Gilbert vs Gardiner

[saintsRrising]

Gilbert vs Gardiner...

Charlie that is....

I think one thing that 2008 showed was that 3 tallish forwards can work well...as long as two of them are not lumberers. If your talls cannot run and chase and provide forward defensive pressure then you are ata big disadvantage as soon as you lose control of the ball.

Todays football requires virtually all of you players to be very mobile...running machines.

It seemed to me that often in 2008 that when Charlie played that our team balance and structure improved. Having Charlie playing in a similar mobile forward role to Roo provided us with another option to go forward...while also gaining support in the midfield when numbers flooded back.

Unfortunately for the Saints though Charlie while being better than VFL level...was just not quite good enough at AFL level.

Allen was looked at...but has had a horrid run with injuries.

Hence to me what Gilbert is being looked at as our third marking forward.,,,and Gilbert has many plusses that Allen does not possess.

He is very mobile with very good pace....and is a very good tackler.

3 talls in Kosi, Roo and Gilbert should work together well...complemented with the smalls of Milne and Schneider..with a resting mid on rotation.

Kosis pack marking ability is good combination with the two very mobile tall forwards of Roo and Gilbert. having Gilbert working hard also easy the load on roo making him more dangerous.


So the question for me is can Gilbert be a better forward than Charlie???

If he can then that will be one factor in making us a more competitive team in 2009.

[plugger66]

Gilbert vs Gardiner...

Charlie that is....

I think one thing that 2008 showed was that 3 tallish forwards can work well...as long as two of them are not lumberers. If your talls cannot run and chase and provide forward defensive pressure then you are ata big disadvantage as soon as you lose control of the ball.

Todays football requires virtually all of you players to be very mobile...running machines.

It seemed to me that often in 2008 that when Charlie played that our team balance and structure improved. Having Charlie playing in a similar mobile forward role to Roo provided us with another option to go forward...while also gaining support in the midfield when numbers flooded back.

Unfortunately for the Saints though Charlie while being better than VFL level...was just not quite good enough at AFL level.

Allen was looked at...but has had a horrid run with injuries.

Hence to me what Gilbert is being looked at as our third marking forward.,,,and Gilbert has many plusses that Allen does not possess.

He is very mobile with very good pace....and is a very good tackler.

3 talls in Kosi, Roo and Gilbert should work together well...complemented with the smalls of Milne and Schneider..with a resting mid on rotation.

Kosis pack marking ability is good combination with the two very mobile tall forwards of Roo and Gilbert. having Gilbert working hard also easy the load on roo making him more dangerous.


So the question for me is can Gilbert be a better forward than Charlie???

If he can then that will be one factor in making us a more competitive team in 2009.

If he is not better we are wasting our time. I think he may be slightly better but I also think he is a far better backman but I would rather try Gilbert in the forward line than waste the talents of BJ and Chips who are clearly better in other positions.

[Cairnsman]

One of the things that Gilbert has over Charlie is ticker. Charlie appeared timid for mine and just couldn't get himself into or out of trouble.

One question I have is are we robbing Peter to pay Paul?

[saintsRrising]

If he is not better we are wasting our time. I think he may be slightly better but I also think he is a far better backman but I would rather try Gilbert in the forward line than waste the talents of BJ and Chips who are clearly better in other positions.

Well he is definately a better backman that Charlie...

But can he be a better forward????

Like you I prefer to keep BJ and Sam elsewhere.

[saintsRrising]

One of the things that Gilbert has over Charlie is ticker. Charlie appeared timid for mine and just couldn't get himself into or out of trouble.

One question I have is are we robbing Peter to pay Paul?

Perhaps....but I think we have not one Paul ( a third tall forward/markinng HHF), but that we havea number of Peters.


I think we have other options down back on the flank. Raph standing up late last year will hopefully be continued. Sam and BJ are other taller flankers (on rotation). Dempster later in the year as well.


And that Gilbert needs to build up more before he can play FB week in week out..

[saintsRrising]

One of the things that Gilbert has over Charlie is ticker. Charlie appeared timid for mine and just couldn't get himself into or out of trouble.

Yes I think that Gilbert has more of a mean streak..and is a bit more aggressive.

[Cairnsman]

One of the things that Gilbert has over Charlie is ticker. Charlie appeared timid for mine and just couldn't get himself into or out of trouble.

Yes I think that Gilbert has more of a mean streak..and is a bit more aggressive.

The other interesting attribute that Gilbert has is a side-step, ala Rugby League style. I flew down for the Carlton game in 2007 and I can still remember seeing him side-step in congestion and it just turned the Carlton players inside out. From where I was sitting in the stands it looked sublime and I remember saying to my brother at the time that I wouldn't mind betting that he had something to do with Rugby League and sure enough it turned out he played the game as a junior.

He does seem to have an elusiveness about him in a pack for a tall guy and maybe the coaches see a bit of freak in him. I wonder what it is that they've seen to want to trial him up forward, is it the elusiveness and agility for a big guy? has he got a nose for the goals? is he quick? Can he take a screamer or is it all of the above?

[Sobraz]

One of the things that Gilbert has over Charlie is ticker. Charlie appeared timid for mine and just couldn't get himself into or out of trouble.

One question I have is are we robbing Peter to pay Paul?

nail on head...

[bigcarl]

So the question for me is can Gilbert be a better forward than Charlie?.

my big criticism of charlie was that he didn't kick enough goals.

same goes (from the limited evidence of last year) for gwilt and eddie.

from the little we've seen of gilbert in the forward line he seems to be able to at least contribute on the scoreboard.

he's quick on the lead, isn't a bad overhead mark and is an awkward but effective kick. importantly, he's no mug when it hits the ground.

with kosi destined to spend at least some of his time as a follower, we're short a marking option and would again be too reliant on riewoldt.

so in general, i applaud the initiative.


hf: dal santo, riewoldt, milne
f: schneider, gilbert, kosi

or

hf: dal santo, kosi, gilbert
f: schneider, riewoldt, milne


doesn't look too bad a structure.

however i am, as ever, concerned about what the game plan will do to that structure.

if gilbert doesn't work out, there are other possibilities such as bj, raph or sam fisher.

when we needed a spark up forward in the nab match against brisbane, ross turned to bj, who responded with a couple of quick goals. so that possibility is obviously in his mind somewhere.

[Shaggy]

IMO Gilbert is not a forward and he will soon enough be in the back or wing after the experiment.

But he is certainly a promising footballer who IMO will become one of our elite.

[jackal]

Gilbert is much better on his defensive skills than Charlie. More likely to cause a turnover and make a contest.

Gilbert has also shown his strengths and weaknesses in defense. Although great against the Pies a good medium forward also Williams (Hawks) and Johnson (Cats) chopped him up. He will never be able to match it with these boys so best played on a half forward flank or even a wing for mine.

[saint66au]

His use in defence is a moot point.....all 18 players on the ground will be used in defence during games now it seems

THe only question is how far forward he runs when we get posession..and where he stands when the ball is bounced in the middle

[JABBER]

gardiner filled in the hole for one year played some good games but also went missing Now Gilbert should play at CHB until the Goose recovers his fitness and form We picked up T lynch as lead up forward also J Allen can play that Role when he comes back Goddard' S fisher and R clarke can play that role and J gwilt in last year semi final against collingwood played that role you can play Gilbert in most positions but running straight at the ball his his strengh

[Spinner]

Gilbert = Backman

[bigcarl]

His use in defence is a moot point.....all 18 players on the ground will be used in defence during games now it seems

THe only question is how far forward he runs when we get posession..and where he stands when the ball is bounced in the middle

it's depressing if that is what we have to look forward to this season.

not a fan of this basketball-style game.

i could live with it being tedious and dull to watch if it bought us success, but it hasn't improved our results one iota.

in the meantime other teams with less defensive agendas (hawthorn and geelong) have sailed past us.

i'm hoping that we at least scale it back a bit and become more of a free scoring side ... with a forward line.

[spert]

Gilbert would need a monumental improvement in form over last season before I would give him a game.

[PJ]

in the meantime other teams with less defensive agendas (hawthorn and geelong) have sailed past us.

Don't entirely agree with this. Hawthorn invented the rolling defensive zone they don't have too many stars back there so they work as a team to back each other up - almost every other club is trying to either copy or negate this.

What the Hawks do have is a very effect forward line to complement their pack/zone defensive style.

We on the other hand don't have the effective forward line and need to find forwards ...quickly.

Those who don't want Gilbert in the forward line could you suggest who will go there. We have way more defenders than forwards and are struggling to find that person to complement Roo & Kosi (Allen is unavailable)

[bigcarl]

in the meantime other teams with less defensive agendas (hawthorn and geelong) have sailed past us.

Don't entirely agree with this.

in general terms hawthorn back themselves to outscore their opponents; we try to limit the damage.

they have a game plan that revolves around moving it quickly to their gun forwards, franklin and roughhead, who form the backbone of the most potent offense in the competition.

between them they kicked 190 last season and if buddy or roughy don't get you williams or someone else will.

they may have a "rolling defensive zone", but i think it accurate and fairly obvious to say they are less defensive than us.

[BackFromUSA]

I like what I saw of Gilbert up forward in the intra club and v Bulldogs

- good mark
- good contesting in the air (manufactured 2 goals this way)
- good leading
- good chasing
- good tackling
- good at ground level

kicked goals from set shots and snaps

could kick 40+ goals a season and create a few more with pressure if played forward

[PJ]

I take your point bigcarl but I guess what I'm saying is it's a matter of them having the players that can move it into the forward 50 faster and with more efficiency to targets that are fast and strong.

When you don't have confidence in your forwards you're going to look defensive.

Add to this we either can't hit targets going forward accurately enough or lack the confidence to take it on.

I regard our rebounding defenders as very attacking (Fisher, Raph, BJ) but once it goes passed centre it breaks down, becomes less attacking and we chip around to find an option. It's why 9 times out of 10 we go for Roo because it's a relatively safe option.

If you mean by "defensive" that we don't have either the vision or the confidence going forward then I agree.

I don't however think that as a team we are content with just holding the opposition out, negating them.

Our forwards need to show more grunt and determination to hold it in then perhaps there'd be more confidence to risk moving it in quickly.

I think our forward line has been dysfunctional since G began to fail and we failed to develop our next forward structure.

[bigcarl]

i agree with most of that and i think the addition of gilbert to the forward line might be a step in the right direction (though if it were me i might have plonked bj at ff).

the thing with hawthorn is that their key forwards are so good that their on ballers have no qualms about going long and direct to a contest. you wouldn't, either, if buddy or roughhead were on the other end of it.

what i don't want to see this season is a repeat of the first half of the brisbane NAB cup game.

we kicked the first goal then put all 18 men behind the ball before brisbane had even scored.

we had no forward line to go to and that's about as defensive as it gets.

[vacuous space]

could kick 40+ goals a season and create a few more with pressure if played forward

If he kicks 40 from a flanker role, he'll be in line for AA. Chapman's career best is 38. Didak's is 41. O'Keefe's is 33. Nathan Brown kicked 50+ in his last two years with the Dogs. Steve Johnson kicked 53 last year. Very few players kick forty who aren't key forwards.

I think Gilbert's more likely to play a role pushing up the ground anyway. So I think there'll be a lot more emphasis on what he sets up (more Didak or O'Keefe than Steve Johnson). If he gets 15-20 touches, 5-8 marks and a goal per game he'll doing extremely well in a very tough role.

[plugger66]

could kick 40+ goals a season and create a few more with pressure if played forward

If he kicks 40 from a flanker role, he'll be in line for AA. Chapman's career best is 38. Didak's is 41. O'Keefe's is 33. Nathan Brown kicked 50+ in his last two years with the Dogs. Steve Johnson kicked 53 last year. Very few players kick forty who aren't key forwards.

I think Gilbert's more likely to play a role pushing up the ground anyway. So I think there'll be a lot more emphasis on what he sets up (more Didak or O'Keefe than Steve Johnson). If he gets 15-20 touches, 5-8 marks and a goal per game he'll doing extremely well in a very tough role.

I was going to say the same thing. If we get 25 goals out of Gilbert for the year that would be great.

[Broodruff]

I think its a great move.

The robbing peter to pay paul is a valid point to make, however - I do believe the backline will be able to function without Gilbo.

From what I remember from last year, the backline was really starting to gel and form not a group of players defending well, but a GROUP defending well. They started to understand and really work with eachother. While you may argue that Gilbert was a part of this - To that I say: With the leadership, understanding and experience of Max and Sammy, I don't think it'll be too hard to get that going with another player - We've got a few to pick from.

With Gilbert up forward I think we have a pretty potent forward line. Which is all well and good to get excited about... But think back a bit - when was the last time we DIDN'T have a potent forward line? We've always had a pretty strong looking forward line on paper - why is it going to be any different putting Gilbert there?

I'll tell you why. Two simple letters.
BJ

We need BJ to push forward. He can be that missing link between the middle of the ground and our forward 50.

Imagine it now. We've rebounded out of defence, pushing up the ground looking promising, in the past we'd get stuck as we start to get into our half of the ground. Our mids would look up and see not a whole lot.

Now? We see the ball in the hands of BJ, he takes a couple of steps, boots the ball a good 50 metres and pin-points Riewoldt/Gilbert/Milne/Anyone with legs and a heartbead on the chest.

Now, while it'd be nice for BJ to set-up every goal we kick, its not realistic. I don't think its too far-fetched to see him rack up a lot of assists, but he's not gong to have his hand in every single one. All that I can hope is that out of seeing this a few times, our other mids start to see exactly how much skill our forwards have and instead of chipping around waiting for a 'sure thing' they'll kick it out in front of our guys and put a little faith in them.


Now, while some of that might be a little wishful, I reakon having Gilbo up forward could be good for a goal or two a game. I also think that having BJ deliver into our forward-line could be good for 3+ goals a game. Now, by that I don't mean extra scoring shots, or adding a straight goal onto any scoreline. I think he'll help with our conversion rate. I think he'll put our guys in better spots with better chances.

[plugger66]

Not sure BJ can kick it to players to add 3+ a game, well actually im sure he cannot. If he was directly invilved in 25 assists for the year that would be great but he isnt going to be involved in 66 assists, not unless he is twice as good as any other player to deliver the ball in the AFL.