My Thoughts on Ross Leaving

[cps]

Hi Folks,

I'm a long-time Saints member. I keep an eye on Saintsational but I don't post often.

I have a few thoughts on Ross Lyon leaving us for Freo. The more I think about it, the more I think I understand why. It doesn't make me feel good as I would have preferred him to stay. But we will move on.

I don't know Ross personally but from what I've seen, as a coach he's cold, calculating and ruthless. He's also driven and very keen to be a successful career coach. However, he was never a St Kilda person in the way that, say, Robert Harvey or Nathan Burke are. These guys have an emotional attachment to the club that comes from playing and the camerarderie that develops. These guys bleed for the club.

So what do I think about Ross. Well, I think he's a mercenary and a "gun for hire" who, as long as he thinks the job is personally worth doing, will work for the highest bidder. But that's not to say he's a bad coach. In fact, being cold, calculating and ruthless are great qualities on match day and at trade time. It also doesn't mean that he didn't do the best that he could while at the Saints.

From this point of view, I think that Ross left because he saw that our list is most likely in decline, and that while our chances of playing finals next year are fair, after that there will be a rebuild and probably a bottoming out. These are usually tough times for coaches and if the rebuild is too slow or unsuccessful then the coach is usually shown the door. So what did Ross do? He engineered a better offer and went to where he thought the chances of being a successful coach were greater - a ready-made list that will probably challenge for a flag in the next few years. Maybe he was deceitful in how the negotiations were conducted but things like this happen in business all the time. Maybe it's just another example of his cold, ruthless nature.

A lot of people have said some nasty things about Ross on here and I can understand that. The real problem is this. Football clubs rely on emotions like loyalty to build the membership. Be "passionate" etc. and the media pump this up all the time to increase ratings. But football clubs run as ruthless businesses now and there is no loyalty between employers and employees except perhaps where the people concerned have some emotional attchment to the club. Maybe this was true in the past when there were true suburban rivalries, but that's all gone now.

Anyway, I reckon Ross left primarily because he saw the chance to further his career as a coach. Now, many people have mentioned loyalty and integrity. Personally, I don't think Ross was ever a loyal Saints person in the way that most members use the term - he considered himself an employee. It didn't diminish his efforts as coach but there was no personal attachment. And as regards integrity, I reckon he considers integrity being measured by the effort put in while doing the job.

Personally, I hope that Ross fails at Freo, that their list is struck down by the injury Gods, that there are off-field scandals, that the members revolt at the "boring" game style, but I guess that's just me being an emotional supporter. I also think that even if Ross wins a flag at Freo, he won't be a Freo person - he's out for number one, simple as that.

[Teflon]

Good post I agree.

Ross clearly has all the traits of the corporate psychopath....aka its about the "job at the time" and success is purely for the individual with little remorse for those shot along the way. Ross doesnt do remorse - hes a cold,calculatings facts/figures man hence why so many have struggled to work with him. I reckon he'd be hard to build a relationship with UNLESS you were someone of "note" and 'useful' to the Lyon career.

I know this paints a bad picture and as you say its not all bad - some of these traits in business are absolutely necessary....but they dont bode well for younger players into a side who need nurturing....Ross doesnt do "nurturing"...thats what the VFL is for.....

1 thing is for sure, Lyon doesnt understand concepts like "loyalty" like most others do - I agree, his idea of loyalty is to "work hard while contracted".....he said it himself....IMHO hes a guy who just isnt wired to get that. Integrity.....to him..."doing the right thing while contracted"......again, the moral contract Leigh Matthews talked about would be completely alien to Ross Lyon - hed be wondering "why all the fuss".

Ive met many in business like this....bird-like creatures with no regard for what they say, how they say it or to whom.......just to their "own code" which usually is there to feed their own success solely.

Forget him cause I guarantee hes moved on. We should too.

[kalsaint]

Hi Folks,

I'm a long-time Saints member. I keep an eye on Saintsational but I don't post often.

I have a few thoughts on Ross Lyon leaving us for Freo. The more I think about it, the more I think I understand why. It doesn't make me feel good as I would have preferred him to stay. But we will move on.

I don't know Ross personally but from what I've seen, as a coach he's cold, calculating and ruthless. He's also driven and very keen to be a successful career coach. However, he was never a St Kilda person in the way that, say, Robert Harvey or Nathan Burke are. These guys have an emotional attachment to the club that comes from playing and the camerarderie that develops. These guys bleed for the club.

So what do I think about Ross. Well, I think he's a mercenary and a "gun for hire" who, as long as he thinks the job is personally worth doing, will work for the highest bidder. But that's not to say he's a bad coach. In fact, being cold, calculating and ruthless are great qualities on match day and at trade time. It also doesn't mean that he didn't do the best that he could while at the Saints.

From this point of view, I think that Ross left because he saw that our list is most likely in decline, and that while our chances of playing finals next year are fair, after that there will be a rebuild and probably a bottoming out. These are usually tough times for coaches and if the rebuild is too slow or unsuccessful then the coach is usually shown the door. So what did Ross do? He engineered a better offer and went to where he thought the chances of being a successful coach were greater - a ready-made list that will probably challenge for a flag in the next few years. Maybe he was deceitful in how the negotiations were conducted but things like this happen in business all the time. Maybe it's just another example of his cold, ruthless nature.

A lot of people have said some nasty things about Ross on here and I can understand that. The real problem is this. Football clubs rely on emotions like loyalty to build the membership. Be "passionate" etc. and the media pump this up all the time to increase ratings. But football clubs run as ruthless businesses now and there is no loyalty between employers and employees except perhaps where the people concerned have some emotional attchment to the club. Maybe this was true in the past when there were true suburban rivalries, but that's all gone now.

Anyway, I reckon Ross left primarily because he saw the chance to further his career as a coach. Now, many people have mentioned loyalty and integrity. Personally, I don't think Ross was ever a loyal Saints person in the way that most members use the term - he considered himself an employee. It didn't diminish his efforts as coach but there was no personal attachment. And as regards integrity, I reckon he considers integrity being measured by the effort put in while doing the job.

Personally, I hope that Ross fails at Freo, that their list is struck down by the injury Gods, that there are off-field scandals, that the members revolt at the "boring" game style, but I guess that's just me being an emotional supporter. I also think that even if Ross wins a flag at Freo, he won't be a Freo person - he's out for number one, simple as that.

Totally agree and was my thought when hired at Fremantle. The only surprise was his heading to a club with a culture that has not always bred success and often shot themslves in the foot.

It appears the knife at Freo appealed to Ross's style and accepted the role believing in their expectation fr change (much like St. Kilda's circumstances when he joined).

[White Winmar]

[quote="Teflon"]

Ross clearly has all the traits of the corporate psychopath....

Spot on Teflon. I too have seen too many of his type in my line of work. The disturbing thing about them is the lack of self awareness and empathy. Scary. They also tend to damage people more than is obvious at first. They are rarely if ever fondly remembered or missed when they depart an organisation.

[Teflon]

Ross clearly has all the traits of the corporate psychopath....

Spot on Teflon. I too have seen too many of his type in my line of work. The disturbing thing about them is the lack of self awareness and empathy. Scary. They also tend to damage people more than is obvious at first. They are rarely if ever fondly remembered or missed when they depart an organisation.

yer have worked for a few....trust is not a strong point.....and usually they have no clue nor care as to what damage they do....in some ways i pity them...when all you have is "your career"......u dont have a much for mine.....

[saints66]

Hi Folks,

I'm a long-time Saints member. I keep an eye on Saintsational but I don't post often.

I have a few thoughts on Ross Lyon leaving us for Freo. The more I think about it, the more I think I understand why. It doesn't make me feel good as I would have preferred him to stay. But we will move on.

I don't know Ross personally but from what I've seen, as a coach he's cold, calculating and ruthless. He's also driven and very keen to be a successful career coach. However, he was never a St Kilda person in the way that, say, Robert Harvey or Nathan Burke are. These guys have an emotional attachment to the club that comes from playing and the camerarderie that develops. These guys bleed for the club.

So what do I think about Ross. Well, I think he's a mercenary and a "gun for hire" who, as long as he thinks the job is personally worth doing, will work for the highest bidder. But that's not to say he's a bad coach. In fact, being cold, calculating and ruthless are great qualities on match day and at trade time. It also doesn't mean that he didn't do the best that he could while at the Saints.

From this point of view, I think that Ross left because he saw that our list is most likely in decline, and that while our chances of playing finals next year are fair, after that there will be a rebuild and probably a bottoming out. These are usually tough times for coaches and if the rebuild is too slow or unsuccessful then the coach is usually shown the door. So what did Ross do? He engineered a better offer and went to where he thought the chances of being a successful coach were greater - a ready-made list that will probably challenge for a flag in the next few years. Maybe he was deceitful in how the negotiations were conducted but things like this happen in business all the time. Maybe it's just another example of his cold, ruthless nature.

A lot of people have said some nasty things about Ross on here and I can understand that. The real problem is this. Football clubs rely on emotions like loyalty to build the membership. Be "passionate" etc. and the media pump this up all the time to increase ratings. But football clubs run as ruthless businesses now and there is no loyalty between employers and employees except perhaps where the people concerned have some emotional attchment to the club. Maybe this was true in the past when there were true suburban rivalries, but that's all gone now.

Anyway, I reckon Ross left primarily because he saw the chance to further his career as a coach. Now, many people have mentioned loyalty and integrity. Personally, I don't think Ross was ever a loyal Saints person in the way that most members use the term - he considered himself an employee. It didn't diminish his efforts as coach but there was no personal attachment. And as regards integrity, I reckon he considers integrity being measured by the effort put in while doing the job.

Personally, I hope that Ross fails at Freo, that their list is struck down by the injury Gods, that there are off-field scandals, that the members revolt at the "boring" game style, but I guess that's just me being an emotional supporter. I also think that even if Ross wins a flag at Freo, he won't be a Freo person - he's out for number one, simple as that.

Nice summary - You must be older than most of the immature posters on this site

[mr six o'clock]

speaking with saints friends weeks ago when he was linked with melbourne , i was hoping he would go .
I'm just sick of boring ultra defensive footy , I carn't wait till next year when hopefully we will be playing a more attacking brand.

[spert]

A few more thoughts from me... Lyon is over-rated, and although got us into finals, has not acheived a grand final in three attempts with a good team- and in my book a coach should be moved on anyway after that. He failed to develop depth in the playing list. As a coach he presented a team in 2011 which could only win one of its first eight games after playing the previous season in a grand final- it is the coach's responsibilty to motivate and prepare the team regardless of what else is going on. Upon leaving, left a team which has a deficient forward structure and poor skills -especially by foot. I doubt if he will do much more at Freo than win a couple more games per year and bubble around the bottom of the eight before he gets the flick in four years time.

[plugger66]

A few more thoughts from me... Lyon is over-rated, and although got us into finals, has not acheived a grand final in three attempts with a good team- and in my book a coach should be moved on anyway after that. He failed to develop depth in the playing list. As a coach he presented a team in 2011 which could only win one of its first eight games after playing the previous season in a grand final- it is the coach's responsibilty to motivate and prepare the team regardless of what else is going on. Upon leaving, left a team which has a deficient forward structure and poor skills -especially by foot. I doubt if he will do much more at Freo than win a couple more games per year and bubble around the bottom of the eight before he gets the flick in four years time.

Cant possibly see how he is overated. Our list was far from a two GF's in 2 years list. He will be a great coach for Freo. Exactly what they need.

[DWOODROW]

My thoughts on Ross leaving!!!!!!

Hallelujah

[plugger66]

My thoughts on Ross leaving!!!!!!

Hallelujah

Why?

[DWOODROW]

My thoughts on Ross leaving!!!!!!

Hallelujah

Why?

What you want a detailed explanation, so I am supposed to give it to you.

I have plenty of reasons, which I am happy to keep to myself.

Try reading the amount of posts dedicated to ross on this site and you might find a few.

[plugger66]

My thoughts on Ross leaving!!!!!!

Hallelujah

Why?

What you want a detailed explanation, so I am supposed to give it to you.

I have plenty of reasons, which I am happy to keep to myself.

Try reading the amount of posts dedicated to ross on this site and you might find a few.

So the reason are the same as everyone else. I thought you may have had your own reasons. I apologize for thinking that.

[Johnny Member]

Cant possibly see how he is overated. Our list was far from a two GF's in 2 years list. He will be a great coach for Freo. Exactly what they need.

I can see how he is overrated.

For a start, you declare he'll be a great coach for Freo. That in itself, is overrating him.

He wasn't a great coach with us, so why is there the assumption that he'll be great there?

Why did he declare in his press conference how premierships are won? He's never played in one, nor has he coached won.

The fact that everyone sits there and accepts his gospel as to how flags are won, suggests he is overrated. He's never won as a coach or player.

The fact that people use his 61% win/loss ratio as a guage to his greatness, overrates him.
He never had to rebuild a list when he arrived, like almost all coaches do. Most coaches take over a team where a previous coach has been sacked and the joint is in disarray. They use the first 2-3 years to rebuild, and if they're lucky at around the 4-5 year mark, things start to click.
He took over a team that had just played finals for 3 straight years.
Other coaches that spring to mind who have had the luxury of taking over an already 'ready' team, are Alan Joyce and now Chris Scott. So Lyon's 61% win/loss doesn't suddenly appear so special really.

The fact that we still play an outdated game plan under him, even though most saw it as an issue 2 years ago, and pretty everyone saw it as an issue 1 year ago. HE either refused to change what was clearly a failed strategy - or he wasn't capable.

The fact that he's mentioned consistently as being 'in the top 3 coaches in the competition' overrated rates - or moreso, overstates him.
Only 2 have coached flags, and he's the only other one that's coaches in a GF! So of course he's in the top 3 coaches in the comp!
The difference is, that his team finished 7th.


So there you go, there's some food for thought as to why I think it's fair for people to consider him overrated.

[Johnny Member]

Our list was far from a two GF's in 2 years list. He will be a great coach for Freo. Exactly what they need.

Out of curiosity, who's list do you think was better than ours in 09, and in 2010?

I can only think of Geelong in 09, and Collingwood and Geelong in 2010.

[DWOODROW]

My thoughts on Ross leaving!!!!!!

Hallelujah

Why?

What you want a detailed explanation, so I am supposed to give it to you.

I have plenty of reasons, which I am happy to keep to myself.

Try reading the amount of posts dedicated to ross on this site and you might find a few.

So the reason are the same as everyone else. I thought you may have had your own reasons. I apologize for thinking that.

Well good try in trying to bait me but I'll leave the little things I know to myself. If you are happy with the way things were going with St Kilda then I would think you were in the minority.

lyon is gone, thank f*** and now St Kilda can move on. I can't wait to see what happens next.

[plugger66]

Cant possibly see how he is overated. Our list was far from a two GF's in 2 years list. He will be a great coach for Freo. Exactly what they need.

I can see how he is overrated.

For a start, you declare he'll be a great coach for Freo. That in itself, is overrating him.

He wasn't a great coach with us, so why is there the assumption that he'll be great there?

Why did he declare in his press conference how premierships are won? He's never played in one, nor has he coached won.

The fact that everyone sits there and accepts his gospel as to how flags are won, suggests he is overrated. He's never won as a coach or player.

The fact that people use his 61% win/loss ratio as a guage to his greatness, overrates him.
He never had to rebuild a list when he arrived, like almost all coaches do. Most coaches take over a team where a previous coach has been sacked and the joint is in disarray. They use the first 2-3 years to rebuild, and if they're lucky at around the 4-5 year mark, things start to click.
He took over a team that had just played finals for 3 straight years.
Other coaches that spring to mind who have had the luxury of taking over an already 'ready' team, are Alan Joyce and now Chris Scott. So Lyon's 61% win/loss doesn't suddenly appear so special really.

The fact that we still play an outdated game plan under him, even though most saw it as an issue 2 years ago, and pretty everyone saw it as an issue 1 year ago. HE either refused to change what was clearly a failed strategy - or he wasn't capable.

The fact that he's mentioned consistently as being 'in the top 3 coaches in the competition' overrated rates - or moreso, overstates him.
Only 2 have coached flags, and he's the only other one that's coaches in a GF! So of course he's in the top 3 coaches in the comp!
The difference is, that his team finished 7th.


So there you go, there's some food for thought as to why I think it's fair for people to consider him overrated.

There just words. I could write the exact opposite to make him sound like a great coach. I will stick with Allan Jeans who said he cannot believe that list got into 2 GF's and no other coach could have done that. See you can write little but say a lot.

[Johnny Member]

There just words. I could write the exact opposite to make him sound like a great coach. I will stick with Allan Jeans who said he cannot believe that list got into 2 GF's and no other coach could have done that. See you can write little but say a lot.

Great coaches coach premiership teams.

[Johnny Member]

I will stick with Allan Jeans who said he cannot believe that list got into 2 GF's and no other coach could have done that.

I thought you may have had your own reasons. I apologize for thinking that.

[plugger66]

There just words. I could write the exact opposite to make him sound like a great coach. I will stick with Allan Jeans who said he cannot believe that list got into 2 GF's and no other coach could have done that. See you can write little but say a lot.

Great coaches coach premiership teams.

Alex Jesalenko coached one and also coached us to last.

[perfectionist]

On rebuilding the list, ten of the team who played in the 2006 EF were not part of either GF teams. I suppose the next step would be to criticise the "type" of rebuilding. Just how different our perspective would be given three different outcomes of some events: a ball hitting the post but not seen, a player having his jumper pulled but not paid and a bounce. Suddenly, a dunce becomes a genius, a traitor becomes a hero and hate becomes love.

[plugger66]

I will stick with Allan Jeans who said he cannot believe that list got into 2 GF's and no other coach could have done that.

I thought you may have had your own reasons. I apologize for thinking that.

Now you are posting 2 different quotes together. I agree it is embarressing you that a person would stoop that low when trying to discus things.

[St Ick]

My thoughts on Ross leaving!!!!!!

Hallelujah

I have been kind of waiting from a post like this from you and wondering how Dave is going. He is one bloke who has shown 'strength through loyalty' and I hope he gives us 10 years and 200 more games!

With GT I wasn't happy, I felt as though we were coached out of games with the lack of game plan. With RL I felt we almost played ourselves out of games with the over the top game plan taking away blokes natural instincts. With the new coach, its exciting, I think we have another year or two with the current list to push for a flag, with a reinvigorated list and game plan, how can that not be exciting?

[happy feet]

I guess I don't really care that he has left, but the way he went about it was wrong and of very poor form.

A couple of messages for you Ross:-

1. Those that live by the sword,die by the sword.

2. Revenge is a dish best eaten cold.

Remember these words Ross Lyon.

[gringo]

I agree to some degree, the common denominator amongst the great coaches is an almost sociopathic lack of sentimentality and drive. Ross has always shown he is capable of these acts. I heard a story of Ross getting sent out to take players out by running through them while playing under Robert Walls. He would go further than the coach even asked him to. He always made the call even when it wasn't popular and we gave him a long leash, Maguire and Xavier were let go Max wasn't played in the GF all calls that he made despite criticism. He may find it harder to move in a two team footy mad state. Sydney and a success starved Melbourne team are always going to be easier places to dwell. Part of the pain is that we did let him have a fairly free run at things and entrusted him with our future unquestioningly. He has damaged his brand by looking less than honest and maybe will find it harder to instill a selfless culture next time round.