schneider).

What we are missing is some clever half forwards or lead up fowards and some midfield goals.

A midfield that includes BJ and chips can add to the midfield goals. cahill, lynch and hynds were drafted to build on our medium forward collection.

Our forward line looks so good on paper pity only 2 can stand up most of the time

totally disagree that it looks good on paper...

we miss gehrig whose lead up play allowed riewoldt to compete 1-1 and destroy his defender with endless run. Kosi has not stood up and allens injury was unfortunate. We have drafted several players who can help our forward line but to expect any of the 18 year olds to make a difference is clutching at straws. The key will be in the midfield, get more inside ball and have our dangerous users where they can kick goals (chips, BJ etc.) will give us a short term fix. Long term I believe our forward line will develop nicely.

[Saints94]

CHF: B.Goddard N.Riewoldt X.Clarke

FF: S.Milne J.Kozi A.Schnieder

Now that forward line has huge talent

[bigcarl]

In terms of lone "star" forwards, Roo's company is (arguably) Pavlich, Fevola, Richo, and Lloyd. All of whom are in teams that did worse than the Saints last year. Considering this performance, isn't it a bit unfair to charge the team as "one-dimensional" or overly reliant?

compared to the benchmark team and reigning premier (and the team we'll probably have to beat to win the flag in 2009) I'm afraid we are one dimensional.

they have two gun key marking forwards who kicked 190 between them in 2008.

we have one who kicked 70-odd and another who managed about 30 when he wasn't rucking.

it's not that we are bad in comparison to many other teams. it's just that the benchmark team smashes us (and everyone else) for firepower.

the knock-on effect is that everyone playing hawthorn is so paranoid about stopping both buddy and roughhead, lesser lights such as williams slip under the guard.

[sunsaint]

hmmm, successful teams need a competitive HF + FF combo.
WE were never more formidable when Lockett and Loewe were firing or Roo and Gehrig were kicking 12+ between them.
And I would argue that Lloyd has Lucas, Richo has Brown. The pussies combine Johnson and Mooney, Hawks Fanklin and Roughead, pretty tough forwardlines to combat.
As for carlton and Fev, yes he kicked a lone hand 99, but the team as a whole kicked 20 less goals than us last year, so their ability to score is pretty good.
And heaven forbid that we would be in Freo's position, Pavlich IS freo. I saw him playing ruck at times last year.

If the point is we are too reliant on Roo, that needs to change, then yes.
The trouble is StKilda has never had goal kicking on-ballers, everyone knows that to stop us kicking goals, just double team Roo.
So where will the change come from, Kosi becoming a FF, a sudden change in the ability of the current stock or the '08/09 kids?

[jays]

yeh think your right bj needs to go forward this year and give him a hand imo

[bigcarl]

The trouble is StKilda has never had goal kicking on-ballers, everyone knows that to stop us kicking goals, just double team Roo.

exactly

[Saints94]

If Kozi kicks a big of 50-60 we will be laughing

[PJ]

I don't get why when Roo is being double teamed we don't use him as a decoy to pull 2 defenders out of the space in front of goal. It's actually infuriating when our other forwards go AWOL.

Mids need to know at times to go where Roo isn't if he's marked heavily.

[bigcarl]

I don't get why when Roo is being double teamed we don't use him as a decoy to pull 2 defenders out of the space in front of goal. It's actually infuriating when our other forwards go AWOL. Mids need to know at times to go where Roo isn't if he's marked heavily.

our guys streaming forward can see nothing but the big blond superstar, unfortunately ... not even the big sticks.

[Legendary]

Forget 60 or 70 goals.

If Kosi kicks 40 we'll be laughing all the way to a grand final.

[plugger66]

Forget 60 or 70 goals.

If Kosi kicks 40 we'll be laughing all the way to a grand final.

So ten more than last season and we probably win 5 more games. Must be very important goals.

If he plays mostly forward 40 goals isnt anywhere near enough.

[PJ]

Correct bigcarl that's why we need mids that can look up and hit targets or make better calls on where to go

1/Goddard
2/Ball
3/S.Fisher
4/Dal Santo - half forward that moves towards the centre

Gram if he can just steady a bit before the kick. Breaks the lines beautifully but doesn't decelarate and staedy just before the kick. Watch McLeod of Adelaide do this.


Not sure about
1/Armo
2/Steven

[WayneJudson42]

hmmm, successful teams need a competitive HF + FF combo.
WE were never more formidable when Lockett and Loewe were firing or Roo and Gehrig were kicking 12+ between them.
And I would argue that Lloyd has Lucas, Richo has Brown. The pussies combine Johnson and Mooney, Hawks Fanklin and Roughead, pretty tough forwardlines to combat.
As for carlton and Fev, yes he kicked a lone hand 99, but the team as a whole kicked 20 less goals than us last year, so their ability to score is pretty good.
And heaven forbid that we would be in Freo's position, Pavlich IS freo. I saw him playing ruck at times last year.

If the point is we are too reliant on Roo, that needs to change, then yes.
The trouble is StKilda has never had goal kicking on-ballers, everyone knows that to stop us kicking goals, just double team Roo.
So where will the change come from, Kosi becoming a FF, a sudden change in the ability of the current stock or the '08/09 kids?

Agree. Loewe played further up the ground which helped create space for Lockett. One thing though, they hardly both ever kicked bags on the same day. I'm still p1ssed that Sheldon didn't swap them around against the Dogs in 92 final.

Also agree on Lloyd. Bombers at their best when he played in tandem with Lucas.

That's why I'd prefer Kosi at CHF to play a role like Lowew did, and leave Roo at FF.

What we need is a 3rd FWD who can muscle the opp and help create space.

[PJ]

What we need is a 3rd FWD who can muscle the opp and help create space.

So who are the options

Apart from newbies

J Gwilt
M Maguire

S. Fisher???

[WayneJudson42]

What we need is a 3rd FWD who can muscle the opp and help create space.

So who are the options

Apart from newbies

J Gwilt
M Maguire

S. Fisher???

Definitely not Fisher. Gwilt or Goose if we can't slot Goose back in at CHB.

If Gwilt can play every game with the same intensity as he did against Port, then he'd be ideal. Throw in 30 goals, and even better.

It's also why I'd like to see Gilbo up fwd coz had has a good "don't argue" in him.

Given the way the game has changed, the question is about who'll make a better CHB... Goose or Blake?

[Longwayfromhome]

Let's have a good look at the new guys and see what our drafting team has given us.
Kosi is not a full forward and we are only fooling ourselves by assuming he will line up in that spot in 09. Give Gwilt, Cahill, McEvoy, Dawson or Goddard a go. No good having our elite players running through the mid field if there is no one to give it to.
Opposition sides are more than happy to put two or three players on Roo and know that they can do so safely. Mid fielders have shown an unhealthy non interest in kicking goals in the past few years. This must change. Fisher, Goddard, Joey, Gram and Dal Santo should be all aiming for the big sticks once inside fifty. If they can't, well find another sport.
Joey has stated in his recent interview that there are at least three draft choices who have bodies ready for AFL footy. Get them in the side and give em a go. Draft selections ooze forward capabilities. We need them now, not in two or three years time.

[sunsaint]

I don't get why when Roo is being double teamed we don't use him as a decoy to pull 2 defenders out of the space in front of goal. It's actually infuriating when our other forwards go AWOL.

Mids need to know at times to go where Roo isn't if he's marked heavily.

they do, they kick it high to Milne

[bigcarl]

If Gwilt can play every game with the same intensity as he did against Port, then he'd be ideal. Throw in 30 goals, and even better.

It's also why I'd like to see Gilbo up fwd coz had has a good "don't argue" in him.

as i said in another recent thread, though i like gwilt as a player i'm not sold on him as a forward.

he played quite a few matches forward in 2008 for very little impact on the scoreboard ... three goals i think it was.

so if he's to play there i'd like to see much more in the way of goals.

same goes for eddy.

in fact gwilt, allen and eddy, three of our forwards in september 2008, kicked just 11 goals between last season.