The Two Team Argument

[mbogo]

If we go way - way back when - then which team would win?
Who would you include and why?

Saints vs Lost Souls

Saints

Howell Frawley Lawrence
Barker Fisher Griffiths
Jones Dal Santo Watson
Baldock Reiwoldt Loewe
Burke Neale Young


R Smith Harvey Morrow

Int: Bray, Roberts, Ross , Oswald, Murray

Coach: Baldock/Alves




Lost Souls

Guerra Dawson Besanko
Thomas Perovic McNamara
Winmar Stewart Eicke
Hall Cazaly Davis
Rice Lockett Everitt
Ball Smith Ditterich

Int: ??
Coach: Jeans/Lyon

Note: a bit unfair to Nicky W ... and a bit sad to see him here because of it.





Goddard?

[mr six o'clock]

Funny !
A thread about traitors coming from the good doctor ernest !

[st_Trav_ofWA]

Traitors is a strong word some of those guys namely guerra and Winmar were basically delisted by us can't blame them for looking for a game else where

[terry smith rules]

If we go way - way back when - then which team would win?
Who would you include and why?

Saints vs Traitors

Saints

Howell Frawley Lawrence
Barker Fisher Griffiths
Jones Dal Santo Watson
Baldock Reiwoldt Loewe
Burke Neale Young


Smith Harvey Morrow

Int: Bray, Roberts, Ross , Oswald

Coach: Baldock




Traitors

Guerra Dawson Besanko
Thomas Perovic McNamara
Winmar Stewart Icke
Hall Cazaly Davis
Rice Lockett Everitt
Ball Smith Ditterich

Int: ??
Coach: Jeans/Lyon

Note: a bit unfair to Nicky W ... and a bit sad to see him here because of it.





Goddard?

offensive to the max

So your saying that Allan Jeans, club legend is a traitor
that Ian Stewart, dual brownlow is a traitor

think about your language, before you post

[mbogo]

Yeah it is a bit rough - isn't it - what else can I name the other team?
I know ... I will edit

[mbogo]

No - I do not think they are traitors at all actually - and far less Nicky Winmar.
I was just lost for words - but lost souls is pretty accurate .. people we have lost that we perhaps should have tried harder to keep.
You have no idea how damaged I was when Ian Stewart left - when I had number 5 on my back.
People seem quite happy to send Lyon off - and label him as traitor freely - when Allan Jeans was also head-hunted by a richer club - wasn't he?
And yet it is sacrilege to say that about him.
BTW who the hell is Dr Earnest?
Anyone who knows me knows that I have supported the Saints since 1961!
I am saddened to see that the lost players may well beat the faithful ones.

[dragit]

Is that Zac Dawson in your 'lost souls of all time'?
Surely either Wakelin would be ahead?

[terry smith rules]

sorry meant to add

Russell Greene

[mbogo]

Good point - I hated losing them too - more stupidity.
Include at least one - who was the best? Daryl?
Dawson and the other to the bench.
Craig O'Brien - did he go to Sydney? (not very successfully)

[Stian]

Yep, and what about Russell Greene ?

[dragit]

Dean Rice, Matty Lappin, Joel Smith - all handy

[mbogo]

Lost Souls (Update)

Guerra D Wakelin Besanko
Thomas Perovic McNamara
Winmar Stewart Eicke
Hall Cazaly Davis
Rice Lockett Everitt
Ball Greene Ditterich

Int: Z Dawson, S Wakelin, M Lappin, C O'Brien, J Smith

Coach: Jeans/Lyon

Team would be great to coach - but half of them would walk 8)
Now THAT is some goal to goal line ...

[gringo]

Sziller and shannahan.

[mbogo]

Sziller and shannahan.

Would either make the 22? Shanahan at FB?
Would Goddard slot in here? I would probably drop GT and include Goddard at HBF ... ?

[Dave McNamara]

Hi mbogo,

Firstly great get putting George Young in the team. I will never understand how he isn't in our Team of the Century(!?!)

But no one's perfect. You got me wrong. Traitor? Never!

I played a coupla years in the Association, never played against the mighty saints. Even stood out of footy for a year so as to be able to return to my beloved Saints. When the career was over, returned to the club as a commiteeman, then vice-pres and eventually pres.

Inducted into the St Kilda Hall of Fame and the AFL Hall of Fame. 'Oldest' member of the St Kilda Team of the Century.

So mbogo please please take me outta' that team of traitors and slot me into the forward line. Maybe Cowboy could be the unlucky one to move to the bench(?) Centre Half Forward will do me fine... Roo's knee is dodgey, so move him to Full Forward and I'll kick it to him.

Thanking you in anticipation.

[Dave McNamara]

PS: My old mates Wels Eicke and Roy Cazaly... now those two blokes should be in the traitors team!

[mbogo]

Saints Update
Howell Frawley Lawrence
Barker Fisher Griffiths
Dal Santo Hayes Watson
Baldock Riewoldt McNamara
Burke Neale G Young

R Smith Harvey Morrow

Int: Bray, Roberts, Ross, A Jones, Oswald, Loewe

Coach: Baldock/Alves


Lost Souls (Update - with apols to Dave Mac)

Guerra D Wakelin S Wakelin
Thomas Perovic Besanko
Winmar Stewart Eicke
Hall Cazaly Davis
Rice Lockett Everitt
Ball Greene Ditterich

Int: Z Dawson, M Lappin, C O'Brien, J Smith, Sziller, Shanahan

Coach: Jeans/Lyon

Dave - I thought I could drop you in on a flank - I think Rooey might just hold off Loewe but I have to keep in Cowboy - 5 big ones in 66!
You could always nail one from inside the centre circle if required!
Thanks for noticing George Young - I am always surprised when I look for him in our Legendary teams. Anyone who can rip out Esendon's heart has my total respect! (Oops - one glaring omission - fixed)

[Austinnn]

Dr Earnest is probably your avatar. Ernesto the med graduate.

[sunsaint]

[Lost Souls (Update - with apols to Dave Mac)

Guerra D Wakelin S Wakelin
Thomas Perovic Besanko
Winmar Stewart Eicke
Hall Cazaly Davis
Rice Lockett Everitt
Ball Greene Ditterich

Int: Z Dawson, M Lappin, C O'Brien, J Smith, Sziller, Shanahan

Coach: Jeans/Lyon

lost souls would win easily - any team with lockett in it could turn a game in ten minutes of footy
but have to find a replacement for Ditterich, not sure he would get near the ball nowadays, he was good behind the play tho

[mbogo]

Yeah - it looks like they would romp it in - not a bad centre line either!
I think I might have to swap Aussie with Milney on the bench of the Saints - to add more goal kicking power!

[Dave McNamara]

Sorry, double post due to crappy old world computer.

(Yep, like a poor tradesman, being a poor poster I'm blaming my tools.)

[Dave McNamara]

Thanks for sorting that mbogo.

Now that the plea is outta' the way, I have a coupla suggestions to further strengthen the team. So lets get controversial (hey, isn't that the idea of these topics?) Here we go...

Greg Burns. Very, very underrated in my opinon. Our best centreman other than Stewie. (If pushed I'd take him ahead of Glenn Elliott.) Should be in the side ahead of Aussie Jones. Aussie had plenty of poor years due to attitude (IMHO) before the penny dropped, but even his best... I'd still take Greg Burns first easily. (I'd also put the likes of Glenn Elliott, David Grant and Gary Lofts well ahead of Aussie.)

Ramping up the controversy...

As good as Alan Morrow was, even more so when one considers his (lack of) height, easily our best ever ruckman was John McIntosh. His premature career ending knee injury could've cost us a coupla flags in the early '70s. As this team doesn't appear to have a minimum games requirement to qualify... he should be in. (Apologies to Jeff Sarau.)

Ramping up the controversy, in fact turning it up to 11...

As great a player as Ross Smith was, the best rover I've seen for St Kilda was Graham Gellie. Like McIntosh, career prematurely ended by a knee injury. This bloke was ahead of his time. Thirty plus possessions a game, and nearly all of them to the advantage of a team mate. Yep, when he got, you knew the next possession would be a St Kilda one as well. (Apologies to Super Duper.)

Only controversial because of your love for the Cowboy mbogo...

Nothing against the great Cowboy, but he's the one who'd have to make way for this bloke... team balance and all... Another career prematurely ended by a knee (seeing a pattern?), aptly described as the Lockett of his day, his loss arguably cost us those extra mid-late '60s flags everyone asks "why didn't we win?"... Bill Stephenson to full forward. This bloke just has to be in.
Actually, I'd put 'Bill into the team' as a plea c/f just a suggestion. He was that good.

Final suggested change... as good as Danny was, I'd clearly rate Bob Murray the better fullback.

And, not forgetting the Lost Soul's... Rod Owen (yep, another knee...) would be better than most in the currently named side... I'd start with Dean Rice's forward line spot...

Oh, and I nearly forgot my mate, old man Harry 'Vic' Cumberland. Still the oldest bloke to play league footy at 43 (eat your heart Harves & Fletch ). Vic was a champion and also better than most of those Lost Souls. (But maybe he doesn't qualify coz he saw the light and came to us from Melbourne?)



And finally, an assessment. Looking at the two sides, both have powerful forward lines, but after that... several blokes who would be at best 'good' players in the Lost Soul's defence - that St kilda forward line would slaughter them. As for the benches..., the Lost Soul's bench is, at best, ordinary.


Anyway, let the debate rage...

[mbogo]

Well, Dave, you obviously have a big interest in our legends from the late 70s/early 80s. However, I am not sure that, as good as they are, that they would be better than some of the others.
Firstly, an embarassing omission - because he was the first name I had in mind - but forgot to drop him into the centre until I noticed at lunchtime - Lennie to the middle of course. Would Greg Burns/Glenn Elliot knock Dal off the wing with raw skill? - it is probably a mute point - Burnsie would knock him clean OUT of the park!
I started with Bob at FB and take your point - I just loved Danny's passion - and he can rally the troops from the bench.
It looks like a goal kicking Bonanza ... I have a feeling that after Bob Murray, Barry Lawrence and Danny have had a go at Plugger - the Cowboy will be moved to full-back after half time. Then Roo can drop into the goal square and Dave Mac can be at CHF.

A note on GT - he is a player for the Lost Souls but Coach for the Saints! Go figure!

Rules:
SAINTS
Players - can come to the Saints from elsewhere but MUST finish with us and play more with us.
Coaches - can come from elsewhere (eg: as a player - but finish career with us)
LOST SOULS
Start with the Saints - and leave for another club.

6 Interchange players
Nominations are difficult to justify for players outside living memory.

New teams:

Saints
Howell Murray Lawrence
Barker Fisher Griffiths
G Burns Hayes Watson
Baldock Riewoldt McNamara
Burke Neale G Young
R Smith Harvey Morrow

Int: Frawley, Roberts, Ross, Loewe, Milne, Cumberland

Coach: GT/Alves


Lost Souls

Guerra D Wakelin S Wakelin
Thomas Perovic Besanko
Winmar Stewart Eicke
Hall Cazaly Davis
Rice Lockett Everitt
Ball Greene Ditterich

Int: Z Dawson, M Lappin, C O'Brien, J Smith, Sziller, Shanahan

Coach: Jeans/Lyon

[Dave McNamara]

Hi mbogo, I still reckon Bill Stephenson has to be in the side.

With all due respect to those blokes, he was an out and out champion, the Plugger of his day, and a better player than at least 7 of those currently in there, and probably the equal to most of the others.

But, after reading your rules (what, there's rules!?!) I can make it easy for you...

Melb:176 games.
St K: 50 games... so Vic C goes to join the Lost Souls and in comes Bill S.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vic_Cumberland

And that's a good thing. As you've pointed out, the Cowboy just has to be in there to stand Plugger. That alone would be worth seeing...

Also, before I forget, thank you for fitting Burnsy in.

I also reckon that Rocket Rod Owen was better than at least 13 of your current Lost Souls... and had the potential to top most of the others (sigh...)

My final comment mbogo is to say that all my pleas and suggestions (and anyone else's) are just that... I reckon as the creator of this idea, you should have the ultimate say in the personel of the sides... even if that means also copping any flak...

PS: I still reckon the St Kilda side is strong everywhere, the Lost Souls only strong from the centre line forward... so easy win to St kilda..., and easier still once Bill Stephenson gets a gig.

[mbogo]

Big Bill - aye - that is kinda funny and I do like your logic, Dave. Bill was one of the reasons I started following the Saints - coz I am from Gippsland and Bill ended up a Mayor down there - lol - Loewe has to be dropped.
Rod Owen - yeah at least on the bench.
Cumberland is a Saint via the rules - as he ended with us and played more with us
and it looks like it is just us - so we can end with these changes I suppose - would love to hear the commentary - especially wherte Thomas comes over from the Lost Souls and starts coaching during the half-time break - before returning - and getting a blast from Jeansie to mind Riewoldt!
The Lost Souls lack depth - although - Stewie to Winmar to Lockett could be deadly - he has to kick 12!
Where can the Saints get 20 goals from to win?
Will Lyon shut down the LS in the last quarter with defensive manouvres when they are 3 goals in front? Yes!

Stewie gets tired after the 3/4 time smoko - and Plugger finishes his bourbon - and just starts to get angry - no one goes near him ...

Bill S has come on and kicked 3 in the last ...
Hayes and Harvey are still running at the end - in fact they do 15 laps of honour just for fun!
SAINTS by 1 point ... McNamara kicks the last goal - a 90 metre place kick after Perovic punches him in the head at the centre bounce - with neither of them near the ball!

FINAL teams:

Saints
Howell Murray Lawrence
Barker Fisher Griffiths
G Burns Hayes Watson
Baldock Riewoldt McNamara
Burke Neale G Young
R Smith Harvey Morrow

Int: Frawley, Roberts, Ross, Stephenson, Milne, Cumberland

Coach: GT/Alves


Lost Souls

Guerra D Wakelin S Wakelin
Thomas Perovic Besanko
Winmar Stewart Eicke
Hall Cazaly Davis
Owen Lockett Everitt
Ball Greene Ditterich

Int: Z Dawson, M Lappin, Rae, J Smith, Rice, Trott

Coach: Jeans/Lyon