Lyons Apprenticeships

[DWOODROW]

We lost on the weekend to a team that have quite a few exciting younger players and we were found out that sometimes young enthusiasm can beat structures and zones.

Question: Does anyone think that a 4 year apprenticeship is ideal or too long for a new recruit to go through before they get the opportunity to play more games.
Surely some would get disheartened at the lenght of the apprenticeship and could explain some inconsistencies in some the young players games.
Not making any excuses for any players or questioning Lyons coaching techiniques but am interested to know what people think.

With the game now getting more and more structured and tactical are we going to lose some the excitement out of footy. Not all are as good as a cyril Rioli but at the moment Saints look to not have any sort of excitement machine in the team ( Milne when he wants to )

2010 is a long way off finishing and we will now doubt bounce back.
I do subscribe to the fact that younger players need some consistency but experience at AFL level is needed as well.
Thoughts

[borderbarry]

Depends a lot on the player. Plugger for instance did not play reserves at all, but did his apprenticeship in the forward pocket. Tim Watson started for Essendon as a 15 yr old. I think Harvs was 16 when he played his first game.

[bigred]

Different game back then.

I think that a lot of it has to do with the player. In particular their physical development. Sure some kids get drafted and are ready to go. But quite a few are no way near the physical size to be competitive.

[SainterK]

It's an interesting question.

Some teams are having great success playing kids at the moment, Freo, Carlton, Collingwood.

It's the latter part of the season when it will get interesting, and that's when I hope the seasoned bodies and years of preseasons start to show their worth against the tired younger bodies.

[longtimesaint]

Plugger did play reserves.
I was at his first game in the twos at Arden street round1 1983
I think he kicked 4 goals, and did not come into the senior side until the day we played Paul Morwood without a clearance.

[DWOODROW]

Obviously no one will walk straight into an AFL team either as everyone has to do their time to prove that they are good enough.
I guess consistency is the big word here. If you can put consistent football in every week in the two's then the opportunity arises to step up to the next level.
I just think 4 years is a hell of a long time and could see why it could be frustrating. Mind you it's a bit different to club football and the expectations are alot higher.

I look forward to seeing what Lyon does next week as I think their may be some surprises coming but on Lyons form, more than likely not.

[jonesy]

Reading between the lines...no David shouldn't have been dropped I don't think. Maybe they were worried about going in too slow?
He should be back sunday you'd hope..

[Dr Spaceman]

Plugger did play reserves.
I was at his first game in the twos at Arden street round1 1983
I think he kicked 4 goals, and did not come into the senior side until the day we played Paul Morwood without a clearance.

I remember seeing him that year in an intra club at Moorabbin. Didn't know who he was as I didn't have a team sheet. Big strong kid playing at FF. Whoever he was he looked good.
Only found out his name next day in the Sunday paper.

Kicked 4 goals.

ON GT!!!

[DWOODROW]

Reading between the lines...no David shouldn't have been dropped I don't think. Maybe they were worried about going in too slow?
He should be back sunday you'd hope..

No mate I'm not actually talking about David. He has just finished his apprenticeship so should be getting more games.

I'm talking about the younger players coming throught the club that have the 4 years in front of them and the younger players at other clubs getting more experience and game time.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

with all due respects we did push games into kids early on and from that we destroyed X Clarke .... crippled Luke Ball .... ended J allen and after a great start wore Kosi down to a shadow of what he could be

Roo was always going to be a success and we got lucky with Dal and Fisher ...

there is no sure fire way to do it but i ask you who exactly is ripping the VFL apart to push their name forward ? Stanley has got ?? on his body so why would we risk destroying him soo early on ? Lynch who knows where he is at , A Smith is he ready yet ? Heyne ?? Winmar ? ......

i reckon once the young guys prove in the VFL they can cope with AFL they will get a go after all the game style RL wants the team to play isnt a easy run around the footy oval

[shmic_s]

with all due respects we did push games into kids early on and from that we destroyed X Clarke .... crippled Luke Ball .... ended J allen and after a great start wore Kosi down to a shadow of what he could be

Jared Allen's injury was a freak accident. He was ready to play and showing plenty and we would be in better shape (IMO) if we had him out there on the park atm.

[shmic_s]

Reading between the lines...no David shouldn't have been dropped I don't think. Maybe they were worried about going in too slow?
He should be back sunday you'd hope..

I also feel Dr.WOODROW is a passionate Saints supporter, who's worried about what other kids have been coming through, that could help Dave out on the field.

[plugger66]

Apprenticeship is crap. You can bet if Scully was with us he would be playing now and its his first year.

[shmic_s]

Apprenticeship is crap. You can bet if Scully was with us he would be playing now and its his first year.

I agree on Scully. Some players arrive ready to go. Some need time to get them (body and mind) right for AFL.

[plugger66]

Apprenticeship is crap. You can bet if Scully was with us he would be playing now and its his first year.

I agree on Scully. Some players arrive ready to go. Some need time to get them (body and mind) right for AFL.

Correct but the reason most our young kids arent playing is because they arent good enough at the moment to get a game. Armo wasnt dropped because he hasnt had 4 full years yet. It was due to form you would think.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Apprenticeship is crap. You can bet if Scully was with us he would be playing now and its his first year.

yeah and i bet you if Winmar was at the Dee's he wouldnt be playing yet

[plugger66]

Apprenticeship is crap. You can bet if Scully was with us he would be playing now and its his first year.

yeah and i bet you if Winmar was at the Dee's he wouldnt be playing yet

Correct. He is injured but yes he wouldnt be because he probably isnt good enough. The apprentice thing just means they arent good enough to get game as yet.

[saintsRrising]

On apprenticeships I think Lyon is being quoted out of context by some.

Lyon indicated it BUT also stated unless they were exceptional..

So if we had Scully he most likely would be playing too.
Each player is different..and it also varies depending where the club concerned is at....team needs etc.

Remember too that with Dees they are playing the young Scully, BUT they are not playing Watts yet who was taken the year before.

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Apprenticeship is crap. You can bet if Scully was with us he would be playing now and its his first year.

yeah and i bet you if Winmar was at the Dee's he wouldnt be playing yet

Correct. He is injured but yes he wouldnt be because he probably isnt good enough. The apprentice thing just means they arent good enough to get game as yet.

exactly and when your first pick in the draft is pick 20+ you are always going to get kids who are not going to be ready straight up ... the apprenticeship is about working on getting the players to be better over time cause the instant natural tallent isnt there

[plugger66]

On apprenticeships I think Lyon is being quoted out of context by some.

Lyon indicated it BUT also stated unless they were exceptional..

So if we had Scully he most likely would be playing too.
Each player is different..and it also varies depending where the club concerned is at....team needs etc.

Remember too that with Dees they are playing the young Scully, BUT they are not playing Watts yet who was taken the year before.

So is the word apprenticeship just mean not good enough to play in the side at this satge? Is there anyone at the Saints who is in their first second or third year and their form is crying out to be picked?

[st_Trav_ofWA]

On apprenticeships I think Lyon is being quoted out of context by some.

Lyon indicated it BUT also stated unless they were exceptional..

So if we had Scully he most likely would be playing too.
Each player is different..and it also varies depending where the club concerned is at....team needs etc.

Remember too that with Dees they are playing the young Scully, BUT they are not playing Watts yet who was taken the year before.

So is the word apprenticeship just mean not good enough to play in the side at this satge? Is there anyone at the Saints who is in their first second or third year and their form is crying out to be picked?

yes it is basically meaning they are not good enough yet ... just like an apprentice electrican isnt good enough yet to be a fully licensed electrican .....

so yeah our young blokes are still learning what is needed to be in the firsts

[plugger66]

On apprenticeships I think Lyon is being quoted out of context by some.

Lyon indicated it BUT also stated unless they were exceptional..

So if we had Scully he most likely would be playing too.
Each player is different..and it also varies depending where the club concerned is at....team needs etc.

Remember too that with Dees they are playing the young Scully, BUT they are not playing Watts yet who was taken the year before.

So is the word apprenticeship just mean not good enough to play in the side at this satge? Is there anyone at the Saints who is in their first second or third year and their form is crying out to be picked?

yes it is basically meaning they are not good enough yet ... just like an apprentice electrican isnt good enough yet to be a fully licensed electrican .....

so yeah our young blokes are still learning what is needed to be in the firsts

Yes but a first election can never be fully licenced that year but if you are a good enough footballer RL will forget about the appreticeship thing. We just havent got players good enough at this stage due to our previous good form and the players not being good enough to replace others in the side. I think things will change pretty quickly if our form doesnt improve over the next couple of weeks.

[saintsRrising]

On apprenticeships I think Lyon is being quoted out of context by some.

Lyon indicated it BUT also stated unless they were exceptional..

So if we had Scully he most likely would be playing too.
Each player is different..and it also varies depending where the club concerned is at....team needs etc.

Remember too that with Dees they are playing the young Scully, BUT they are not playing Watts yet who was taken the year before.

So is the word apprenticeship just mean not good enough to play in the side at this satge? Is there anyone at the Saints who is in their first second or third year and their form is crying out to be picked?

From memory Lyon was talking about that in general it took about 4 years for most players, unless they were exceptional, to become capable AFL players....and that they required development.


This was not 4 years before they played AFL football. I dont believe the 4 years was meant to be rigid...but just Lyon indicating that people should not expect all players to be AFL ready in their first year and to be patient as it could take years with most.

Looking at Gwilt he is having his sixth season with us and only this year would you say that he looks to be a regular and comfortable at AFL level. Maybe injurries set him backa year though.

It would be an interesting exercise for someone to go through our list and indicated roughly how many years it took for each player to "arrive".

[Spinner]

Apprenticeship is crap. You can bet if Scully was with us he would be playing now and its his first year.

Exactly.

Players earn games.

People can expect players to be up and down for four years until they start consistently contributing.

Supporters misinterpret Lyon's words as having to wait four years for opportunities.

The team picks its self in most cases.

Players that deserve a game will get one. Players that perform well will keep their spot.



Its four years until they consistently contribute in terms of expectation. Fast tracking kids is a different concept and happens when teams are at the bottom of the ladder.

[santazzi]

Apprenticeship is crap. You can bet if Scully was with us he would be playing now and its his first year.

I agree on Scully. Some players arrive ready to go. Some need time to get them (body and mind) right for AFL.

Correct but the reason most our young kids arent playing is because they arent good enough at the moment to get a game. Armo wasnt dropped because he hasnt had 4 full years yet. It was due to form you would think.

Exactly Plugger......for quite sometime now I was thinking that apprenticeship will pay dividend big time if we were strengthening quality youngsters........but I am stsrting to have a very uncomfortable feeling that Lyon is forced to have lengthy apprenticeships because the youngsters are simpley not good enough.....if so this in turn puts ????? on our recruiters.........