Backline - who fits where?

[wallbanger]

Just a quick post on the backline, which may have been canvassed already, maybe not.

Now that Max is back, it makes it difficult to fit the backline players in. Yesterday was a prime example of Gilbert's importance - his run and (surprisingly after his early games in his career!) his disposal are essential to have streaming out of defence. When you look at yesterdays back 6, the actual disposal skills of Max, Blake, Raph Clarke and Baker are not sparkling, and Fish seems to be in a slight hole at the moment too. Zac has been a revelation, and where early on in the season he would've been the one with his head on the block when Max returned, there is no doubt he has deservedly cemented his place.

With Gilbert coming back in next week, I wonder what the best balance is? For mine, I think Blake has to be the one to move to the bench, to fill holes as they appear on game day with the various match ups. Whilst he tries hard (as he has done for many years) and can play a solid run-with role, in today's high possession game I don't think his skills or decision making are up to scratch. PLus, I think the biggest negtaive of his is that he gives away too many unneccessary holding-type, panicky free kicks in the forward 50, which you cannot afford. Good as a fill-in, but not up to it when you consider the other options in my opinion. Plus the better teams will allow the play to go through him because they know he is dodgy, a bit like they do with Max sometimes.

Raph is the obvious one to go out for Gilbert - he has lost his confidence again, seems a mile away from the player he was in last year's final against Collingwood.

Not trying to be negative at all - just trying to work out what the best balance is.

Is Matty Maguire even of the mix for down back? Seems his only chance now is as a forward, used as a foil but even then how do you fit him in?

Nice quandry to have....

[Otiman]

It will depend who we are playing on a week to week basis

[saintsRrising]

My only concern with the backline is that Baker is a bit out of form.

He is our one small defender......as CJ is an on-ball tagger.

Raph is out of form (no where near his 08 finals form)...but we have many options for the flanks....Sam, Gilbert, BJ, Ray, Gram, Blake.


Miles???? Though not this week.. But he may well in time be our replacement for Bakes.

However Bakes adds that toughness/aggression that many of our other players lack...and these qualities are qualities that you want ina finals team.

[saintjake]

dawson max fisher
gilbo goose goddard

That right there, is a premiership defensive unit.
Goose dawson and max stay at home.
Gilbo fisher and goddard produce the run.
With fisher and goddard still able to cut across in front of packs
Also still have the ability to put ray or gram down there and release goddard giblo or fisher up the ground
Cats forwards don’t stand a chance against this

[james rose]

dawson max fisher
gilbo goose goddard

That right there, is a premiership defensive unit.
Goose dawson and max stay at home.
Gilbo fisher and goddard produce the run.
With fisher and goddard still able to cut across in front of packs
Also still have the ability to put ray or gram down there and release goddard giblo or fisher up the ground
Cats forwards don’t stand a chance against this

I think its a bit too tall. I'd expect chapman and johnson to run rings around our D 50 if thats how they line up. Goose is also effectively unproven these days.

[plugger66]

dawson max fisher
gilbo goose goddard

That right there, is a premiership defensive unit.
Goose dawson and max stay at home.
Gilbo fisher and goddard produce the run.
With fisher and goddard still able to cut across in front of packs
Also still have the ability to put ray or gram down there and release goddard giblo or fisher up the ground
Cats forwards don’t stand a chance against this

I would have Blake ahead of Goose. Goose hasnt been great in the VFL down back and that is a much lesser comp.

[saintjake]

dawson max fisher
gilbo goose goddard

That right there, is a premiership defensive unit.
Goose dawson and max stay at home.
Gilbo fisher and goddard produce the run.
With fisher and goddard still able to cut across in front of packs
Also still have the ability to put ray or gram down there and release goddard giblo or fisher up the ground
Cats forwards don’t stand a chance against this

I think its a bit too tall. I'd expect chapman and johnson to run rings around our D 50 if thats how they line up. Goose is also effectively unproven these days.

i think you forget, just how mobile our guys are
max BJ chips and gilbo can all play on the smalls.
goose is only there in the hope that he gets games under his belt
im sure once he does, he will be back.

[Ghost Like]

dawson max fisher
gilbo goose goddard

That right there, is a premiership defensive unit.
Goose dawson and max stay at home.
Gilbo fisher and goddard produce the run.
With fisher and goddard still able to cut across in front of packs
Also still have the ability to put ray or gram down there and release goddard giblo or fisher up the ground
Cats forwards don’t stand a chance against this

I don't mind that jake but I think come round 17 or 18 for the run into the finals it may look something like this:

Max Dawson Dempster
Gilbo Goose Fisher

Goddard might find a spot on the half forward line, given the licence to roam the field and play the loose man in the back half.

Gram and Ray on the wings with both experienced in giving our backs a chop out and adding to the run from the back half through the middle.

[mad saint guy]

B: Dawson, Hudghton, R.Clarke
HB: Gram, S.Fisher, Gilbert

Max takes the best goalkicker
Dawson takes the third forward/resting ruckman
Fisher plays on the high-leading tall
Raph and Gilbert take the medium/smalls
Gram rebounding

Not considering Dempster yet

[saintsRrising]

B: Dawson, Hudghton, R.Clarke
HB: Gram, S.Fisher, Gilbert

Baker better than Raph.

I fully expect Rap to be dropped this week as we have 3 strings ins to bring in.

[bigcarl]

max's return presents a bit of a balance problem in the backline and has the potential to leave us short of run.

all i can say is we shouldn't move too far away from the structure that has made us the meanest defence in the competition this season.

[Stillwaiting]

dawson max fisher
gilbo goose goddard

That right there, is a premiership defensive unit.
Goose dawson and max stay at home.
Gilbo fisher and goddard produce the run.
With fisher and goddard still able to cut across in front of packs
Also still have the ability to put ray or gram down there and release goddard giblo or fisher up the ground
Cats forwards don’t stand a chance against this

I think its a bit too tall. I'd expect chapman and johnson to run rings around our D 50 if thats how they line up. Goose is also effectively unproven these days.

Very good defensive unit, but it is a bit tall

[BigMart]

B: DAWSON -- HUDGHTON -- (BAKER/DEMPSTER)

HB: GILBERT -- BLAKE -- S.FISHER

Gram, Ray, Goddard, Geary all able to play HB if needed...

Raph and Gwilt in reserve

[maverick]

B: DAWSON -- HUDGHTON -- (BAKER/DEMPSTER)

HB: GILBERT -- BLAKE -- S.FISHER

Gram, Ray, Goddard, Geary all able to play HB if needed...

Raph and Gwilt in reserve

Blake needs to start taking the second tall instead of Sammy F to get selected at CHB.

I think Blake's a chance for the third forward role myself.

[james rose]

dawson max fisher
gilbo goose goddard

That right there, is a premiership defensive unit.
Goose dawson and max stay at home.
Gilbo fisher and goddard produce the run.
With fisher and goddard still able to cut across in front of packs
Also still have the ability to put ray or gram down there and release goddard giblo or fisher up the ground
Cats forwards don’t stand a chance against this

I think its a bit too tall. I'd expect chapman and johnson to run rings around our D 50 if thats how they line up. Goose is also effectively unproven these days.

i think you forget, just how mobile our guys are
max BJ chips and gilbo can all play on the smalls.
goose is only there in the hope that he gets games under his belt
im sure once he does, he will be back.

Whilst some of those players can play on smalls and have good mobility it is another thing entirely to play on 2 or 3 quality smalls.

Imagine if BJ walked over to milne to play on him (if he were from another club)... we'd laugh at him and be hoping that we could isolate the match up.

I think those players are some if not all of our best 6 backmen but would suggest their are teams against which it is too tall.

Even this round our initial backline was too tall- one of the reasons blake moved forward.

[bigcarl]

with max back and gilbert in, if fit, this week we've actually five key position defenders (or guys who can play that role) - dawson, max, blake, gilbert, fisher.

lack of run might become a worry and, as i said earlier, we shouldn't move too far away from the structure that has been the best in the competition this season.

[plugger66]

with max back and gilbert in, if fit, this week we've actually five key position defenders (or guys who can play that role) - dawson, max, blake, gilbert, fisher.

lack of run might become a worry and, as i said earlier, we shouldn't move too far away from the structure that has been the best in the competition this season.

Correct I still think we are one tall to many as shown by moving Blake forward last week.

[bigcarl]

with max back and gilbert in, if fit, this week we've actually five key position defenders (or guys who can play that role) - dawson, max, blake, gilbert, fisher.

lack of run might become a worry and, as i said earlier, we shouldn't move too far away from the structure that has been the best in the competition this season.

Correct I still think we are one tall to many as shown by moving Blake forward last week.

will it be further compounded this week if gilbert is back in? and is blake the best option to go forward?

[plugger66]

with max back and gilbert in, if fit, this week we've actually five key position defenders (or guys who can play that role) - dawson, max, blake, gilbert, fisher.

lack of run might become a worry and, as i said earlier, we shouldn't move too far away from the structure that has been the best in the competition this season.

Correct I still think we are one tall to many as shown by moving Blake forward last week.

will it be further compounded this week if gilbert is back in? and is blake the best option to go forward?

None of them are good options to move forward so one will have to be dropped in the long run.

[bigcarl]

None of them are good options to move forward.

i don't know about that. they are more versatile than you think imo.

gilbert or fisher might offer more than gwilt as a forward, for example.

however the problem is that both are excellent defenders who provide much of the run.

[plugger66]

None of them are good options to move forward so one will have to be dropped in the long run.

i don't know about that. gilbert or fisher might offer more than gwilt as a forward, for example.

however both are excellent defenders who provide much of the run.

Thats what I mean that none of them are good options to move forward. I dont like the idea of moving either of our best backmen just to fit in a good average backman.

[SainterK]

If anyone was to go forward, I think it would be Gilbert....Ross had him up there most of the practice rounds / preseason.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

This is the perfect opportunity to play either Sam Fisher, or Sam Gilbert on the half forward flank, in the role Sammy Hamill and James Hird used to play. Either one of them, or Brendan Goddard. With Kosi and Nick playing deep forward, we have a clear marking weakness across HF. All those first 3 are fantastic overhead, smart, very mobile/fit and use it well. There's no reason they couldn't do just as well across HF.
Last year we tried Charlie Gardiner there and Jimmy Gwilt is doing reasonably there this year, but just ins't taking enough marks or getting it enough. We can get away with it against probably 14 teams, but we'll almost certainly have to beat Geelong in a final, which is possibly the only game that will really matter, if we want to win the flag.
We often kick it long to Schneider, McQualter, etc at half forward, but imagine what Mackie, Milburn, etc would do to them in the air? It would make it hard to get from defence to Rooey and Kosi. Putting someone like either/both Sams to HF would also mean there was less likelihood of our opponents having someone tall spare, to play loose in front of Roo and Kosi, because they'd have to play on Fisher or Gilbert instead. We drafted Tom Lynch because we said we're after someone to play the sort of role Hamill used to play, but we have 3 guys there now that could do it immediately (Goddard, Fisher, Gilbert). They could all kick ass there. As stated, we have enough tall guys down back now and we could always send Gram/Ray/Geary back there to add any run we lost (by moving one of the Sam's forward).
We're effectively 5 games clear of third spot at the moment, so we can definately afford to experiment. If it doesn't work out we're allowed to move them back and there would be plenty of the year left to get settled again. I reckon Fisher at least would be great across HF, pretty much immediately and that our team would be stronger/better OVERALL, which is the aim.
Many probably thought moving Goddard and Gram out of defence last year was a bad move and look how well that turned out. Like Collingwood moving John Anthony from full back to full forward. Or Adelaide moving Shane Ellen from defence to FF in the 1997 grand final. I think we all remember how that turned out!

This team is very strong across every line

B- Max Zac Baker
HB- Gilbert Goose Gram
C- Dal Santo Hayes Joey
HF- Goddard S Fisher Ray
F- Riewoldt Kosi Milne
R- Gardi Ball Jones
I (From)- King Gwilt Schneider McQualter Blake Geary Raph Eddy

[plugger66]

This is the perfect opportunity to play either Sam Fisher, or Sam Gilbert on the half forward flank, in the role Sammy Hamill and James Hird used to play. Either one of them, or Brendan Goddard. With Kosi and Nick playing deep forward, we have a clear marking weakness across HF. All those first 3 are fantastic overhead, smart, very mobile/fit and use it well. There's no reason they couldn't do just as well across HF.
Last year we tried Charlie Gardiner there and Jimmy Gwilt is doing reasonably there this year, but just ins't taking enough marks or getting it enough. We can get away with it against probably 14 teams, but we'll almost certainly have to beat Geelong in a final, which is possibly the only game that will really matter, if we want to win the flag.
We often kick it long to Schneider, McQualter, etc at half forward, but imagine what Mackie, Milburn, etc would do to them in the air? It would make it hard to get from defence to Rooey and Kosi. Putting someone like either/both Sams to HF would also mean there was less likelihood of our opponents having someone tall spare, to play loose in front of Roo and Kosi, because they'd have to play on Fisher or Gilbert instead. We drafted Tom Lynch because we said we're after someone to play the sort of role Hamill used to play, but we have 3 guys there now that could do it immediately (Goddard, Fisher, Gilbert). They could all kick ass there. As stated, we have enough tall guys down back now and we could always send Gram/Ray/Geary back there to add any run we lost (by moving one of the Sam's forward).
We're effectively 5 games clear of third spot at the moment, so we can definately afford to experiment. If it doesn't work out we're allowed to move them back and there would be plenty of the year left to get settled again. I reckon Fisher at least would be great across HF, pretty much immediately and that our team would be stronger/better OVERALL, which is the aim.
Many probably thought moving Goddard and Gram out of defence last year was a bad move and look how well that turned out. Like Collingwood moving John Anthony from full back to full forward. Or Adelaide moving Shane Ellen from defence to FF in the 1997 grand final. I think we all remember how that turned out!

This team is very strong across every line

B- Max Zac Baker
HB- Gilbert Goose Gram
C- Dal Santo Hayes Joey
HF- Goddard S Fisher Ray
F- Riewoldt Kosi Milne
R- Gardi Ball Jones
I (From)- King Gwilt Schneider McQualter Blake Geary Raph Eddy

So you want to move an AA backman to CHF so a player who is struggling in the backline in the seconds gets a run. Why not leave our best backman back and if you see the need to replace Jimmy which I dont at the moment move Goose to HF as at least he has done OK in that position in the seconds. IMO Goose is unlikely to play much this year unless we get injuries or our form drops suddenly.

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

Goose kicking 5 goals two weeks in a row and getting named BOG hardly sounds like he's out of form (and the next week he apparently kept Scott Lucas goalless, and he then kicked 4 yesterday for Essendon). Playing CHF is harder than CHB which is why I reckon he was cherry ripe to come back in to CHB this weekend. Most seem to have forgotten how he used to DOMINATE at CHB, and he was only 21 at the time. He put his body (and life, almost) on the line for us many, many times and surely we owe it to ourselves (and him) to see if he's still got it. If not, so be it.
The reason I'm not suggesting him for CHF in the seniors is that Ross and match committee don't seem to want 3 really big guys up forward. Although I've named Fisher at CHF I'm more suggesting he play closer to the flank, so he won't get in Rooey and Kosi's way, and he's mobile enough to play there. I'm not scared to take the chance of moving him from down back to the forward line. As I said, I reckon we'd be stronger OVERALL, which is what's most important.
He's got the ability to play forward and usually when someone's good enough to play up forward, they do so. It's why the likes of Riewoldt, Carey, Hird, Brereton, Johnathan Brown, Buddy, Tredrea, etc play/played up forward. They could all have done brilliantly down back (like Sam Fisher) but they play/played up forward, because that's where they're most valuable.
As I said, we can afford to experiment and it could spark the team back to life a bit. You don't have to be afraid of change. You can live a little!