To Take The Next Step in 2011..

[Teflon]

We have to get better. Can't stand still or 2 things will happen:

1. We become a 5-8ish side that makes up numbers and isnt really a challenger.

2. The truly good "core" we have simply ages and misses the chance.

It really is time Lyon injects some class/quality into this side to bolster that at the top end. Sure, role players will remain but IMHO the skill level of these role players has to go up.

2 ways to improve as Hutcison said on SEN:

1 -Improve game style - to me the core here is some real urgency in ball movement ...some speed transition and not allowing sides to flood back so easily. We have some guns up fwd.....give them a chance.

2 - Personnel: For me (from last years GF) IF we are going to become a better side then we cant carry the likes of;

Mqualter
Peake
Eddy
Dempster

Guys like Gram/Kosi need a step up urgently also....and Geary's disposal is a major worry.

Im not into bagging players - purely just want to get better. These above guys either turn the ball over and lack skill or simply dont influence the contest/game enough to make any sort of impact on to many occasions.

Who to replace them like for like from last yrs GF?

Mqualter = Steven
Dempster = Raph
Peake = tough one we aint blessed with pace......but here's the Cripps chance for me (with a few games from Ledger also for a chopout)
Eddy = Armitage

So Raph, Cripps, Steven, Armitage.....throw in Gamble and cameos this year from Stanley/Walsh for X factor I reckon we have that 10-15% improvement we need and some much needed pace/skill (game plan aside).

Depth:

Mqualter
Eddy
Polo
Geary
Peake
Archer
Simpkin
Smith
Dempster
Lynch

Sure Im missing many but you get the idea.

I think Ross's biggest challenge this season is he may have to change his approach.......and place some real faith in certain youth and not for 1 or 2 games (at least while our core is at say 28ish...) if we are to get stronger across the board.

[SainterK]

I think Raph will replace Gilbert down back, at least initially while Ross experiments with him up forward.

Dempster was one of the guys who was consistently good in the finals series, even the best and fairest results highlighted that from memory. I'm not sure why he didn't endear himself to people with his performances on Gia, Stevie J and Didak.

Mini, well it depends if he will be in the midfield now that Gilbert has moved forward. I think instinctively he is a very good mid, but plays whatever role his coach gives him, not caring much if he doesn't individually shine.

Eddy I think it's fair to regard him as depth, I don't think he would of played if Armo was healthy.

Peake, I'm not sold on him not being good enough yet. I'd like to see how he goes when we (hopefully) have some forwards who are actually inside 50 some of the time giving him a target.

Nice to have some discussion about footy though Tef

[wasaintsfan]

its all well and good dumping guys out of the team like peake
eddy mcqualter and dempster

but the question is still the same who do we bring in when others are showing nothing? if ppl arent performing at vfl level... how do you expect them to excel in afl???

if players in the team are struggling and some one who plays a simular role is going great then thats one thing

but who are we going to replace say peake for???

[maverick]

I agree with you on this Teflon.
Hopefully the players you have picked have watched the encumbents go about things and mirror their work ethic, because that's where the true 10-15% improvement will come from.

[The Fireman]

we have to get better ?
far out,

[Teflon]

I think Raph will replace Gilbert down back, at least initially while Ross experiments with him up forward.

Dempster was one of the guys who was consistently good in the finals series, even the best and fairest results highlighted that from memory. I'm not sure why he didn't endear himself to people with his performances on Gia, Stevie J and Didak.

Mini, well it depends if he will be in the midfield now that Gilbert has moved forward. I think instinctively he is a very good mid, but plays whatever role his coach gives him, not caring much if he doesn't individually shine.

Eddy I think it's fair to regard him as depth, I don't think he would of played if Armo was healthy.

Peake, I'm not sold on him not being good enough yet. I'd like to see how he goes when we (hopefully) have some forwards who are actually inside 50 some of the time giving him a target.

Nice to have some discussion about footy though Tef

Im not convinced Gilbert will go fwd as often as many think. To Ross, I get the feeling if Gilbert went fwd 6 times this year that'd be an enormous shift from his structure.

Dempster I actually dont mind but if Gilbert goes back, Raph stays in and he goes for mine. Gamble will go fwd for sure from what Ive seen.

Mini is just not at the level consistently enough, he's depth nothing more for me.

Peake fades out of the game regardless who we have up fwd. Gram to so enormous lift needed here. Its no good being a long kick if you cant hit targets and turn the ball over by just bombing long. In todays game of rebound footy you get killed against the best sides. The other night Essendon again went coast to coast on the back of our lousy turn overs. I know its NAB Cup but I couldnt get over the poor skill levels on some of our players - sides like Pies/Cats IMHO carry less of these type than St Kilda.

Yep, nice to talk footy and not Kim Duthie...

[Thinline]

Peake > Ledger?

I think Dempster will surprise a few this year.

[Teflon]

its all well and good dumping guys out of the team like peake
eddy mcqualter and dempster

but the question is still the same who do we bring in when others are showing nothing? if ppl arent performing at vfl level... how do you expect them to excel in afl???

if players in the team are struggling and some one who plays a simular role is going great then thats one thing

but who are we going to replace say peake for???

Ive tried to suggest replacements - not just dump players but facts are some of these senior guys wont get any better skill wise and some of the kids might. The "might" bit is the part Ross will have trouble with IMO as its against his instinct I reckon to place his trust in youth without an apprenticeship...but we had better learn to fast track or we are in trouble.

As Paul Roos said last year - we got caught with to many "role players" I disagree...we got caught with to many "Role players"without enough skill/pace to influence the game/hurt opposition Eddys a case in point - Maxwell paid him no respect,simply ran off him. When Cats did this to J Steven in Rd 3(?) he kicked 3goals and hurt them. Different class IMO.

Time to trust some youth and rejuvinate thuis side a little....amazing what effect that can also have on senior "Core" players also.

[The Fireman]

I think Raph will replace Gilbert down back, at least initially while Ross experiments with him up forward.

Dempster was one of the guys who was consistently good in the finals series, even the best and fairest results highlighted that from memory. I'm not sure why he didn't endear himself to people with his performances on Gia, Stevie J and Didak.

Mini, well it depends if he will be in the midfield now that Gilbert has moved forward. I think instinctively he is a very good mid, but plays whatever role his coach gives him, not caring much if he doesn't individually shine.

Eddy I think it's fair to regard him as depth, I don't think he would of played if Armo was healthy.

Peake, I'm not sold on him not being good enough yet. I'd like to see how he goes when we (hopefully) have some forwards who are actually inside 50 some of the time giving him a target.

Nice to have some discussion about footy though Tef

Raph won't replace Gilbert, Raph is a liability down back..If Raph goes forward there would be less damage.

[Teflon]

we have to get better ?
far out,

try an keep up Fireman...do try.

[Teflon]

I think Raph will replace Gilbert down back, at least initially while Ross experiments with him up forward.

Dempster was one of the guys who was consistently good in the finals series, even the best and fairest results highlighted that from memory. I'm not sure why he didn't endear himself to people with his performances on Gia, Stevie J and Didak.

Mini, well it depends if he will be in the midfield now that Gilbert has moved forward. I think instinctively he is a very good mid, but plays whatever role his coach gives him, not caring much if he doesn't individually shine.

Eddy I think it's fair to regard him as depth, I don't think he would of played if Armo was healthy.

Peake, I'm not sold on him not being good enough yet. I'd like to see how he goes when we (hopefully) have some forwards who are actually inside 50 some of the time giving him a target.

Nice to have some discussion about footy though Tef

Raph won't replace Gilbert, Raph is a liability down back..If Raph goes forward there would be less damage.

Now you're getting in the swing...

Raph makes mistakes true. He also creates. Gilberts also a turn over merchant. I think you under sell R Clarke at his best for our side. Need to refresh the stereotype...

[Teflon]

Peake > Ledger?

I think Dempster will surprise a few this year.

I hope its Cripps > Peake with the odd Ledger cameo.

Must say this was the hard one as when trying for remotely like forlike replacements...pace doesnt jump out.

Certainly Cripps looks like he'll use the footy better than Peake and has the speed.

[The Fireman]

we have to get better ?
far out,

try an keep up Fireman...do try.

I'm glad I have help ...

[defacto]

dempster is bakers replacement. baker doesnt have many more years left in him.

gilbert will stay down back this year and then pinch hit forward. raph will come into the side in place of blake. like baker, blake isnt getting any younger. blake will probably be our sub, in place of the 2nd ruckman.

mcqualter is out for gamble.

peake will probably stay in the side, but play off the interchange. we should look at our options to see what we can replace him with as he goes missing in crunch games. having said that gram has been AWOL since 2009 GF. injury is not an excuse. if he is injured play him in the 2nds.

eddy is out. armitage is in.

[Con Gorozidis]

Peake > Ledger?

I think Dempster will surprise a few this year.

how? i dont mind him or mini or eddy as individuals. i just think we cant carry 3 blokes week in week out who only do negative stuff. yes i know its important. i know tackles in the fwd line are a KPI and are seen as a direct stat on winning v losing. but that stat alone has kept mini in the side for 3 years now. i just dont think we can have a team with so many who dont hurt the opposition when we have the ball. ok mini gets his 5 tackles inside 50 which is really important but kick a goal or set one up from time to time. he often goes missing and may not touch leather for weeks at a time. dempster does a great job on small fwds and is built like an adonis. but his kicking and ball handling are often woeful. as i said - as individuals that are all very likeable and all very courageous and team orientated players. just not sure how many and for how long we can carry guys that dont hurt or create when we have the ball. by all means fill space, press, tackle hard, use ur fitness. get numbers. run to position hard. but F*** me when we have it u need to execute some skill and cause some damage. if not it just goes BANG straight back down our backline so gilbo, fisher, gwility and zac have to save the day every 2 minutes. hard game to be able to do all that i know and ur limited by ur personnel.

so in summary - i agree with every letter of every word of teflons post.
its no good attacking or defending individuals. as a collective we need to improve what we do when we have it. skills, pace, run and spread, hitting targets and yes from time to time we need somone (like milney or schenids) who just say - enough faffing around here - im just going to kick a farking goal. thats what im here for.

but i agree with teflons like for like replacements. lets at least try it. cos same old same old wont get us there im afraid.

we need to hope that ledger/cripps/steven/armo/gamble/raph are up for it!

if raph can take gilbos role down back and gilbo goes fwd we look very dangerous cos gilbo is just so much more mobile than kosi was. kosi allowed teams to run out of defence so easily. gilbo just wont let them have that luxury. and if he takes a few marks and kicks a few goals we look very potent with roo, gamble, milne and schneids as known goal kickers ....

[bigred]

I think that Ledger and Cripps are a real chance to overtake a couple.

This is a good thing for us. Some real competition.

Gamble would be a monty to squeeze out Mini. At least this will make McQualter have to lift to retain a spot.

Armo really needs to cement his spot. Last chance season. If he cant do it this year then you would have to say its curtains for him @ Seaford.

Ledger to me really looks like he could take a spot right now. One of those guys that just seems to immediately adapt to the speed of the game. Cripps is in that frame as well. When you take my blatant prejudice into account, I would pick either of them ahead of Peake atm. They can both hit targets and are not terribly slow either.

Gotta bear in mind that often first year players run out of puff around round 15...the two month stretch leading into late September can see these guys fall away. Would be a nice change to get some games into them.

I dont see Raph as a liability. Needs to stay fit and string games together for once. He is still in the 22.

Al Smith could/should be a show for a HBF or BP.

Tom Lynch SHOULD....SHOULD be pushing for a regular gig. I expected him to be at the level for 2010. This will be his third year and he simply must create some opportunities, especially early, with a forward line that is going to be far from settled.

A fit Gram will make a difference. He played injured last year. Full stop.

I dont see Gilbert going forward too often. It is a good idea to at least get some level of aptitude playing at each end of the ground, but his value is best as a running back. If he had half the footskills of Aussie Jones he would be an elite player.

IMO the list looks to be a completely different prospect to the last two years. There are some guys that can really push for game time, which we have been lacking at least since 2009. As mentioned earlier, it all comes down to how prepared Ross is to give some of these guys game time.

It is freaking HARD to make it to Grand Finals...Just so incredibly difficult to get there..... List wise, I think we are in better shape than the past two seasons. The bottom four to six are going to come under some substantial pressure. Pressure from guys that can play.

Good to actually go through a thread about football for a change.

[InkerSaint]

IMO the list looks to be a completely different prospect to the last two years. There are some guys that can really push for game time, which we have been lacking at least since 2009. As mentioned earlier, it all comes down to how prepared Ross is to give some of these guys game time.

THIS... is the single biggest factor influencing our season.

[Johnny Member]

I heard Tim Lane pass a comment about us (and every team) needing to improve.
He then followed that up with, and he seemed to delight in it, that he can't see where our improvement will come from.


I don't believe improvement always comes from young guys moving up, or bringing new guys to the club.
The list itself, is only one part of it.

Our major improvement from 08 to 09, or even from 07 to the end of 08, had nothing to do witht he list.
We kept our guys fit and we nailed the game plan!

We were the dominant team in 09. We beat Geelong, finished on top and poor kicking aside we were the best team on the GF day.

Then in 2010, dare I say we didn't improve on 09 at all - yet went 10 points better in the GF!

So for a start I think it's a bit of a myth that you must improve to win the flag - particularly if you've played in prelims or GFs.
The Port team in 04 went worse than they had the two years prior, plus they lost Primus and Francou! And they won the flag.


Anyway, in terms of our improvement I'd see these as obvious ones...

Riewoldt doesn't miss 12 weeks during the year.
Baker doesn't cop 9 weeks leading into the finals.
6 day breaks? (someone would need to see if we cop as many this year as last year)
We don't get ambushed by the media mid-year with more or rehashed 'scandals'.
On GF day, Joey, Dal and Roo have an impact.
Gwilt continues to improve.
McEvoy has an impact.
BJ continues on from where he left off last year.


It's easy to forget how rough last year was for us. We had a dire year, and on here people were commenting (and I think I even read it in the papers at one point) that if we did manage to win it, 'it'd be on for the ages'.

Yet we made the GF and drew it the first time!


The thing I believe we need to be wary of, is that we don't lose the input of Lenny. He's probably the only guy that has a right to drop off - due to his age and wear and tear on his body.
But none of the other guns have any reason other than bad luck through injury to drop off.

[bergholt]

I think that Ledger and Cripps are a real chance to overtake a couple.

i'd be surprised if either of them was ahead of smith at the moment. dude's a bit of a forgotten man. he was emergency six times last year and has played in all the nab cup games. and last year he had a great nab cup debut picking up twenty-plus possessions against the eventual premiership side, so he's obviously got something.

i reckon he looks like he could just slot in to the midfield, playing wing/hf in peake's spot if necessary. not sure about pace but he looks solid enough to win his own ball and make things happen.

[saintbob]

[quote="Teflon"]We have to get better. Can't stand still or 2 things will happen:


2 - Personnel: For me (from last years GF) IF we are going to become a better side then we cant carry the likes of;

Mqualter
Peake
Eddy
Dempster

I reckon youre being very harsh on Dempster, he had a pretty good final series last year.
Personally I'd rather see Gram make way for Raph, he had a very ordinary 2010 and from what I've seen of him so far in the NAB cup nothings changed.

As for the other players you mentioned, I agree totally!!!

[AnythingsPossibleSaints]

I think that Ledger and Cripps are a real chance to overtake a couple.

i'd be surprised if either of them was ahead of smith at the moment. dude's a bit of a forgotten man. he was emergency six times last year and has played in all the nab cup games. and last year he had a great nab cup debut picking up twenty-plus possessions against the eventual premiership side, so he's obviously got something.

i reckon he looks like he could just slot in to the midfield, playing wing/hf in peake's spot if necessary. not sure about pace but he looks solid enough to win his own ball and make things happen.

Agree completely. Many are mentioning Cripps and Ledger and I hope they're good enough to get games this year, but surely Smith and Steven are going to be ahead of them. I doubt Ross will deviate too much from his recent (ie very slow) way of bringing in the "youth", so I think it's far more likely that he'll bring Smith and Jack in first, who fit the "youth" criteria, but aren't as raw as Cripps and Ledger.
I think Smith is the one who will (hopefully) replace Peake in the side, as he seems to have ample speed, better ball winning ability and better/much neater disposal (as well as the ability to tag). It's all well and good being really fast (Peake), but if you then turn it over by foot it can come back out past you just as quickly.
As for Mini, I would have been one who would have been extremely happy for him to have made way last year, but he looks to be going much better this year, if his 25 possie and 2 goal effort against Geelong is anything to go by. We've said we want more options through the midfield and it looks like he could be one of those. It's worth remembering that he was actually half decent two years ago, in his "break-out year", so last year might have been like his "second year blues". He may surprise us this year. If not, come on down, Jack Steven.
If he's fully fit for the year, I also expect to see plenty more of Tom Lynch, who has plenty going for him. As Hutchy said, he's now adjusted to the pace of training and once he adjusts to the pace of AFL games, he'll be very good. He wasn't captain of Vic Metro and a first round draft pick because he can't play the game. He's not "perfect", but I believe his up-side far outweighs his downside. I think Gamble will get first crack at the "lead-up-forward" role, but wouldn't be at all surprised if Lynch has passed him by the end of the year.
I think the improvement of Rhys and Big Mac (hopefully) will also make us better this year, but our game style and approach also needs tweaking to have us really moving forward.
As someone else said here, 2009 was our best year and I don't think we really ever reached those highs last year, so we need to find that spark that we had in 2009 again. Last year came across as a "grind". I think that spark will come when we start playing the more attacking and positive footy that Ross has said we're aiming to play. That could be the best thing that happens for this group, as I think the ultra-negative game style we've been playing has really taken its toll on them. If they're "let off the leash" it could be the best thing that happens to them. By a long way.

[BAM! (shhhh)]

Personally, I actually think that cliche's aside, if the Saints didn't improve an inch on 2010, they'd still be 2nd.

As that's incidental to the point of needing to improve to 1st, I think the continual discussion of who gets dropped is incidental to the real question of who provides the improvement. How they provide it will dictate who loses their spot in order to take advantage.

For example - Gilbert and Gram had kicking % < 65 for 2010. Raph turns over the ball inside our own 50 too much. If someone could break lines and hit targets, it would put all 3 under pressure, to various degrees. As I'd expect all 3 to line up for round 1, hopefully those 3 can improve themselves. Gram finding his '08 form would by itself bring us hige improvement.

Up front, if someone not named Reiwoldt or Milne can apply some consistent scoreboard pressure, they'll make themselves hard to ignore. Whichever of Stanley/Archer steps in for Kosi/Gardiner has a huge opportunity.

In the midfield itself, we've got 4 guys who carry the lions share in Hayes, Goddard, Dal Santo and Montagna. All win the hard ball and to various levels use it. If someone can genuinely join this group, Goddard, Dal and Montagna also tend to have to double up as linebreakers, so it give the ever invaluable options. I've noted with surprise that nobody seems to consider Jones' spot under any pressure, in spite of his 2010 being well below his '09, and there being injury rumours around him.

Long story short, just shuffling the names continually thrown on here is only half the equation. If there aren't contributions from their replacements, it's just more of the same.

The only prediction I'd feel safe making is that I bet at least one player from outside the forum's nominees gets dropped, leading to discussions of "how can Lyon justify giving xxxx a game ahead of yyyy".

[maverick]

I think Raph will replace Gilbert down back, at least initially while Ross experiments with him up forward.

Dempster was one of the guys who was consistently good in the finals series, even the best and fairest results highlighted that from memory. I'm not sure why he didn't endear himself to people with his performances on Gia, Stevie J and Didak.

Mini, well it depends if he will be in the midfield now that Gilbert has moved forward. I think instinctively he is a very good mid, but plays whatever role his coach gives him, not caring much if he doesn't individually shine.

Eddy I think it's fair to regard him as depth, I don't think he would of played if Armo was healthy.

Peake, I'm not sold on him not being good enough yet. I'd like to see how he goes when we (hopefully) have some forwards who are actually inside 50 some of the time giving him a target.

Nice to have some discussion about footy though Tef

Raph won't replace Gilbert, Raph is a liability down back..If Raph goes forward there would be less damage.

Now you're getting in the swing...

Raph makes mistakes true. He also creates. Gilberts also a turn over merchant. I think you under sell R Clarke at his best for our side. Need to refresh the stereotype...

+1
It amazes me that some in the team can make errors and others can do no wrong...

[BAM! (shhhh)]

I think Raph will replace Gilbert down back, at least initially while Ross experiments with him up forward.

Dempster was one of the guys who was consistently good in the finals series, even the best and fairest results highlighted that from memory. I'm not sure why he didn't endear himself to people with his performances on Gia, Stevie J and Didak.

Mini, well it depends if he will be in the midfield now that Gilbert has moved forward. I think instinctively he is a very good mid, but plays whatever role his coach gives him, not caring much if he doesn't individually shine.

Eddy I think it's fair to regard him as depth, I don't think he would of played if Armo was healthy.

Peake, I'm not sold on him not being good enough yet. I'd like to see how he goes when we (hopefully) have some forwards who are actually inside 50 some of the time giving him a target.

Nice to have some discussion about footy though Tef

Raph won't replace Gilbert, Raph is a liability down back..If Raph goes forward there would be less damage.

Now you're getting in the swing...

Raph makes mistakes true. He also creates. Gilberts also a turn over merchant. I think you under sell R Clarke at his best for our side. Need to refresh the stereotype...

+1
It amazes me that some in the team can make errors and others can do no wrong...

By the numbers, of our linebreakers, Raph is more likely to hit a target than Gilbert or Gram. However, it should be noted that Gram also puts the ball inside 50 a lot, which is more difficult (and will generally have a lower %), and without numbers to support I believe Gilbert's turnovers also tended to be further up the ground than Raph.

I have no idea which one's turnovers statistically actually end up in goals against most often, or who genuinely gives up the most GA on a pro rata basis.

[Teflon]

I think Raph will replace Gilbert down back, at least initially while Ross experiments with him up forward.

Dempster was one of the guys who was consistently good in the finals series, even the best and fairest results highlighted that from memory. I'm not sure why he didn't endear himself to people with his performances on Gia, Stevie J and Didak.

Mini, well it depends if he will be in the midfield now that Gilbert has moved forward. I think instinctively he is a very good mid, but plays whatever role his coach gives him, not caring much if he doesn't individually shine.

Eddy I think it's fair to regard him as depth, I don't think he would of played if Armo was healthy.

Peake, I'm not sold on him not being good enough yet. I'd like to see how he goes when we (hopefully) have some forwards who are actually inside 50 some of the time giving him a target.

Nice to have some discussion about footy though Tef

Raph won't replace Gilbert, Raph is a liability down back..If Raph goes forward there would be less damage.

Now you're getting in the swing...

Raph makes mistakes true. He also creates. Gilberts also a turn over merchant. I think you under sell R Clarke at his best for our side. Need to refresh the stereotype...

+1
It amazes me that some in the team can make errors and others can do no wrong...

By the numbers, of our linebreakers, Raph is more likely to hit a target than Gilbert or Gram. However, it should be noted that Gram also puts the ball inside 50 a lot, which is more difficult (and will generally have a lower %), and without numbers to support I believe Gilbert's turnovers also tended to be further up the ground than Raph.
I have no idea which one's turnovers statistically actually end up in goals against most often, or who genuinely gives up the most GA on a pro rata basis.

Im not sure in todays game where all turn overs kill you (see the way Bombers went coast to coast from our fwd line turn overs) that theres much difference. Bombing long mongrel punts into fwd 50 in todays game is near useless.