Loyalty????

BigMart · Post: # 854399Post **BigMart** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 10:10am

at the end of 2003 a group of St.Kilda players had a get together at someones house....perhaps Grant Thomas's or Nick Riewoldts....the side was full of promise....and the players were great mates.....it was there the younger players made a commitment to stick together and bring St.K success. At the centre of this discussion was Riewoldt and Koschitzke....#1 and #2 draft picks, best mates and bookends who a great team could be built around...

aswell as

Lenny Hayes, Steven Baker, Steven Milne, Jason Blake, Luke Ball, Xavier Clarke, Nick Dal Santo, Matt Maguire, Leigh Montagna, Brendon Goddard, Mathhew Ferguson, Leigh Fisher....and a few others......the core of a premiership team in every ones eyes.....

Those players by and large have stuck together since even in the face of big contract offers.....Goddard, Ball, Dal Santo esp....and of course Riewoldt's lure to GC17.....all have refused....Grant Thomas was given much od the credit for this loyalty, and he played a part.....but it was mainly the players desire for team success drove their commitment to each other.......they genuinly love each other...

Since then ther has been injury, heartache, controversy and some success.....and still they remained one of the tightest groups in the AFL.

3 of the most popular of that group have now been discarded by the club they called home since the were 17......close mates of great character dumped by the club that they are expected to remain loyal to......

Question is....

How is this going to effecet future loyalties to the jumper????

Luke Ball....Back up for Lenny Hayes and one of the best in the first half of the GF until he was again benched for a long period....why did Ross Lyon lose faith in him? He got Brownlow votes 2 weeks before he was sent to the VFL......another issue....what if Lenny hayes gets injured R1....is Armitage suppose to step up after 17 games and take the mantle of #1 inside mid????......ross must understand the importance of heart and soul playes, he saw Brett Kirk first hand for many years.....Melbourne may have found a premiership captain for 2014

Xavier Clarke.....was BURNING at Sandy until injured....possible the most popular player at St.K.....a great man with awesome character......with undeniable talent and NO luck.......traded fo pick #60 (5th round) a speculative pick.....brisbane has been universally seen as the winner for this trade.....lost not much, could gain plenty

Matt Maguire.....the hard luck story, an inspirational player coming back from adversity.....image the feeling around the place if he made it back!!!
Richmond could get themselves a strong KPP

Three players from the superdraft....pick #2, #5, #21

and for those three players who have played 350 games between them and are all 25yo....we have recieved pick #60 in the 2009 draft who could be a Phil Raymond, Justin Sweeney, Josh Houlihan, Eljay Conners, James Gwilt.....but maybe more than that, the fabric of the club MAY have been damaged, and the first stitches have perhaps started to come undone, or maybe success comes at a price??????

Strength through Loyalty

Verdun66 · Post: # 854403Post **Verdun66** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 10:24am

Nice to see you back Bigmart. Missed your stuff.

Understandably you are coming from the sentiment angle. But pragmatically, it is not a social club. It is hard-nosed professional sporting club. Well, I hope it is.

You are a cricket guy. No sentiment choosing the Australian Cricket team. There is a reason for that. Fittest guys, best performers.

I have sympathy for what you say, but also a sneaking regard for the hard nosed, non-sentimental approach we are taking.

Am away for a couple of days now, but look forward to the debate.

PJ · Post: # 854405Post PJ » Sat 31 Oct 2009 10:29am

and for those three players who have played 350 games between them and are all 25yo....we have recieved pick #60 in the 2009 draft who could be a Phil Raymond, Justin Sweeney, Josh Houlihan, Eljay Conners, James Gwilt.....but maybe more than that, the fabric of the club MAY have been damaged, and the first stitches have perhaps started to come undone, or maybe success comes at a price??????

Coaching staff have changed, players have changed and the game style is different. Success does come at a cost but I'm not sure about the fabric of the club argument. Clubs change with each new group - the current group reflect Ross's attitudes and he's openly said who ever puts up gets in - it's no longer about best mates sticking together it's about success. The 03, 04 group couldn't pull it off, Ross has taken the team into a GF and he'll bring new people to the club with him.

SainterK · Post: # 854420Post **SainterK** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 11:09am

I must point out that X was offered a 12 month contract, and opted to take a 2 year contract at Brisbane....which is of course fine.

Luke Ball was offered a 3 year contract, and instead requested a trade to Collingwood.

Goose, none of us are sure the story yet, it is possible that he was simply delisted. However, it is also possible that the club offered him the reported 12 month contract, and he has instead lined something up elsewhere.

I understand your sentiment, but I feel it would be easier for you to handle, should you learn to embrace some of our younger potential stars....

Get excited about Gilbert, Zac, McQualter, Geary, Steven and others...because while it's sad a chapter is closing, a new and exciting one is just beginning!

Milan Faletic · Sat 31 Oct 2009 11:34am

SainterK wrote:I must point out that X was offered a 12 month contract, and opted to take a 2 year contract at Brisbane....which is of course fine.

Luke Ball was offered a 3 year contract, and instead requested a trade to Collingwood.

Goose, none of us are sure the story yet, it is possible that he was simply delisted. However, it is also possible that the club offered him the reported 12 month contract, and he has instead lined something up elsewhere.

I understand your sentiment, but I feel it would be easier for you to handle, should you learn to embrace some of our younger potential stars....

Get excited about Gilbert, Zac, McQualter, Geary, Steven and others...because while it's sad a chapter is closing, a new and exciting one is just beginning!

I agree with both points of view. The common thread with the three players mentioned, is serious injury problems. 2003 is a long time ago and to only lose potentially 3 players from that group is a good result. There will always be younger players on the rise and current players who step up. Conversely, there will always be some players who can't sustain the journey. As SainterK said, it is believed that all three players were offered contracts but for whatever reason, they have moved on. In the 6 years since 2003, we still haven't won the prize. We can still win the prize and the newer coaching staff seem to be making the necessary changes without breaking up the nucleus of the group.

Moods · Post: # 854435Post **Moods** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 11:37am

SainterK wrote:I must point out that X was offered a 12 month contract, and opted to take a 2 year contract at Brisbane....which is of course fine.

Luke Ball was offered a 3 year contract, and instead requested a trade to Collingwood.

Goose, none of us are sure the story yet, it is possible that he was simply delisted. However, it is also possible that the club offered him the reported 12 month contract, and he has instead lined something up elsewhere.

I understand your sentiment, but I feel it would be easier for you to handle, should you learn to embrace some of our younger potential stars....

Get excited about Gilbert, Zac, McQualter, Geary, Steven and others...because while it's sad a chapter is closing, a new and exciting one is just beginning!

Couldn't agree more SainterK. Well put. The romance of Maguire, Ball, and X holds firm for many as they were integral to the renaissance of the saints along with a group of other exciting young saints in the early to mid part of the decade. Sometimes it's hard for ppl to realise that there is a new breed of sainters coming through. I reckon ppl find it harder to embrace the likes of Ray, Zac and even schneider as they are all originally from other clubs, and poss not considered home grown - unlike the players who have left.

P.S. - I don't like the use of the word Discarded or dumped either b/c as sainterK rightly points out - they were all offered contracts, yet chose to seek greener pastures. The debate will rage whether these new contract offers were reasonable, but I reckon it's unreasonable to claim that the club has abandoned any of these players leaving.

saint66au · Post: # 854436Post **saint66au** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 11:38am

Can understand the sentiment but completely agree with the previous 2 posts

aussiejones · Sat 31 Oct 2009 11:46am

We all know the answer ....the team needs to evolve ...things change , injuries happen , new opportunities appear. We invest emotion into our support of 'our' players. We genuinely feel for Ball , Maguire and X just as we care for Max. We enjoyed them playing and felt their pain .

The fabric of the club is not set in stone on a particular day when mates pledge to each other , nor does it fall apart when two or three move on .
In an ideal world Ball , Maguire and X would play on in 2010 , but we have a crop of up and commers who will be our heros of the future.
Just as we havnt forgotten Doc , Stewie etc neither will we forget Ball , Maguire and X.

Roll on 2010 we have unfinished business !!!!!!!

Winmarvellous · Sat 31 Oct 2009 4:57pm

Maguire, X and who?

stinger · Post: # 854514Post **stinger** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 5:17pm

great post st mart ...as always......i am absolutely going to hate seeing those three run around in enemy colours.....not happy jan....not happy at all...

Milton66 · Post: # 854517Post **Milton66** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 5:29pm

so do we keep this group of mates together and embrace mediocrity once again?

Loyalty cuts both ways. It's a team sport, and if any individual does not want to play team... then cya later Mater.

joffaboy · Post: # 854518Post **joffaboy** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 5:38pm

2003 is seven seasons ago.

Losing only three in 7 season is pretty good.

X was offered a one year contract and therefore broke the pact by wanting a two year contract at Brisbane which the Saints did their best to get him to. No problems AT ALL with X doing that but he broke this mythical pact.

Ball offered a 3 year contract but wouldn't sign. No. 2 player breaking this all encumbering pact. Again no problem with him chasing - well whatever he is chasing but he was offered a contract and didn't stick with his mates.

I am ver dissapointed with Gooses delisting as he is one of the few players I have a personal interest in (mates with my niece). He was delisted by the club so if we are looking at this "pact" the club broke it.

So IMHO 2 players walked on their mates and the club ditched one player.

The two players walked after our most successful season of this era.

So who has "torn the fabric" (whatever that means) of the club?

And what has this "pact" have to do with Gilbo or zac or cj or half dozen others at the Saints.

Time to move on. I will be dissapointed to see X at Brisbane and Goose at hopefully somewhere and I haven't given up on Bally being part of our 2010 campaign.

I would rather look forward with the Peakes and the Lovetts and the Irish lads coming on board.

lets look at Lynch and Stanley and heyne and McEvoy and Armo instead.

Good luck to X and Goose and heres hoping Bally will come back to the fold for the 2010 season at least - but I think it is a natural progression of a football team list.

saint66au · Post: # 854522Post **saint66au** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 5:45pm

stinger wrote:great post st mart ...as always......i am absolutely going to hate seeing those three run around in enemy colours.....not happy jan....not happy at all...

But its OK to have other teams traded / delisted players come to us?

The blunt truth is that the minority of players in modern footy will finish at the same Club they started

stinger · Post: # 854523Post **stinger** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 5:48pm

loyalty is a two way street.....very little faith and limited opportunity afforded to these three footballers....well..that is an overstatement...there was negligible opportunity afforded to x and goose....what would you have done in the circumstances folks.......?

stinger · Post: # 854525Post **stinger** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 5:53pm

saint66au wrote:
stinger wrote:great post st mart ...as always......i am absolutely going to hate seeing those three run around in enemy colours.....not happy jan....not happy at all...
But its OK to have other teams traded / delisted players come to us?

The blunt truth is that the minority of players in modern footy will finish at the same Club they started

what's your point, .....???...so you post that...and i'm all of a sudden going to enjoy seeing those three in enemy colours....get real ffs...

your post changes nothing.....i hated seeing plugger, stewart and ditterich running around playing for sides i detested....this next year is going to be terrible.....

anyway...i blame the club not the players.....

chook23 · Post: # 854526Post **chook23** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 5:54pm

Maguire

Has not played decent footy for a long long time

injured yes........

has 12 mths TO FORCE way in COULD NOT

turning circle of QE2 lost pace and agility...............time to move on

if he remained on list and continued to struggle people who are the Keep Maguire... would then blame the club for continuing to keep in car terms that is a lemon

X wanted to leave

Ball wanted to leave...still not resolved

given our season........(didnt get there though)
as a long time sainter would take that all the time .....over the past

Goose WAS a good player.......SO MANY STILL SEEM TO SEE HIM AS THAT PLAYER................
........thats what clouds peoples judgement.

He is NOT though
move on

if we were talking about another club with player with similar circumstace so mny would be saying why are they hanging on to the that hack cut down by injury.

stinger · Post: # 854528Post **stinger** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 5:55pm

saint66au wrote:
stinger wrote:great post st mart ...as always......i am absolutely going to hate seeing those three run around in enemy colours.....not happy jan....not happy at all...
But its OK to have other teams traded / delisted players come to us?

The blunt truth is that the minority of players in modern footy will finish at the same Club they started

you mean majority don't you..??/...love to see any stats to back up such a preposterous statement....

SainterK · Post: # 854529Post **SainterK** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 5:56pm

stinger wrote:
saint66au wrote:
stinger wrote:great post st mart ...as always......i am absolutely going to hate seeing those three run around in enemy colours.....not happy jan....not happy at all...
But its OK to have other teams traded / delisted players come to us?

The blunt truth is that the minority of players in modern footy will finish at the same Club they started
what's your point, .....???...so you post that...and i'm all of a sudden going to enjoy seeing those three in enemy colours....get real ffs... your post changes nothing.....i hated seeing plugger, stewart and ditterich running around playing for sides i detested....this next year is going to be terrible.....

anyway...i blame the club not the players.....

You blame the club, yet the club offered 2 out of the 3 a new contract?

stinger · Post: # 854531Post **stinger** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 6:01pm

chook23 wrote: Ball wanted to leave...still not resolved

Goose WAS a good player..
.

sorry i deleleted the x cpmment...

ball was screwed over...everyone outside the club acknowledges that....one eyed supportets excepted.....

,,,goose was promised a one year contract...or at least led to believe that one was on the table....

...x was starved of opportunity and was made to play in the vfl where he received a career threatening injury...whilst far less talented footballers were given dream runs in the firsts....

they are just not my thoughts...they are shared by most journos in melbourne...ffs....don't believe me..?.ask one of them....anyone....

stinger · Post: # 854532Post **stinger** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 6:02pm

SainterK wrote:
stinger wrote:
saint66au wrote:
stinger wrote:great post st mart ...as always......i am absolutely going to hate seeing those three run around in enemy colours.....not happy jan....not happy at all...
But its OK to have other teams traded / delisted players come to us?

The blunt truth is that the minority of players in modern footy will finish at the same Club they started
what's your point, .....???...so you post that...and i'm all of a sudden going to enjoy seeing those three in enemy colours....get real ffs... your post changes nothing.....i hated seeing plugger, stewart and ditterich running around playing for sides i detested....this next year is going to be terrible.....

anyway...i blame the club not the players.....
You blame the club, yet the club offered 2 out of the 3 a new contract?

see above...

here's the views of one supprter on the goose thread...

'The topic of Goose being delisted was always going to split supporters, as does the real possibility that Luke Ball won't be in a Saints jumper next year.

There are a lot of people who are disgusted that the club has shown disloyalty to a great player who was injured in the line of battle.

And thereâ€™s another group who believe he is incapable of ever getting back to a level of form that will see him regularly selected in the 22 and are saying itâ€™s a great announcement.

From my point of view I don't think it necessarily needs to be black & white. Personally I think it's possible to agree that the club has done the right thing while at the same time still regarding it as a very sad moment. I support the whole team and love the Goose however I also crave success & have full confidence in Ross & his team. So Iâ€™m sure Iâ€™m part of a group, hopefully the majority, who think this announcement was both sad and correct.

All the best Matty."

saint66au · Post: # 854537Post **saint66au** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 6:07pm

...whilst far less talented footballers were given dream runs in the firsts....

they are just not my thoughts...they are shared by most journos in melbourne...ffs....don't believe me..?.ask one of them....anyone....

Far less talented footballers?? SOunds to me like your having a crack at our selection policy eh? That the match committee dont know what they are doing?

Ask a journo eh? Funny how they are bottom-feeding scum when it suits your argument (normally if they dare say anything bad about the team) but now they are the font of all knowledge??

chook23 · Post: # 854539Post **chook23** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 6:12pm

stinger wrote:
chook23 wrote: Ball wanted to leave...still not resolved

Goose WAS a good player..
.

sorry i deleleted the x cpmment...

ball was screwed over...everyone outside the club acknowledges that....one eyed supportets excepted.....

,,,goose was promised a one year contract...or at least led to believe that one was on the table....

...x was starved of opportunity and was made to play in the vfl where he received a career threatening injury...whilst far less talented footballers were given dream runs in the firsts....

they are just not my thoughts...they are shared by most journos in melbourne...ffs....don't believe me..?.ask one of them....anyone....

disagree totally with bolded comment..................our unbeaten record at time meant players may have to bide time.....harry hinsight with the injury and then to blame/infer club/lyon at fault (made to play)

one year contract offer to goose ...I question that the club infact made that offer and it was media/journos who stated this.

and why the sudden support for the re-actionary media who change thier stories all the time........hacks

Thought your understanding of the journos was better stinger

SainterK · Post: # 854540Post **SainterK** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 6:13pm

stinger wrote:
SainterK wrote:
stinger wrote:
saint66au wrote:
stinger wrote:great post st mart ...as always......i am absolutely going to hate seeing those three run around in enemy colours.....not happy jan....not happy at all...
But its OK to have other teams traded / delisted players come to us?

The blunt truth is that the minority of players in modern footy will finish at the same Club they started
what's your point, .....???...so you post that...and i'm all of a sudden going to enjoy seeing those three in enemy colours....get real ffs... your post changes nothing.....i hated seeing plugger, stewart and ditterich running around playing for sides i detested....this next year is going to be terrible.....

anyway...i blame the club not the players.....
You blame the club, yet the club offered 2 out of the 3 a new contract?
see above...

here's the views of one supprter on the goose thread...

'The topic of Goose being delisted was always going to split supporters, as does the real possibility that Luke Ball won't be in a Saints jumper next year.

There are a lot of people who are disgusted that the club has shown disloyalty to a great player who was injured in the line of battle.

And thereâ€™s another group who believe he is incapable of ever getting back to a level of form that will see him regularly selected in the 22 and are saying itâ€™s a great announcement.

From my point of view I don't think it necessarily needs to be black & white. Personally I think it's possible to agree that the club has done the right thing while at the same time still regarding it as a very sad moment. I support the whole team and love the Goose however I also crave success & have full confidence in Ross & his team. So Iâ€™m sure Iâ€™m part of a group, hopefully the majority, who think this announcement was both sad and correct.

All the best Matty."

I am not sure what you are trying to say by highlighting the post above, as I would say that it is neutral opinion...

You are of course entitled to your view, however you believe the club has done the wrong thing by the players do you not?

stinger · Post: # 854541Post **stinger** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 6:15pm

saint66au wrote:
...whilst far less talented footballers were given dream runs in the firsts....

they are just not my thoughts...they are shared by most journos in melbourne...ffs....don't believe me..?.ask one of them....anyone....
Far less talented footballers?? SOunds to me like your having a crack at our selection policy eh? That the match committee dont know what they are doing?

Ask a journo eh? Funny how they are bottom-feeding scum when it suits your argument (normally if they dare say anything bad about the team) but now they are the font of all knowledge??

funny you are not......i'm just re-inforcing the simple plain fact...that some of you appear incapable of absorbing, that the st kilda football club is not blameless in the ball affair and that it is not always right or fair with selections or delistings....but i acknowledge that those decisions are for the club to make...

yeah..i'm having a crack at selection policy if that is the way you want this thread to go......along with 3/4 of the melbourne football following public......dempster should not have been selected in the grand final.....

and during the year an opportunity should have been found for x and goose to get a game....

and how about you play the post and not the poster for a change...i get a bit tired of your sly digs.....

stinger · Post: # 854543Post **stinger** » Sat 31 Oct 2009 6:18pm

chook23 wrote: and why the sudden support for the re-actionary media who change thier stories all the time........hacks

Thought your understanding of the journos was better stinger

i give credit where it is due...i have seen a couple of article written on the ball saga that mirror my posts on here....plenty of friends...not saints supporters ....have made similar comments to me...don't take my word for it ..ask your non sainter mates.....we f***ed up big time.....