Silly Complex Stats. How credible are they?

[Winmar7Fan]

Regularly people on here get into posting debates firing stat comparisons at each other comparing different players from different clubs with everything from efficiency ratings to almost the percentage of oranges they had to 3/4 time.

Besides needing a calculator and a box of panadol on hand how can you compare a players stats to another that are playing in 2 different clubs with different opposition players on two different grounds?

They might both play the same position but one could have played on a Friday night at Etihad with the roof shut and the other on Sunday at Subiaco in pouring rain.

Do all these stats even comparing advantages one team have over another from up to ten years ago really mean much?

Thoughts?

Oh and all replies based on how they tackle the question with the effectiveness of there answers will be given percentage ratings for efficiency.

[Saints43]

The term 'kicking efficiency' has been used extensively this week (in regards to Gram). What is an effective kick?

If a player kicks the ball to Riewoldt and he takes the mark then that's obviously an effective kick.
If the CHB stands on his shoulders and takes mark of the year is that an ineffective kick? If Riewoldt drops a chest mark? If the defender get a fist in from nowhere ala Max? If Riewoldt falls over half way through his lead and doesn't make it to a perfectly weighted kick?

Is there a definition of what each stat means? And do the definitions vary from outlet to outlet?

[Beno88]

The simple version of it is..
An effective kick is a kick in which the team in possession retains possession.
An ineffective kick is when the team in possession turns the ball over to the opposition or the kick goes out of bounds on the full.
Kicks that result in a stoppage, boundary throw in or behind are not regarded as effective or ineffective.

[St Fidelius]

Winmar7Fan

Every coach has access to stats and uses them during game time.

and they would be comparing a players game time, and their disposals and more so there effectiveness as well as their opponents

They don't need a calculator and a box of panadol .......

It's called a COMPUTER.....

[Unforgiven]

I was under the impression that was only ineffective and effective kicks, not a 'neither' category.

I remember hearing or reading something recently along the lines of if a kick goes to a 2 on 1 situations favouring your team, but a mark isn't taken, it is still reguarded effective.

Though would be good to get some defintions, would like to know how the judge kicks.

[Winmar7Fan]

The term 'kicking efficiency' has been used extensively this week (in regards to Gram). What is an effective kick?

If a player kicks the ball to Riewoldt and he takes the mark then that's obviously an effective kick.
If the CHB stands on his shoulders and takes mark of the year is that an ineffective kick? If Riewoldt drops a chest mark? If the defender get a fist in from nowhere ala Max? If Riewoldt falls over half way through his lead and doesn't make it to a perfectly weighted kick?

Is there a definition of what each stat means? And do the definitions vary from outlet to outlet?

Ok Brisbane play 3 games at the Gabba incl Melb & Freo and its raining two of those games. Daniel Merritt doesn't have a goal kicked on him.

St Kilda mean while play their 3 games including Hawthorn and Geelong away in perfect conditions and Fisher keeps Geelong and say Essendon goalless and does a great job keeping Franklin to 1 goal.

Who is the more efficient player?

[Saints43]

The simple version of it is..
An effective kick is a kick in which the team in possession retains possession.
An ineffective kick is when the team in possession turns the ball over to the opposition or the kick goes out of bounds on the full.
Kicks that result in a stoppage, boundary throw in or behind are not regarded as effective or ineffective.

That is simple. Seems too simple to me.

If the receiving player drops a simple chest mark five metres in the clear from his opponent - and his opponent runs away with the ball - then the kick is ineffective? I don't believe that.

[Winmar7Fan]

The term 'kicking efficiency' has been used extensively this week (in regards to Gram). What is an effective kick?

If a player kicks the ball to Riewoldt and he takes the mark then that's obviously an effective kick.
If the CHB stands on his shoulders and takes mark of the year is that an ineffective kick? If Riewoldt drops a chest mark? If the defender get a fist in from nowhere ala Max? If Riewoldt falls over half way through his lead and doesn't make it to a perfectly weighted kick?

Is there a definition of what each stat means? And do the definitions vary from outlet to outlet?

Ok Brisbane play 3 games at the Gabba incl Melb & Freo and its raining two of those games. Daniel Merritt doesn't have a goal kicked on him.

St Kilda mean while play their 3 games including Hawthorn and Geelong away in perfect conditions and Fisher keeps Geelong and say Essendon goalless and does a great job keeping Franklin to 1 goal.

Who is the more efficient player?

Can someone please help the kid out?

Either the question is too hard or he or she's watching the Simpsons or whatever Cartoon it is before their bed time.

[bergholt]

Ok Brisbane play 3 games at the Gabba incl Melb & Freo and its raining two of those games. Daniel Merritt doesn't have a goal kicked on him.

St Kilda mean while play their 3 games including Hawthorn and Geelong away in perfect conditions and Fisher keeps Geelong and say Essendon goalless and does a great job keeping Franklin to 1 goal.

Who is the more efficient player?

your sample size is too small.

attempting to compare two players across teams in this way is fraught. yes, you can say after ten games that ablett averaging 35.2 disposals a game is pretty good, and that he's probably having a better start to the season than peter burgoyne who's averaging 24.9. you've got a big enough sample to say that, at least.

but can you say that goddard's playing slightly better than bartel because he's averaging 27.6 disposals to 27.5? no way.

and as for your question - how is the more efficient player? you can't possibly answer that because that is asking about their entire career. drawing conclusions on someone's entire career from three games is moronic.

[vacuous space]

Silly complex stats aren't all that credible. They're silly. It's in the question!

Champion Data has a definition of kicking efficiency. It's in the back of their book. The majority of kicks are effective.

[St Fidelius]

Silly complex stats aren't all that credible. They're silly. It's in the question!

Champion Data has a definition of kicking efficiency. It's in the back of their book. The majority of kicks are effective.

Yep and you don't need a calculator and a box of panadol to have that access

again, all coaches pay to use those stats and for a very good reason.

It's not what the OP has stated about 10 year old stats are concerned, it's about current stats and the current season stats, with maybe a couple of years as far as opponents are concerned with match up are concerned and their previous opponents.

And again "game time" the players are having in respect to team balance

[vacuous space]

again, all coaches pay to use those stats and for a very good reason.

That's right. Furthermore, the coaches are in consultation as to what is regarded as an effective kick. They changed the criteria at the beginning of last year and I believe they would have done so on the advice of the clubs.

Tackles are a judgement stat as well. The only black and white, straight up and down stats are goals and behinds. Even kicks and handballs seem to vary if you look at a different provider's stats.

Goddard said last night that the stats he looks at are contested possessions and tackles. A smart lad is that Brednon Goddard.

[St Fidelius]

again, all coaches pay to use those stats and for a very good reason.

That's right. Furthermore, the coaches are in consultation as to what is regarded as an effective kick. They changed the criteria at the beginning of last year and I believe they would have done so on the advice of the clubs.

Tackles are a judgement stat as well. The only black and white, straight up and down stats are goals and behinds. Even kicks and handballs seem to vary if you look at a different provider's stats.

Goddard said last night that the stats he looks at are contested possessions and tackles. A smart lad is that Brednon Goddard.

There you go...

Coaches, Players and Fans look at stats...

So the OP stating that

Silly Complex Stats. How credible are they?

are credible, but not what you stated about 10 year old stats, again it's about the current season and the last few, and the Club works with that every time IMO

[Winmar7Fan]

again, all coaches pay to use those stats and for a very good reason.

That's right. Furthermore, the coaches are in consultation as to what is regarded as an effective kick. They changed the criteria at the beginning of last year and I believe they would have done so on the advice of the clubs.

Tackles are a judgement stat as well. The only black and white, straight up and down stats are goals and behinds. Even kicks and handballs seem to vary if you look at a different provider's stats.

Goddard said last night that the stats he looks at are contested possessions and tackles. A smart lad is that Brednon Goddard.

There you go...

Coaches, Players and Fans look at stats...

So the OP stating that

Silly Complex Stats. How credible are they?

are credible, but not what you stated about 10 year old stats, again it's about the current season and the last few, and the Club works with that every time IMO

Inside 50's, outside 50's, hard ball gets, soft ball gets, loose ball gets, contested possessions, uncontested possessions etc etc etc.

Call me old fashioned but I believed all these stats confuse things and a lot of other circumstances contribute to them that aren't taken into account.

Too many people rate players on these stats regardless. Efficiency ratings may show Gram down near the bottom but I'll keep judging with my eyes and I can see who the duds are he is definitely in our top 15.

[St Fidelius]

again, all coaches pay to use those stats and for a very good reason.

That's right. Furthermore, the coaches are in consultation as to what is regarded as an effective kick. They changed the criteria at the beginning of last year and I believe they would have done so on the advice of the clubs.

Tackles are a judgement stat as well. The only black and white, straight up and down stats are goals and behinds. Even kicks and handballs seem to vary if you look at a different provider's stats.

Goddard said last night that the stats he looks at are contested possessions and tackles. A smart lad is that Brednon Goddard.

There you go...

Coaches, Players and Fans look at stats...

So the OP stating that

Silly Complex Stats. How credible are they?

are credible, but not what you stated about 10 year old stats, again it's about the current season and the last few, and the Club works with that every time IMO

Inside 50's, outside 50's, hard ball gets, soft ball gets, loose ball gets, contested possessions, uncontested possessions etc etc etc.

Call me old fashioned but I believed all these stats confuse things and a lot of other circumstances contribute to them that aren't taken into account.

Too many people rate players on these stats regardless. Efficiency ratings may show Gram down near the bottom but I'll keep judging with my eyes and I can see who the duds are he is definitely in our top 15.

So the duds are (from the other thread) your comparison with Blake Clarke and Gwilt...

So are they the so called "duds" that you tried to compare to Gram in the other thread???

Face it...

Gram is down in his disposal effienecy and I hope he improves, but please don't compare him to other players, because he will more than likely not win out..

Stats are an important part of the game and each and every Club use them

[vacuous space]

Efficiency ratings may show Gram down near the bottom but I'll keep judging with my eyes and I can see who the duds are he is definitely in our top 15.

There are a lot of things that tend to hurt players efficiency. Kicking the ball rather than handballing it; getting the ball forward of centre; contested possessions. Gram certainly suffers from the first two. He also makes some really bad decisions with the ball. His decision to have a shot from about 70m out on the weekend was really questionable. He seems to think he's a great shot at goal from distance. He's not. He needs to spot up teammates more often rather than blazing away.

I don't agree with anyone rating Gram down the bottom. His efficiency isn't great or even good, but that's partly explained by having so many I50s. Dal and Joey's efficiency suffers from kicking into the forward line a lot. If he made better decisions, contested harder and made a greater effort at pressuring the opposition, he'd be just about the best player in the league. He's capable of some really special things. He's playing a new role this year, so hopefully over time he'll learn to make better decisions and be a more damaging player.

[Winmar7Fan]

again, all coaches pay to use those stats and for a very good reason.

That's right. Furthermore, the coaches are in consultation as to what is regarded as an effective kick. They changed the criteria at the beginning of last year and I believe they would have done so on the advice of the clubs.

Tackles are a judgement stat as well. The only black and white, straight up and down stats are goals and behinds. Even kicks and handballs seem to vary if you look at a different provider's stats.

Goddard said last night that the stats he looks at are contested possessions and tackles. A smart lad is that Brednon Goddard.

There you go...

Coaches, Players and Fans look at stats...

So the OP stating that

Silly Complex Stats. How credible are they?

are credible, but not what you stated about 10 year old stats, again it's about the current season and the last few, and the Club works with that every time IMO

Inside 50's, outside 50's, hard ball gets, soft ball gets, loose ball gets, contested possessions, uncontested possessions etc etc etc.

Call me old fashioned but I believed all these stats confuse things and a lot of other circumstances contribute to them that aren't taken into account.

Too many people rate players on these stats regardless. Efficiency ratings may show Gram down near the bottom but I'll keep judging with my eyes and I can see who the duds are he is definitely in our top 15.

So the duds are (from the other thread) your comparison with Blake Clarke and Gwilt...

So are they the so called "duds" that you tried to compare to Gram in the other thread???

Face it...

Gram is down in his disposal effienecy and I hope he improves, but please don't compare him to other players, because he will more than likely not win out..

Stats are an important part of the game and each and every Club use them

Ok Duds is probably being a bit harsh because they do give 100 % effort and I admire that and I'm also mellowing as I get older but do you really think comparing him to those players he will not win out?

That's only based on your opinion that is based on what? Stats!!!

So if there was a poll taken to choose from Gwilt, Clarke and Gram for all coaches and experts you think firstly they would need to study their stats and secondly Gram wouldn't be a clear first? Surely the stats don't cloud things that much.

I also believe certain stats are important. Marks, Kicks, Handballs, Tackles, inside 50s, Goals etc.

But dissecting Marks into overhead marks, Chest Marks, contested, uncontested etc is bloody ridiculous.

A player knows if he's off with his kicking as we all can see.
Do they need to be broken down into a hundred categories along with every other possession he had?

[St Fidelius]

Ok Duds is probably being a bit harsh because they do give 100 % effort and I admire that and I'm also mellowing as I get older but do you really think comparing him to those players he will not win out?

That's only based on your opinion that is based on what? Stats!!!

So if there was a poll taken to choose from Gwilt, Clarke and Gram for all coaches and experts you think firstly they would need to study their stats and secondly Gram wouldn't be a clear first? Surely the stats don't cloud things that much.

I also believe certain stats are important. Marks, Kicks, Handballs, Tackles, inside 50s, Goals etc.

But dissecting Marks into overhead marks, Chest Marks, contested, uncontested etc is bloody ridiculous.

A player knows if he's off with his kicking as we all can see.
Do they need to be broken down into a hundred categories along with every other possession he had?

I don't really give a F*** on a poll..

All I stated is that Gram's disposals are down FFS...

You were the one that tried to compare them with other players and for some reason you rejected stats in comparison to the players you mentioned ....

AGAIN FOR THE LAST TIME!

I think Gram's effective disposals are way down, and he needs to improve on that area...

To compare the players that you mentioned that have a better disposal efficiency this season and then trying to compare Blake to Hayes is foolish IMO...

Just look what I have stated, and All I say is that Gram needs to improve on his disposals ...

[starsign]

Who was the clever person that coined the phrase

"There are Lies, Damn Lies then Statistics"?

says it all really!

[Winmar7Fan]

Ok Duds is probably being a bit harsh because they do give 100 % effort and I admire that and I'm also mellowing as I get older but do you really think comparing him to those players he will not win out?

That's only based on your opinion that is based on what? Stats!!!

So if there was a poll taken to choose from Gwilt, Clarke and Gram for all coaches and experts you think firstly they would need to study their stats and secondly Gram wouldn't be a clear first? Surely the stats don't cloud things that much.

I also believe certain stats are important. Marks, Kicks, Handballs, Tackles, inside 50s, Goals etc.

But dissecting Marks into overhead marks, Chest Marks, contested, uncontested etc is bloody ridiculous.

A player knows if he's off with his kicking as we all can see.
Do they need to be broken down into a hundred categories along with every other possession he had?

I don't really give a F*** on a poll..

All I stated is that Gram's disposals are down FFS...

You were the one that tried to compare them with other players and for some reason you rejected stats in comparison to the players you mentioned ....

AGAIN FOR THE LAST TIME!

I think Gram's effective disposals are way down, and he needs to improve on that area...

To compare the players that you mentioned that have a better disposal efficiency this season and then trying to compare Blake to Hayes is foolish IMO...

Just look what I have stated, and All I say is that Gram needs to improve on his disposals ...

No s##t Einstein no need to look at his stats. We all know that.

That wasn't what it was about you showed the comparisons of his lower efficiency rate to the other 3 to categorise them which IMO is foolish AND narrow minded.

All I'm going to say is at the end of the day I think he has less to be concerned about than the other three with their Impressive efficiency rates.

[St Fidelius]

Ok Duds is probably being a bit harsh because they do give 100 % effort and I admire that and I'm also mellowing as I get older but do you really think comparing him to those players he will not win out?

That's only based on your opinion that is based on what? Stats!!!

So if there was a poll taken to choose from Gwilt, Clarke and Gram for all coaches and experts you think firstly they would need to study their stats and secondly Gram wouldn't be a clear first? Surely the stats don't cloud things that much.

I also believe certain stats are important. Marks, Kicks, Handballs, Tackles, inside 50s, Goals etc.

But dissecting Marks into overhead marks, Chest Marks, contested, uncontested etc is bloody ridiculous.

A player knows if he's off with his kicking as we all can see.
Do they need to be broken down into a hundred categories along with every other possession he had?

I don't really give a F*** on a poll..

All I stated is that Gram's disposals are down FFS...

You were the one that tried to compare them with other players and for some reason you rejected stats in comparison to the players you mentioned ....

AGAIN FOR THE LAST TIME!

I think Gram's effective disposals are way down, and he needs to improve on that area...

To compare the players that you mentioned that have a better disposal efficiency this season and then trying to compare Blake to Hayes is foolish IMO...

Just look what I have stated, and All I say is that Gram needs to improve on his disposals ...

No s##t Einstein no need to look at his stats. We all know that.

That wasn't what it was about you showed the comparisons of his lower efficiency rate to the other 3 to categorise them which IMO is foolish AND narrow minded.

All I'm going to say is at the end of the day I think he has less to be concerned about than the other three with their Impressive efficiency rates.

You were the one that started this thread..

STATS matter FW...

Why the F*** did you start this thread in then first place??

You are in the wrong thread..

This thread is a waste of bandwith, thanks to the OP...